 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > Jesus in Islam (Video) | Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/10/2011 1:39 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Maybe this could change the world...
For with God, nothing shall be impossible.--Luke 1:37
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/10/2011 12:42:58 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/10/2011 1:43 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/11/2011 8:43 AM (GMT -6) | | | From the Islamic discussion site...
Islamispeace:
I pretty much agree with everything you have written and if I understand you correctly, your main point is that there is no reason for Christians and Muslims to be neighborly with each other. Am I right? If so, then I agree wholeheartedly! There is no reason why Christian and Muslim can't get along. But then, there is no reason why Christian and Hindu or Muslim and Buddhist can't get along either. Even though our faiths may be different in many ways, some which are too important to set aside, that does not mean we cannot act kindly towards each other. No one here, and especially myself, would disagree with such an assessment.
YieldedOne:
I'm glad there's agreement! At the same time, I'm actually stating something a lot stronger than that. My point is not merely there there's no religious reason for not being neighborly. My main point is that orthodox Christians and orthodox Muslims are absolutely committed--by FAITH in their own Holy Books and obedience to the Torah-teaching of the Holy Prophet and Messenger of God, Jesus/Isa--to showing "neighborliness" to each other. I want to say this in the strongest possible terms: if what's been said is accepted, then Christians and Muslims cannot fully be in "submission" to God unless they love their neighbors as themselves per faithful obedience to Jesus/Isa's re-affirmation of Torah of Moses. Doing "neighborliness" to the other is essential to proper exercise of Christian and Muslim faith. For Christians and Muslims to refuse to "love the neighbor as the self" --for whatever reason--is to directly contradict God's will as declared by God's Prophet and Messenger, Jesus/Isa. It is to willfully transgress Allah's revealed commandment for human beings. That should be a big no-no for a person of genuine faith...whether Muslim or Christian.
Basically, I'm saying that a person can't be a fully-faithful, orthodox Muslim or Christian without obeying Jesus/Isa's teaching about "loving the neighbor as oneself". What do you think about that statement, IslamisPeace? Agree? Disagree?
Then I put...
'Now I have come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which you dispute. Therefore, fear God and obey me. God, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him -- this is a Straight Way.'
The Words of Jesus/Isa in Surah 43:63-64
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/11/2011 10:27 AM (GMT -6) | | |
More from the Islamic Discussion page...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the thread, "Fundamental Articles of Faith", samirfaithful posted some material from From Hammudat Abd Al-Ati's "Islam in Focus". Among these were 3 I thought very important to this discussion...
**********************************
The true, faithful Muslim believes in the following principal articles of faith:
1. He believes in One God, Supreme and Eternal, Infinite and Mighty, Merciful and Compassionate, Creator and Provider. This belief, in order to be effective, requires complete trust and hope in God, submission to His Will and reliance on His aid. It secures man's dignity and saves him from fear and despair, from guilt and confusion. The reader is invited to see the meaning of Islam as explained above.
2. He believes in all the messengers of God without any discrimination among them. Every known nation had a warner or messenger from God. These messengers were great teachers of the good and true champions of the right. They were chosen by God to teach mankind and deliver His Divine message. They were sent at different times of history and every known nation had one messenger or more. During certain periods two or more messengers were sent by God at the same time to the same nation. The Holy Qur'an mentions the names of twenty-five of them, and the Muslim believes in them all and accepts them as authorized messengers of God. They were, with the exception of Muhammad, known as "national" or local messengers. But their message, their religion, was basically the same and was called ISLAM, because it came from One and the Same Source, namely, God, to serve one and the same purpose, and that is to guide humanity to the Straight Path of God. All the messengers with no exception whatsoever were mortals, human beings, endowed with Divine revelation, and appointed by God to perform certain tasks. Among them Muhammad stands as the Last Messenger and the crowning glory of the foundation of prophethood. This is not an arbitrary attitude, nor is it just a convenient belief. Like all the other Islamic beliefs, it is an authentic and logical truth. Also, it may be useful to mention here the names of some of the great messengers like Noah and Abraham, Ishmael and Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, may the peace and blessings of God be upon them all. The Qur’an commands the Muslims thus:
We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes; and that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and that which was given to all prophets from their Lord. We make no discrimination between one and another of them, and we bow to God (2:136, cf. 3:84; 4:163-165; 6:84-87).
