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Tom
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   Posted 12/14/2010 12:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just picked up John Loftus' book by this title. I'd actually love to read and discuss my way through it with a few others.
 
Tom


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One Love
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   Posted 12/14/2010 12:33 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/

Check out Loftus' "Who Am I and What Are My Goals" section.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/14/2010 11:36:49 AM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 12/14/2010 12:49 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Heck, I'll join. Sounds like a cool read. How about we get a copy for Greg, too?


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 12/14/2010 12:55 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
As I read this blogpost where Loftus talks about his book...I thought about two things...no, three...

1) Looking at his resume, it seems his Christian education and experience is THOROUGHLY Western in it's approach. In the book, I will be looking for how much he engages Eastern Christian experience...AND how he views Grace. Very, VERY important.

2) Some quotes...


Alexei Nesteruk
Light from the East: Theology, Science, and the Eastern Orthdox Tradition
Ch. 3: What Makes Theology Unique Among Sciences--The Patristic Vision versus Modern Understanding
"The Inevitability of Mysticism"

Pages 44-48

"...the eastern tradition has never made a sharp distinction between mysticism and theology; between personal experience of the divine mysteries and the dogma affirmed by the Church...Far from being mutually opposed, theology and mysticism support and complete each other. One is impossible without the other. If the mystical experience is a personal working out of the content of the common faith, theology is an expression, for the profit of all, of that which can be experienced by everyone...There is, therefore, no Christian mysticism without theology; but above all, there is no theology without mysticism. Mysticism is...the perfecting and crown of all theology: as theology par excellence.
Vladimir Lossky

*****************************

"Just as mysticism divorced from theology becomes subjective and heretical, so theology when it is not mystical, degenerates into an arid scholasticism, 'academic' in the bad sense of the word."
Kallistos Ware

*****************************

Nesteruk himself...

"If teaching in words is possible in principle, how then can we teach (as we do with different university subjects) the experience of ecclesial life, the experience of knowing God through personal participation? This probably can be done through learning about and teaching the experience of saints, who are, according to Gregory Palamas, the only true theologians and who must be trusted. Not everyone can be a theologian, not everyone can teach theology, and theology cannot be taught to everyone, every subject. The trust in saints assumes two things: asceticism and education. A person who learns theology must be educated, tested, and involved in purification."

3) I have to wonder.  If Loftus had experienced God directly in his heart, in the I-Thou covenant of love...what power would his logically framed arguments pose to that direct experience of God's love?

Hmmmm....thinking of Thomas Aquinas, of all people...


In 1272 Thomas took leave from the University of Paris when the Dominicans from his home province called upon him to establish a studium generale wherever he liked and staff it as he pleased. He chose to establish the institution in Naples, and moved there to take his post as regent master. He took his time at Naples to work on the third part of the Summa while giving lectures on various religious topics. On 6 December 1273 Thomas was celebrating the Mass of St. Nicholas when, according to some, he heard Christ speak to him. Christ asked him what he desired, being pleased with his meritorious life. Thomas replied "Only you Lord. Only you." After this exchange something happened, but Thomas never spoke of it or wrote it down. Because of what he saw, he abandoned his routine and refused to dictate to his socius Reginald of Piperno. When Reginald begged him to get back to work, Thomas replied: "Reginald, I cannot, because all that I have written seems like straw to me."(mihi videtur ut palea). What exactly triggered Thomas's change in behavior is believed to be some kind of supernatural experience of God.

 


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/14/2010 12:06:52 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 12/14/2010 1:21 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Loftus himself...

I think I am helping to change the religious landscape as it is. I'm already doing what most PhD students wish they could do, make an impact. My target audience is the university student or the intelligent educated person in the pew. Targeting that audience will make the most lasting impact on the religious landscape. My goal is to use what I've learned to bring solid scholarship down to my target audience.

...

