--the Authority of Moses as Prophet of God and "ground" of the Torah.
--Jesus (Isa) as God-sanctioned faithful "brother" within the "Children of Israel" and Prophet of God to the same.

and from that...

--The Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4-9)
--Leviticus 19:9-18
--The belief that Allah is Compassionate, Merciful, Gracious, and Loving, per the Quran.
--The belief that Jesus proclaimed 1-3 as a faithful messenger and servant of Allah per the Quran.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

 

***********************

 

 

 

Tell me that wouldn't be God "reigning" in human beings.

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Post Edited (One Love) : 2/6/2011 6:55:11 PM (GMT-6)

 

2) If any Muslim wanted to argue that only Muslims are "neighbors" to other Muslims, I'd ask about Surah 29:80-83...

Argue not with the People of the Book except in the fairest manner, unless it be those of them that are utterly unjust. Say to them: “We believe in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to you. One is our God and your God; and we are those who submit ourselves to Him.”

I'd ask: Given this passage of the Koran, are the "People of the Book" not "your people"? They'd have to be because, according to the passage, the "People of the Book" have the SAME GOD as followers of Islam.  But then there's also Surah 4:36...

 

 

As I'm understanding it, the "near neighbor" is someone who's known, a relative.  The "neighbor farther away" is the not known, not a relative, a stranger.  Then there's Surah 2:62...

 

 

Taking all this, it would seem to be a far stretch for a knowledgeable Muslim to deny "neighborliness" to Christians and Jews...period.

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Post Edited (One Love) : 2/6/2011 8:47:48 PM (GMT-6)

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

 

They say: IUMN is currently the only Islamic university in the North American Midwest with dedicated staff and professors. My hope is that, once I lay this out concisely enough, I'd like to go over there and see if I could talk to someone about it.  Specifically the Quranic passages and finding out if there is any hadithic resistence to Leviticus 19:9-18 and it's application to the "neighbor."

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

by Robert Alter

and of course...

Islam for Dummies

Went at it for a while. Got lots of notes and stuff. All I can say is O.M.G.  I'm about 98.9% sure it's a wrap.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

 

I just had a great conversation with my dad a bit ago. It just so happened that he wanted to talk about Islam and it's growth. My dad became a Baptist minister about a year ago, and he's growing well! At the same time, he's a bit of a fundamentalist on some things. When it came to Islam, he was disturbed about it's growth, specifically in the Black community in Waco...and he believed that because Muslims denied Jesus being the Son of God, that there was ABSOLUTELY NO common ground between them. He's not anti-Muslim per se. He just felt there could be no real common ground. To him, Muslims and Christians worship a different God (ala John Piper's view). I told him about the "Common Word" idea about the Love of God and Love of Neighbor thing...and he had Piper's response DOWN.

So...

I showed him the stuff that we've been working out here. The Biblical and Quranic texts. The Muslim perspective of Jesus. and Jesus' prophetic activity...specifically, Jesus reification of Deut 6:4-8 and Leviticus 19:9-18. It took a while to get through everything. But you know what? HE SAW IT. He really did. It seemed resistant at first...but I kept on with the logic of it all. I gave him websites to look through cause he was open. But HE SAW IT. I asked him after everything was explained... "Do you see any reason for a Christian or Muslim to deny what we've been talking about?" He said "Well, as you're describing it, no, I can't." He said he had a lot to think about.

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!

 

 

Also, I called the Islamic University of Minnesota...and spoke to nice professor who is willing to see me and talk. He couldn't make it happen this Tuesday...but we set an appointment for next Tuesday. He said he'd love to explore whatever issues I wished. FRIGGIN SWEET!!!!

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

 

Again, pointing Muslims to what the Old and New Testaments say doens't carry any weight immediately because they accuse Jews and Christians of tampering with their texts to erase all evidence of prophetic anticipations regarding Muhammad. It's a ludicrous accusation given the Quranic passages, but very very few Muslims read these passages carefully and objectively. It's "popular" to maintain the myth that the Quran claims we corrupted our texts and that they are no longer trustworthy. So quoting them doens't carry the weight it OUGHT to carry.

One fruitful avenue of study and conversation is noting that given the Islamic view of the Quran as the eternal Word of God, the comparison between our religions is NOT between their book and our book (Quran and Bible) and between their prophet and our prophet (Muhammad and Jesus). No. The real comparison (which Muslims have to see) is between:

Their book and our prophet (Quran and Jesus as divine Word)

Never mind everything else. To them our Scriptures are far more like their Hadith (traditional sayings that are not as inspired as the Quran).

Islam went through an early debate over the nature of the Quran (its text). Is it created or uncreated? Those arguing the latter won and became the Orthodox. So the Quran (its pure Arabic form) exists eternally in God. And they believe THIS eternal form/Word was finally incarnated (they dn't use that word, but the eternal word was "given" or "let down" via "inspiration" from heaven to Muhammad) an the Quran we hold in our hands, and touch and read.

Yep.