3. The true Muslim believes, as a result of article two, in all the scriptures and revelations of God. They were the guiding light which the messengers received to show their respective peoples the Right Path of God. In the Qur’an a special reference is made to the books of Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus. But long before the revelation of the Qur’an to Muhammad some of those books and revelations had been lost or corrupted, others forgotten, neglected, or concealed. The only authentic and complete book of God in existence today is the Qur’an. In principle, the Muslim believes in the previous books and revelations. (YO's Note: The Torat and the Injeel) But where are their complete and original versions? They could be still at the bottom of the Dead Sea, and there may be more Scrolls to be discovered. Or perhaps more information about them will become available when the Christian and Jewish archaeologists reveal to the public the complete original findings of their continued excavations in the Holy Land. For the Muslim, there is no problem of that kind. The Qur’an is in his hand complete and authentic. Nothing of it is missing and no more of it is expected. Its authenticity is beyond doubt, and no serious scholar or thinker has ventured to question its genuineness. The Qur’an was made so by God Who revealed it and made it incumbent upon Himself to protect it against interpolation and corruption of all kinds. Thus it is given to the Muslims as the standard or criterion by which all the other books are judged. So whatever agrees with the Qur’an is accepted as Divine truth, and whatever differs from the Qur’an is either rejected or suspended. God says: 'Verily We have, without doubt, sent down the Qur’an, and We will assuredly guard it’ (15: 9; cf. 2:75- 79; 5: 1 3-14, 41, 45, 47; 6:91 ; 41:43).
**********************************
Yielded One's thoughts:
If it is indeed true that Deuteronomy 6:4-6 and Leviticus 19:9-18 are good candididates for authentic Torat and Injeel material (according to the specifications of the Maulana Maududi commentary mentioned earlier in this thread), then the "true Muslim" (from Abd Al-Ati's perspective) MUST believe in those passages as genuine revelation from Allah and live them out faithfully.
See what I mean?
------------------------------------------------
If I'm being redundant, it's just to make sure that my point is getting accross well. Really trying to sew this one up tight!  Unless there is some specific Quranic text or authoritative hadith that disallows the Shema and Leviticus 19, there is no getting around this...at all.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/11/2011 9:31:35 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/11/2011 12:44 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/11/2011 2:47 PM (GMT -6) | | Two Christianity Today articles...
Egypt's Christians After Mubarak
They were protesting a church attack when the Tahrir Square demonstrations began. Political change likely won't undo deep tensions with Muslims.
Cornelis Hulsman in Cairo, with additional reporting by Dale Gavlak in Amman, Jordan; posted 2/11/2011 12:09PM
The Son and the Crescent
Bible translations that avoid the phrase "Son of God" are bearing dramatic fruit among Muslims. But that translation has some missionaries and scholars dismayed.
Collin Hansen;posted 2/04/2011 09:10AM
and then...
The official Muslim Brotherhood website.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/11/2011 4:07 PM (GMT -6) | | | Awwwwwww, sooki sOOKi now!!
------------------------------------
YieldedOne: Basically, I'm saying that a person can't be a fully-faithful, orthodox Muslim or Christian without obeying Jesus/Isa's teaching about "loving the neighbor as oneself". What do you think about that statement, IslamisPeace? Agree? Disagree?
Islamispeace: Yes, I agree. You are absolutely right.
------------------------------------------
It's on like Donkey Kong, baby. Great first steps. Feelin' really confident about this! Next, it's the profs at the Islamic University of Minnesota on Tuesday. Once it's past them...hey, who knows?
Ooh. I know. Maybe I'll do a video response to John Piper's YouTube talk about this whole thing...and contact him a Bethlehem Baptist to watch it with invitation to dialogue about it. He says there's no real common ground, I say there is.
Yeah...that would be fun.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/11/2011 3:18:31 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/12/2011 4:21 PM (GMT -6) | | | So...Egypt and Israel are "neighbors", huh? I wonder what that would mean for them if the Egyptian Christians and Muslims actually practiced this to them.
Hmmm... 
Do y'all think that Barack Obama really reads any mail sent to him? I wonder...