So, here I am debunking Christianity, something that has such a wide-diversity of opinion among Christians themselves that I typically am told I never understood true Christianity, or that I was never a true Christian in the first place. Liberals say I'm ignorant too, not knowing that I used to be a liberal for about six years before I became an agnostic for another six years before I became an atheist in 2005. I know what it is to be a liberal and to argue like a liberal. I just choose to target evangelicals, that's all. Liberals offer a milquetoast version of religion that can be safely ignored for the most part, except as they are enablers for the more dangerous versions of the Christian faith.

Doing philosophy is much more respectable since Christians can engage in that activity and not feel as threatened. You want to get respect? Talk philosophy. Do it well and Christians will love the discussion back and forth. You want beaten up?...then try to change the religious landscape like I do. I get beaten up by almost all sides at least some of the time, sometimes by ignorant people who think they know more than I do. Maybe they do in some cases but they attack me as if I don't know jack.

I know what I'm doing even if Christians think I'm ignorant and even if some atheists don't appreciate why I argue the way I do, since I'm trying to reach out to Christians in ways they can best understand. Other atheists might distance themselves from me because they think I'm a militant. But why am I a militant just because I'm arguing in the best manner I know in order to change the religious landscape? Don't other atheists hope to do this? I'm just sharing what I've learned. If I didn't then all the years I studied Christianity would pretty much be a waste.

There are a great many people who still don't know of my work who could benefit from it. But I'll continue doing what I do in hopes can change the religious landscape one person at a time.

I am not alone in what I'm doing. Others like the scholars who have written chapters for my anthologies know exactly what needs to be done. I'm so glad they understand and are lending their voices in our common cause.

----------------------

He's smart.  He's specifically trying to target evangelical Christians who are university students or educated in order to DE-CHRISTIANIZE them...so that he can influence the future of the "religious landscape" particularly the future of evangelical Christianity.  He WANTS to make this mark...along with others.

Dang.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/14/2010 12:26:24 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 12/14/2010 1:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This guy is just like Dan Barker and Robert Price.  Quite interesting. Wow.  See if I can't get the book today...
 
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Tom
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   Posted 12/14/2010 2:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I read the intro and first chapter and wasn't very impressed. But it looks like later in the book he gets into more sustained arguments. Looks interesting. When you read his intro you see that two of the three reasons that motivated his abandonment of faith are just emotional. That wasn't encouraging, but we'll see what's he's got.

I just read through a long engagement of his with several others. He has a condescending and belittling attitude toward religious believers and an inflated opinion of himself and his books. And that's hard to put up with for long.

Tom


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One Love
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   Posted 12/14/2010 2:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I feel ya, man. I already started getting vibes when I saw that he was linked up with Internet Infidels, the online atheist network. Sheesh. I've been on them since the COOLBOARD days...and I've never seen one that HASN'T been condescending like that. Honestly.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/14/2010 1:13:57 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 12/14/2010 2:10 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
He's going all out too. Check it...

The 2011 Debunking Christianity Challenge
By John W. Loftus at 11/26/2010

He's really trying to crush evangelical Christianity JUST LIKE Price and Barker!  But that's part of the problem: I KNOW how much of a dearth of Eastern Christianity that both Price AND Barker have. 
 
That's not encouraging, either.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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Tom
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   Posted 12/14/2010 2:11 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Evidently all the militant atheists think John is the cat's meow. I wouldn't mind going through it.

Tom


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One Love
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   Posted 12/14/2010 2:13 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'd like to go through it with you. And it really would be good to look at it in line with Greg and Paul's latest tome about Jesus. Anyone else?


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 12/14/2010 2:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
Evidently all the militant atheists think John is the cat's meow.

Ain't just them, though. There seems to be some Christian thinkers that think it's fairly tight, too...


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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Tom
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   Posted 12/14/2010 3:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Let me know when you have your copy. We can start a thread on it and discuss our way through it.

Tom


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BBBCanada
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   Posted 12/14/2010 10:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
www.tektonics.org/ezine/1personal.html Here is an article by an otherwise "neutral" source.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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