Tom

Faith-grounded "neighborliness" between Christians and Muslims grounded in their commonly-held Prophet/Messenger, Jesus (Son of Mary) sent from his God (and our God)--the one True God--to the "Children of Israel" to "confirm" the truth in the Torah, commonly-held to hold authoritative guidance and revelation from God.

I'm just saying there is authentic common ground that Christians and Muslims share...which forms the necessary ground of "neighborliness" to have FURTHER DISCUSSION about things like the "Eternal Kalimat" of God: Is it the Quran or Jesus (or both???)

*********************************

Again, pointing Muslims to what the Old and New Testaments say doens't carry any weight immediately because they accuse Jews and Christians of tampering with their texts to erase all evidence of prophetic anticipations regarding Muhammad. It's a ludicrous accusation given the Quranic passages, but very very few Muslims read these passages carefully and objectively. It's "popular" to maintain the myth that the Quran claims we corrupted our texts and that they are no longer trustworthy. So quoting them doens't carry the weight it OUGHT to carry.

Well, someone needs to call that to their attention, don't you think? And anyways...It's not necessarily a matter of pointing them to the Bible, per se. It's a matter of asking them to take their belief in Jesus as Messiah of the "Children of Israel" to it's furthest conclusions possible. Basically, it's asking them to be better, more-informed Muslims concerning who Isa is as what he affirmed about the Torat and Injeel.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

 

Islamispeace:

 

and then I responded...

 

 

Thanks very much, Islamispeace.  I really appreciate the response.  Much!  

You said:
I think what you have said makes sense but it is nothing new.  There are many similarities between Islam and Christianity.  No one will deny that.  The problem is that the differences are in the most important issues, such as the status of Jesus.  Let's face it.  Similarities in accepting the authority of Moses (pbuh) as a prophet or agreeing that Allah is merciful and loving is trumped by the differences is the way we look at Jesus (pbuh).  Christians worships Jesus as God.  This is blasphemy to Muslims.  Conversely, that Muslims deny Jesus as God is blasphemous to Christians.  These are grave differences and they unfortunately trump the similarities.

I'm aware of the grave differences, and frankly, they'll probably be here to stay.  I mentioned those as well.  However, my issue is the issue of faith-grounded "neighborliness" between the faithful members of the "People(s) of the Book."

The Torah of Moses and the Gospel of Jesus are mentioned here as scriptures that were sent by God for the purpose of guidance.  As such, Muslims are required, by faith, to believe in the unaltered, original Torah and Gospel as books of revelation.  However, emphasis must be placed on the word "original" because Muslims believe that the Torah and Gospel were altered by the hands of men in later generations.

He's talking about some means of "tahrif" of the Torah that's been taken to supposedly obscure things in it, right?  Well, I think that's a major question I have: Is the message of Leviticus 19:9-18) one of the things that has been claimed to have been "corrupted" by Jews or Christians? Is there any Islamic authoritative source that basically says that the subject matter is Leviticus 19:9-18 of the Torah is "corrupted" and is therefore not applicable for Muslim faith? There is no way that the Torah can just be totally thrown out of hand.  I've not seen anything that says that absolutely every verse in the Torah is unusable for guidance by Allah.  (If there is such a thing, I would love for you brothers and sisters to show me such.  that'd be so helpful! )

It appears to me that if there is no justifiable reason to "throw out" Leviticus 19:9-18 (and it's relatively simple injunctions about not stealing, not lying, not promoting injustice, etc), then it would seem that self-reflective knowledgeable Muslims are just as faith-bound by that Torah-truth as Christians are. 

Let me place Leviticus 19 stuff here...

*****************************

And then I posted this section of "A Common Word between Us and You"...

 

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Post Edited (One Love) : 2/9/2011 11:03:38 AM (GMT-6)

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Quran says in Surah 3:1-4

(3:1) Alif, Lam, Mim.

(3:2) Allah, the Ever-Living, the Self-Subsisting, Who sustains the entire order of the universe - there is no God but He.

(3:3) He has revealed this Book to you, setting forth the truth and confirming the earlier Books, and earlier He revealed the Torah and Gospel

(3:4) for the guidance of mankind;1 and He has also revealed the Criterion (to distinguish truth from falsehood). A severe chastisement lies in store for those who deny the signs of Allah. Allah is All-Mighty; He is the Lord of Retribution.

Commentary by Maulana Maududi

1. The Torah is generally taken to signify the first five books of the Old Testament, and the Injil (Gospel), to mean the four Gospels of the New Testament, even though those books form a part of it. This has sometimes caused people to wonder if these books were indeed revealed by God. If they are accepted as revealed, one may wonder if the Qur'an really verifies their contents as this verse says. The fact is, however, that the Torah is not identical with the first five books of the Old Testament even though those books form a part of the Torah. Likewise, the Injil is not identical with the four Gospels of the New Testament.

