If we were able to have an unbiased person who had no emontional, religious attachments to either Christianity or Islam, and was just to look at the argument itself with all of the information...do you think she would agree with the logic of this?

Whole thread

Is this "folk" Islam, Tom?  And Is this statement accurate, Tom?

For Shii Islam, which dominates Iran, the martyrdom of Husayn, the grandson of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), in 682 A.D. is a central spiritual event. And for Shii Islam in particular, the life and death of Christ is a parallel spiritual event. The Christ/Husayn analogy is ever present in the religious sensibility of Shi'i Islam.

Post Edited (One Love) : 2/16/2011 12:23:00 PM (GMT-6)

yeah...

Post Edited (One Love) : 2/16/2011 2:09:17 PM (GMT-6)

I will say this though: It's been my experience though this process that there seems to be a lot of subjective emotional baggage that deters Muslims AND Christians from seeking more common ground.  So much so, that some of both sides hesitate to look at FACTS.  It's silly and disheartening.

Post Edited (One Love) : 2/18/2011 8:41:45 AM (GMT-6)

Theologians discuss reconciliation

Mattson explained that Muslim and Christian individuals’ lack of knowledge regarding the two religions impedes the theological discussion of the varying views toward God.

“Most people in the world begin, not in a blank state, but from a situation of what Islamic scholars call complex ignorance, which is a distinction from simple ignorance,” Mattson said. “Simple ignorance is simply not knowing about something — complex ignorance is where you think you know something, but you don’t, and I think most of us in the world are in a situation of complex ignorance.”

DAMN RIGHT!!!! 

Basically, the common ground is taken as "loving God and loving the neighbor" as sheer principle. It feels this way as I read all the material on the Yale site and some stuff from the "A Common Word" book.  I was for sure they'd have done it in there...but I hadn't seen it yet.  They talk about what Jesus means by "loving your neighbor" and mentions that it's a reaffirmation of Torah. Plus they talk about how this is binding on how Christians should act towards Muslim/Christian dialogue.  They do a good job of that.

BUT...

They do NOT talk about the implications of Jesus' "love your neighbor" teaching as being AUTHORITATIVE for Muslim life per his being Prophet and Messenger from God...and they do NOT emphasize the common ground of Jesus being Prophet and Messenger from God in BOTH Christian and Islamic religious belief. And I think this is very fair to talk about, ESPECIALLY with educated Muslims who want to be in dialogue. If this could be discussed, then it would place responsibility on Muslim teachers like Professor Mattson to TEACH these things, particularly when talking comprehensively about who Isa is Quranically speaking and WHAT prophetic message he brought to the "Children of Israel." 

Post Edited (One Love) : 2/18/2011 9:25:11 AM (GMT-6)

D: It's been my experience though this process that there seems to be a lot of subjective emotional baggage that deters Muslims AND Christians from seeking more common ground.

T: For sure.

D: Basically, the common ground is taken as "loving God and loving the neighbor" as sheer principle. It feels this way as I read all the material on the Yale site and some stuff from the "A Common Word" book.  I was for sure they'd have done it in there...but I hadn't seen it yet.  They talk about what Jesus means by "loving your neighbor" and mentions that it's a reaffirmation of Torah. Plus they talk about how this is binding on how Christians should act towards Muslim/Christian dialogue. They do a good job of that. BUT they do NOT talk about the implications of Jesus' "love your neighbor" teaching as being AUTHORITATIVE for Muslim life per his being Prophet and Messenger from God.

Tom: It would be easy to apply to Muslims the implications of Jesus’ teaching on love IF it jived with everything else Muhammad taught. But it doesn’t. That’s part of the problem. Sure, Muhammad accepted Jesus as a prophet and endorsed his teaching as authoritative for Muslims. But did Muhammad really grasp Jesus’ teaching? No. Not if Muhammad’s LIFE is evidence for what he grasped as authoritative about Jesus for HIS OWN SELF.

So what you have is Muhammad believing he stood in line as final heir of God’s program from OT prophets to Jesus, etc., carrying on all their teachings to the next level. And he WANTS that continuity. Why does he want it? The charitable answer would be he really believed that the way of life he was offering was the fulfillment of what had gone before. A less charitable answer might be that he saw the political advantage and marketing strategy of being able to offer a new religion which wasn’t in fact new at all but which was the budding flower of previous revelation. Maybe it’s a bit of both.