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/12/2011 3:24:06 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/13/2011 10:49 AM (GMT -6) | | | Ok. I'm trying to pare this down a bit. Make it such that the argument can be concisely stated. Two paragraphs. Here goes nuthin...
*************************
Major Point:
Qur'anically speaking, a person cannot be a true, faithful Muslim without obeying Jesus/Isa's Torah-Injeel teaching about "loving the neighbor as oneself".
Discussion of Major Point:
Given all this, if it is true that Deuteronomy 6:4-6 and Leviticus 19:9-18 (The Great Commandments of Jesus ala Matthew 22:34-40) are good candididates for authentic Torat and Injeel material--per meeting the specifications of accepted Islamic commentaries, such as those produced by Maulana Maududi--then, from Abd Al-Ati's perspective and others like Sohaib N. Sultan --, the "true Muslim" absolutely must believe in those passages as genuine revelation from Allah and live them out faithfully. To do otherwise is to implicitly break faith with Allah and rebel against Allah's truth as revealed by a divinely-sent Messenger, Prophet, and Messiah, Isa/Jesus.
Implications of Major Point and Discussion:
Muslims and Christians are bound by mutually-held belief in Jesus/Isa as Allah's Mesenger and Prophet and his teaching of the "Great Commandments" such that both groups are committed by their own holy books to obey Jesus/Isa's commands to "love your neighbor as yourself."
*************************
I think that says it all. Tom? Good enough?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/13/2011 11:57:21 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/13/2011 12:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Super hype.
I had a knowledgeable Muslim co-worker look at my pare-down above and talk to me about it. I told him that I was going to the Islamic University of Minnesota with this...and I wanted some feedback on it before I did. (Dude is in school, hella smart, and I found out that he actually wants to do schooling at the Islamic University of Minnesota! Small world, huh? )After looking at all the links and stuff...he feels like the argument is VERY strong, especially with the Quranic verses and commentaries. He particularly appreciated how Jesus/Isa's Great Commandments quotes dodge the whole "tahrif/corrupted texts" situation. He said that the assertion of possible "tahrif" in interpretation of the Torah (meaning different Bible translations of it) may be an issue. I told him that I'd go ahead and bring a Torah with Masoretic text and, assuming there's a professor there that knows Hebrew, they can translate the Deuteronomy 6 and Leviticus 19 passages themselves. He said that may be a good idea.
I'm so excited...! Pins and friggin needles!!
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/13/2011 11:35:07 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/13/2011 5:18 PM (GMT -6) | | D: Thought of something: Wouldn't it be possible for both Muslims and Christians to worship the God of Jesus/Isa at the same time? To pray to Jesus/Isa's God at the same time in the same place, all in worship before One God. Isn't that possible?
T: What would you propose by attempting it?
Muslims, Christians and Jews share the podium at public prayer events (I'm thinking of 9/11 memorials). I'm cool with that.
I personally would feel uncomfortable joining worship services and breaking bread (and act of worship) with Muslims and calling it "joint worship of the one God" because my worship is trinitarian and Christocentric through and through. Our worship is ONE because our faith is ONE. If you can't drink of the same cup and break bread together, I don't see how you can be said to be "worshipping God togther," but that's just me.
To the extent that Jesus (Jesus AS God, not just Jesus' God) is worshipped, they're duty bound to abhor such a thing. What would be your point in having our worship and theirs occur under the same roof? What would it MEAN to you?
What I'm interested in is having Muslims trust that in Jesus alone God addresses the human condition and that in Jesus (better yet, as Jesus) God meets Muslims and fulfills their truest longing. I'm fine with leaving God in charge of knowing exactly where people stand in true relation to all this, but that doesn't mean we have to be fine with redefining Christian worship of God as inclusive of Muslims OR Muslim worship of God inclusive of Christians.
Tom
KIXYTΘEMTAPost Edited (Tom) : 2/13/2011 4:27:12 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/14/2011 12:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Dude, I'm not thinking of Muslims taking the Eucharist, kissing icons of Christ...or Christians saying the Shahadah, kissing the Black Stone of the Kaaba..or nothin' like that. I was more thinking of a Christian in silent worshipful prostration in "prayer of the heart" right beside a Muslim in silent worshipful prostration in "dhikr", both praying to the God of Jesus/Isa at the same place at the same time.