The fact is that the Torah, in the Qur'anic usage, signifies the revelations made to Moses (peace be on him), in about forty years, from the time he was appointed a Prophet until his death. These include the Ten Commandments', which were handed over to him inscribed on stone tablets. Moses took down the rest of the revealed injunctions and handed over one copy to each of the twelve tribes of Israel, and one copy to the Levites for safe keeping. It is this book which was known as the Torah and it existed until the first destruction of Jerusalem. The copy entrusted to the Levites was put beside the Ark of the Covenant along with the Commandment tablets, and the Israelites knew it as the Torah. The Jews, however, neglected the Book: during the reign of Josiah the King of Judah the Temple of Solomon was under repair and the high priest, Hilkiah, chanced to find the Book lying in the construction area. He gave it to the King's secretary, Shaphan, who in turn took it to the King as if it were a strange find (see 2 Kings 22: 8-13).

Hence, when the Babylonian King, Nebuchadnezzar, conquered Jerusalem and razed it and the Temple of Solomon to the ground, the Israelites lost for ever the few original copies of the Torah which they possessed, and which they had consigned to obscurity. At the time of Ezra the priest, some Israelites returned from captivity in Babylon, and when Jerusalem was rebuilt the entire history of Israel, which now comprises the first seventeen books of the Old Testament, was recorded by Ezra with the assistance of some other elders of the community. Four of these books, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, consist of a biographical narrative of Moses. In this biography those verses of the Torah available to Ezra and the other elders are also recorded and in the contexts in which they were revealed. The present Torah, therefore, comprises those fragments of the original book which are interspersed throughout the biography of Moses (composed in the manner described above).

In locating these fragments of the original Torah there are certain expressions which help us. These are interspersed between the different pieces of biographical narration and usually open with words such as: 'Then the Lord said to Moses', and 'Moses said, the Lord your God commands you.' These expressions, then, are fragments of the original Torah. When the biographical narration re-commences, however, we can be sure that the fragment of the true Torah has concluded. Wherever authors and editors of the Bible have added anything of their own accord, by way of either elaboration or elucidation, it has become very difficult for an ordinary reader to distinguish the original from the explanatory additions. Those with insight into Divine Scripture, however, do have the capacity to distinguish between the original revealed fragments and the later, human interpolations.

It is these scattered fragments of the original revealed Book which the Qur'an terms as the Torah, and it is these which it confirms. When these fragments are compared with the Qur'an, there is no difference between the two as regards the fundamental teachings. Whatever differences exist relate to legal matters and are of secondary importance. Even today a careful reader can appreciate that the Torah and the Qur'an have sprung from one and the same Divine source.

Likewise, Injil signifies the inspired orations and utterances of Jesus (peace be on him), which he delivered during the last two or three years of his life in his capacity as a Prophet. There are no certain means by which we can definitively establish whether or not his statements were recorded during his lifetime. It is possible that some people took notes of them and that some followers committed them to memory. After a period of time, however, several treatises on the life of Jesus were written. The authors of these treatises recorded, in connection with the biographical account, those sayings of his which they had received from the previous generation of co-religionists, in the form of either oral traditions or written notes about events in his life. As a result the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are not identical with the Injil. Rather, the Injil consists of those statements by Jesus which form part of these Gospels. Unfortunately we have no means of distinguishing the fragments of the original Injil from the pieces written by the authors themselves. All we can say is that only those sections explicitly attributed to Jesus, for example in statements such as: 'And Jesus said' and 'And Jesus taught', constitute the true Injil. It is the totality of such fragments which is designated as the Injil by the Qur'an, and it is the teachings contained in these fragments that the Qur'an confirms. If these fragments are put together and compared with the teachings of the Qur'an one notices very few discrepancies between the two, and any discrepancies that are found can be resolved easily by unbiased reflection.

**********************************

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

 

It's funny.  I was thinking about John Piper's Youtube thing about the "Common Word" Christian Response...

 

John Piper was so focused on the possible misrepresentation of the Love of God in the language of the material, it seems that he didn't stop to think that maybe Christians and Muslims share a Prophet and Messenger from God who reified truth from the Torah of Moses (the Great Commandments) that is religiously binding upon them both.

You could tell it didn't register.  Piper was thinking that the essence of the response was on two different Prophets (Jesus and Mohammad) share the value of loving God and neighbor.  And he felt that that was not a true "common ground" because he defines the love of God explicitly with Jesus as God's Crucified and Resurrected Son.  If they can't believe in Jesus as God's Son, they can't believe in the love of God in the same way as us.  But he misses a big point: Muslims and Christians share the same Prophet/Messenger from the same God who declares the same truth from the same sources divinely provided by that same God.  You can't get much more "common ground" than that.

"Smoothing over profound differences..."  "Not honest..."  Hmm...

I do agree with John on one point: Place Jesus/Isa DIRECTLY at the center of the conversation!  But we do so as Jesus/Isa being the Messenger/Prophet of God who commands us to "love one another", confirming the Torah's truth: "love your neighbor as yourself."  When we do that, we are on ACTUAL--not merely perceived--common ground which lead both Christians and Muslims to Jesus/Isa's God...the One True God of Abraham and Moses.

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Post Edited (One Love) : 2/10/2011 12:50:40 AM (GMT-6)