But my point is this, D. For Muslims, the actual life of Muhammad is this authoritative precedent for what right action is. Whatever else we might want to say about right acting based on Jesus’ love teaching, in the end the prophet Muhammad embodies the fullness of right acting. If he killed, then killing is right for Muslims in this or that situation. Muhammad IS the hermeneutical key to applying Islam AS the fulfillment of everything Jesus taught.

But what happens when you show Muslims that Muhammad himself acted in less than loving ways? Well, they will THEN simply conclude that whatever it is in the teachings of the OT or NT that call Muhammad’s ethics and behavior into question is just one more example of reasonably dismissing OT and NT content as unacceptable because corrupted or at the very least as abrogated. Muslims are bound to live by whatever is in the OT and NT which a) can be reasonably demonstrated as not having been corrupted AND (as importantly) which b) can be embraced and lived consistently with the FINALITY of Muhammad’s message and life-example. If Jesus, say, really does embody pacifism (for example), then pacifism is OBVIOUSLY abrogated by Muhammad (the way Jesus abrogated aspects of the OT law). See? Whatever Muhammad was and did is by definition right and it abrogates any previous revelation.

I’m not making it up. I’ve had Muslims tell me this. Muhammad’s life IS the paradigm. He IS the archetypical man and human being. If his lifestyle conflicts with Jesus’ love teaching (and it absolutely does), then so much the worse for Jesus’ love teaching.

This is the problem with trying to establish "self-sacrificial love for neighbor" as the COMMON ground between Xty and Islam. It displaces Muhammad's LIFE (his lived example) as THE interpretive paradigm for understanding the Quran and living out Islam. This is crucial!

In other words, D, are you going to accept that the actual life Muhammad lived embodies Jesus' love teaching? A Muslim has to say Muhammad is this, for Muhammad is the ground of any authority the Quran has in standing opposite Xty in dialogue. Muhammad decides what is "common" between the two. This is a non-negotiable for Muslims. I'll poop in my pants if Joe C. disagrees. The point is that the TEXT of the Quran and the TEXT of Muhammad's life are--if they aren't one and the same--inseparable in confirming the will of God and in establishing the authority of Islam. So yes, Muhammad affirmed Jesus and his message and authoritative for Muslims. But Muhammad's life is understood to be the clearest demonstration possible of what a person's life looks like when she applies all that is authoritative from Moses and Jesus. In the end, MUHAMMAD embodies what is common to both Xty and Islam. Don't let Joe C or Volf tell you otherwise, hehe. (But don't worry, they won't! Or they shouldn't!)

Tom

Post Edited (Tom) : 2/18/2011 11:07:15 AM (GMT-6)

Post Edited (Tom) : 2/18/2011 11:55:51 AM (GMT-6)

And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him.* And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.

And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

Surah 5:44-48

* You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Post Edited (One Love) : 2/18/2011 2:33:47 PM (GMT-6)

--------------------------------------------------------

LOVE OF THE NEIGHBOUR IN ISLAM

          There are numerous injunctions in Islam about the necessity and paramount importance of love for—and mercy towards—the neighbour. Love of the neighbour is an essential and integral part of faith in God and love of God because in Islam without love of the neighbour there is no true faith in God and no righteousness. The Prophet Muhammad r said: “None of you has faith until you love for your brother what you love for yourself.”^xviiiAnd: “None of you has faith until you love for your neighbour what you love for yourself.”^xix

            However, empathy and sympathy for the neighbour—and even formal prayers— are not enough. They must be accompanied by generosity and self-sacrifice. God says in the Holy Qur’an:

It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces^xx to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in God and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the pious. (Al-Baqarah 2:177)

            And also:

Ye will not attain unto righteousness until ye expend of that which ye love. And whatsoever ye expend, God is Aware thereof. (Aal ‘Imran, 3:92)

          Without giving the neighbour what we ourselves love, we do not truly love God or the neighbour. ^

Post Edited (One Love) : 2/18/2011 2:58:33 PM (GMT-6)