I can see that easy.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/13/2011 11:34:14 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/15/2011 12:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
If the worship isn't corporate and 'one', then I guess I don't understand why you're setting your sites on it, or what the appeal is. OK so we take out true worship, the elements, mutually affirmation of faith, Christcenteredness, etc., and you get Muslims and Christians under the same roof not saying anything but doing their own worship in their own head. What's so neat about this picture just because they're under the same roof?
1) The "prayer of the heart" and "dikhr" is much more then doing "worship in your own head." You're statement's a little reductionist, in my opinion, bro. It's the essential "first movement" of the double-movement of the spirit in relationship to the Uncreated Creator. Unless you are going to say that it doesn't count at all to God because they don't see Jesus as God Himself in the person of the Eternal Son. I'm not willing to say that. But that's just me.
2) The "appeal", I suppose, is that there are degrees of "oneness" that Christians and Muslims can experience together. Especially when the focus is the God of Jesus/Isa. We already know the degress of "difference": the Trinity (including Jesus as Eternal Word/Son of God). To Muslims, anything that elevates the person Jesus to deity (basically being of one "nature" with God) is seen as being "shirk"...period. To Christians, the person of Jesus being the Only Begotten Eternal Son who took on human nature is the ground of human salvation, transformation, and transiguration; a sine qua non of the Christian faith. So, those ideas are gonna clash...obviously. That's gonna have to be something we're gonna have to work out. At the same time, if there is a "degree of oneness" which Muslims and Christians can operate with "good conscience before God", then they can and should do so. My thought is this: If there is a possible scenario where Muslims and Christians can have authentic common ground from whence to worshippfully relate to God, we should be creative in seeking and actualizing those opportunities.
If what I've been saying is true, then both Muslims and Christians have authentic common ground:
Faith-grounded obedience to the "Great Commandments" of Jesus, a fully-God-authorized "prophet", "teacher" and "messenger" to the "Children of Israel" who faithfully and accurately revealed and declared the will and truth of God/Allah for humanity in his "confirmation" of the Torah of Moses in his own God-revealed Gospel.
What authentic, informed Christian can deny this is true? What authentic, informed Muslim can deny this is true?
So, what my mind says is this: If a Muslim and a Christian are at the same place at the same time, even in the midst of their differences, they can BOTH pray to and worship the "One God" of Jesus/Isa, the All-Compassionate, All Loving Uncreated Creator. And they could do that with completely intellectual and conscience integrity. And that "breathing in" of the worship to the One Uncreated Creator empowers us to "breathe out" in "loving our neighbors as ourselves." You can't tell me that that wouldn't be better all around for Muslim/Christian dialogues on any level.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/15/2011 11:48:35 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/15/2011 12:52 PM (GMT -6) | | Here's another thing that just seems to make rational sense to me.
Whenever a Muslim or a Christian would talk about the God of Jesus, Moses, and Abraham, there is no language confusion there: all participants in the conversation KNOW that we are talking about the SAME God.
Think about it. Simple test.
Go up to a Muslim and ask "Is your God the God of Jesus, Moses, and Abraham?"
Go up to a Christian and ask "Is your God the God of Jesus, Moses, and Abraham?"
actually just for fun...ask an orthodox Jew "Is your God the God of Jesus, Moses, and Abraham?"
How do you think most of the answers would go...and why?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/15/2011 1:28 PM (GMT -6) | | Can't stop watchin' this.
and reading this too.
Look at one of the questions from the Yale thing:
Shouldn't the basis of our dialogue with Muslims center on the person and work of Christ rather than the command to love God and neighbor?
If you think about it, this very question ASSUMES that the two ideas can actually be separable. But wasn't part of the person and work of Christ to be God's Prophet to Israel who SPECIFICALLY 1) reified the Great Commandments from the Torah and 2) made a "new commandment" that was restatement of those Great Commandments: "Love one another."
The idea that loving God and neighbor wasn't involved in Jesus' "person and work" is a HUGE ISSUE for Christians, as I see it!
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/15/2011 12:49:56 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/15/2011 5:02 PM (GMT -6) | | D: 1) The "prayer of the heart" and "dikhr" is much more than doing "worship in your own head." You're statement's a little reductionist, in my opinion, bro. It's the essential "first movement" of the double-movement of the spirit in relationship to the Uncreated Creator. Unless you are going to say that it doesn't count at all to God because they don't see Jesus as God Himself in the person of the Eternal Son. I'm not willing to say that. But that's just me.
T: I have no grounds for reassuring anyone (Muslim or Hindu or whomever) in their journey that they’re OK apart from Christ. I honestly don’t know what the TRUTH is about the state of a Muslim’s heart when they do dhikir. How far does it get the Muslim? Does it reconcile Muslims to God? Are Muslims who practice dhikir saved? I don’t see anything in what I believe that ASSURES me such a thing is possible. I can hope. I can believe that whatever is lacking in content where genuine faith and works righteousness is abandoned that God will take care of it. But there’s no way I can INTERPRET dhikir as a Christian and say just what it does or doesn’t get a Muslim.
D: 2) … At the same time, if there is a "degree of oneness" which Muslims and Christians can operate with "good conscience before God", then they can and should do so.
T: Sure, I can sit and dialogue with anybody in good conscience and mutual respect.
D: My thought is this: If there is a possible scenario where Muslims and Christians can have authentic common ground from whence to worshippfully relate to God, we should be creative in seeking and actualizing those opportunities.
T: I’m just saying that apart from Christ Christians have no ground for saying God is "worshipfully related to" (as I understand true worship) by anyone. It’s one thing to say we have grounds for mutual respect and dialogue. But dialogue and mutual worship are different things. When I step outside the grace of the gospel, I can’t KNOW that my Muslim friend is worshipfully relating to God. We can speculate and hope and wonder and in the end leave it to God. But none of this gets us a kind of joint worship service (or "worshipfully relating to God together" ) as I see it.
D: If what I've been saying is true, then both Muslims and Christians have authentic common ground: Faith-grounded obedience to the "Great Commandments" of Jesus, a fully-God-authorized "prophet", "teacher" and "messenger" to the "Children of Israel" who faithfully and accurately revealed and declared the will and truth of God/Allah for humanity in his "confirmation" of the Torah of Moses in his own God-revealed Gospel.
What authentic, informed Christian can deny this is true? What authentic, informed Muslim can deny this is true?
T: The question is what grounds Christians have for calling religious behavior “faith-grounded obedience to the Great Commandments of Jesus” which also rejects Christ.
I totally appreciate the passion to find common ground. I’m cool. Been finding it and trying to stand on it with Muslims for a long time. But I don’t CALL it “worship” and I don’t assume anything about the TRUE state of my Muslim friend’s heart based on his willingness to concede that Jesus was a prophet sent from God. Believing that Jesus was just a man but a great prophet doesn’t get you through the “first movement.”
I hope I’m making myself clear. I love dialogue and common ground. But I can’t say that what Muslims and Christians have in common is sufficient to ground their “mutually and worshipfully relating to God together.” That’s extremely powerful language and I don’t know how to extent it to other persons outside the gospel…
…so help me God!
D: So, what my mind says is this: If a Muslim and a Christian are at the same place at the same time, even in the midst of their differences, they can BOTH pray to and worship the "One God" of Jesus/Isa, the All-Compassionate, All Loving Uncreated Creator. And they could do that with completely intellectual and conscience integrity. And that "breathing in" of the worship to the One Uncreated Creator empowers us to "breathe out" in "loving our neighbors as ourselves." You can't tell me that that wouldn't be better all around for Muslim/Christian dialogues on any level.
T: It’s about the integrity of my ecclesiology and what I think the “gospel” is. I don’t know how to say people really WORSHIP God outside of embracing the gospel. I don’t think you do either. We don’t have grounds for offering Muslims a gospel-less avenue of worship to God. At best we can say that God always embraces human sincerety, desperate trust and hope, etc. But what working that out will look like we must leave to God in the eschaton and (I argue) assume that what it will look like will include filling in the blanks so that sincere but uninformed minds can fully engage the truth that saves. But Muslims by in large don't fit this category. They're not uninformed (necessarily). They are many times VERY informed and determine to reject the gospel. I personally don't know how to evaluate whatever sincerity or faith is ostensibly present after that point, so that I'm able to say of an informed Christ-rejecting worldview that it nevertheless connects worshipfully to God.
D: Whenever a Muslim or a Christian would talk about the God of Jesus, Moses, and Abraham, there is no language confusion there: all participants in the conversation KNOW that we are talking about the SAME God.
T: We’re TALKING about the same God. Fine. But if the gospel redeems us and empowers us to worship God, then Muslims and Christians are not truly WORSHIPPING the same God.
T
KIXYTΘEMTAPost Edited (Tom) : 2/15/2011 4:10:13 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Asher
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 477
| Posted 2/15/2011 5:30 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm not necessarily disagreeing with Tom when I say...
...I have found more real communion with SOME Muslims than I have with SOME Christians. | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/15/2011 8:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Much more to say...but for now...
Tom:
The question is what grounds Christians have for calling religious behavior “faith-grounded obedience to the Great Commandments of Jesus” which also rejects Christ.
The grounds of clear principles of Leviticus 19:9-18. Let's just say that a Muslim is genuinely self-consciously trying to actualize the parameters of "loving their neighbor as themselves" in obedience to Isa's Torah-Injeel teaching. Just for the sake of argument.Just following the thoughts: They don't steal, they don't deal falsely with or lie to others. They don't oppress their neighbors. They don't do malice or injustice to their neighbors. Basic Leviticus 19:9-18 stuff. And let's just say, for the sake of argument, that this Muslim is intentional about this being his service to Allah, the One God of Jesus, Abraham and Moses.
If all this is true, we would have no grounds whatsoever to call said religious behavior "faith-grounded obedience to the Great Commandment of Jesus"? None whatsoever, man?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/16/2011 9:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Maybe I can get closer to my concerns here...
When I hear or use the language of "worship" or "faith-based obedience" I'm talking about that manner of relating to God that we have access to by means of the gospel. "Worship" is what we're redeemed in Christ to do and enjoy. In other words, the worship of God is an effect of the gospel. So you can see why I'm not going to agree to use such language to describe what Muslims and Hindus do. I'm trying to think it through from within the logic of the NT proclamation. That proclamation offers the true worship of God to the world.
I'm cool with there being degrees of oneness between Christians and Muslims. Given Islam's historical roots, how could it not share much in common with Judaism and Christianity? But I don't think anything we share in common is sufficient to ground a SHARED WORSHIP of God between the two. That doesn't mean God doesn't have regard for human sincerity wherever he finds it. It just means that we have no ground OUTSIDE THE GOSPEL on which to stand and make claims about what that sincerity equates to, how far it "gets" a Muslim or a Hindu in terms of experiencing right relation to God, etc. Muslims and Hindus bare the divine image, sure. And that image is GOING TO LONG for its original, yes. That's WHY we have a religious impluse at all. But it's not "worship" per se.
I completely appreciate how much sense things can make when you're standing inside particular Quranic texts. But a) the texts are not consistent or always compatible with themselves--Meccan vs Medinan, and b) the Quranic recognition of previous books (OT and NT) is at best a small part of how educated Muslims conceive of themselves in relation to Judaism and Xty. No Muslim I have ever met thinks of him/herself as "self-conconsciously trying to actualize Jesus' Torat/Injil commandments." Jesus doesn't figure in AT ALL practically. It's inconceivable to Muslims (as you find them, not as you might think the Quran depicts the "ideal" Muslim or as you might find some educated Muslims concede it abstractly for the sake of dialogue) that they're obedience to God's will should be consciously connected to anyone but the last and seal of all prophets--Muhammad.
I'm having problems stepping inside what it is you're proposing because a) I still don't understand exactly what it is you're proposing, and b) what I'm able to understand so far doesn't jive with what's on the ground.
There are approaches to Muslims (back in the 70's with Phil Parshall's theories of contextualization) that take a very ecumenical-dialogical approach to witness and mission. It worked amazingly well (so it seemed) in Bangladesh. But after years of studying the real beliefs and faith of converts, it was discovered that their faith was extremly syncretistic and Jesus was never perceived as divine.
Tom
KIXYTΘEMTAPost Edited (Tom) : 2/16/2011 8:05:51 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
| 143 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 4 5 6 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 9:44 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|