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One Love
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| Posted 2/18/2011 7:52 PM (GMT -6) |   | Tom:
So Muhammad is practically speaking closer to Jesus than Moses. Keep reading. That's all I can say. You'll find stuff in Muhammad's life that is downright murderous. Now, you might say, "So was Moses and the Torah? The Old Testament is anything but loving," and I suppose that would be RIGHT since Jesus himself CONTRASTS his "loving way" with what had gone before (what else does "but I say to you" mean?). And so the argument goes, if Moses and the OT eye4eye are less than the love that Jesus calls for, why can't we place Muhammad on the same level as Moses?
Actually, I was thinking about Elijah when he killed all the prophets of Baal...but that was just me. But yeah, OT Violence rehash. No less violent that what God's people did when ordered. Just sayin.
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Tom:
But by your own premises, D, Muhammad sees the whole "love your neighbor" thing AND he understands that this is Jesus' basic message. So he's got to be BEYOND the whole eye4eye thing. He's on this side of Christ and furthermore he KNOWS it. He can't just be Moses rehashed, for he comes after Christ and believes he's saying something NEW, completing all the best that's preceeded him. What IS that new? I've asked Muslims and never received a clear or satisfactory answer. Muhammad is supposed to be ushering in and establishing the consummate ethic, something that will never require further improvement or revelation. So when Muhammad slaughters the Banu Qurayza or other Jewish denouncers of his prophethood (and he was ruthless on those who defied his calling, calling opening for their assassination), he's not just compassionately trading a tooth for a tooth.
He's inconsistent. But you've said that already. Kinda like some reconstructionist Christians that would want the death penalty for homosexuality. 
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 2/19/2011 11:24 AM (GMT -6) | | |
D: Actually, I was thinking about Elijah when he killed all the prophets of Baal...but that was just me. But yeah, OT Violence rehash. No less violent that what God’s people did when ordered. Just sayin.
T: And actually, I was just thinking about JESUS (self-sacrifice, love, hanging on the Cross, etc.) whose life and message Muhammad claimed to embody and complete/fulfill as an example for Muslims of how to affirm and maintain all that is authoritative for Muslims from the life and teachings of Jesus. I’m not saying Elijah embodied the love that Jesus was. I’m saying that believing that Muhammad claimed to have done so is at the heart of Islam’s view of Muhammad as exemplar and interpreter of all the prophets who preceded him and that this should figure into the argument you’re constructing on behalf of the Golden Rule being the place where Muslims and Christians can meet because BOTH faiths embrace “love” as the defining core of their faith.
One HAS to ask whether the Golden Rule can REALLY be said to define Islam IF Muhammad’s life itself is the authoritative act of interpretation of Islam for Muslims. It will not do, D, to compare Muhammad to Elijah or other OT prophets who took up the sword. Elijah isn’t the defining personality for Christianity—Jesus is. That’s our center, and we judge all we find—even in our own Scriptures—as we work outwards from that center. For Islam, Muhammad is the central figure (as exemplar, as author/finisher, as precedent, as interpreter, and so forth). Whatever the Golden Rule means in Islam, Muhammad is its embodiment. To grant that his life is an acceptable embodiment of the Golden Rule in spite of his violence because Christians who also embrace the Golden Rule have Elijah to deal with just misses the point.
I’m not saying that employing the Quran is a wrong thing to do. Heck, if only as a means to bring to the surface the very points I’m making, then that’s a good thing I suppose. We can begin by assuming the Golden Rule is common to both as a means for judging the rest of what we find IN BOTH and thereby to determine whether in fact the Golden Rule is definitive for EITHER. So we ‘assume’ for the sake of argument/exploration that Islam is a religion of agape love for God and all humankind in order to discover whether in fact this is so. I’m pretty convinced it is NOT so, but I take a different route to establishing my point. I begin with the REAL life of Muhammad and simply ask myself, “Can I call this the embodiment of love?” If the answer is “no” then I have to displace Muhammad as the authoritative act of interpretation for the Quran and its command that Muslims believe in Isa’s message. By what authority will I take this step? Against what standard or definition of love do I measure Muhammad and judge him to be lacking? Who has the authority to tell Muslims what “love” looks like? If you can displace Muhammad in the Muslim’s mind as that standard, you will have accomplished something great indeed. But you have to step OUTSIDE the Quran and Muhammad (as authoritative) in order to accomplish this. And that means stepping outside the methodology behind your argument--namely, that we should employ the Quran AS IT FUNCTIONS FOR THE MUSLIM and ask him to remain faithful to it (or isn't that what you're asking him to do?).
And using the Quran this way is not without its own unique problems. When you as a non-Muslim hold the Muslim to believing what his own book compels him to believe you are in the Muslim’s mind affirming the Quran’s (and Muhammad's) right to command allegiance. When you LATER ask the Muslim to choose between the NT’s portrayal of Jesus over the Quran’s (and Muhammad’s) portrayal of Jesus you are then denying what you earlier affirmed. This approach can and does in fact undermine the Christian’s integrity if the Christian hasn’t been VERY up front to begin with by pointing out that what he’s doing by appealing to the Quran is not endorsing the Quran as authoritative but simply asking the Muslim to be as consistent as possible with his own book for the sake of peaceful co-existence and respectful dialogue. In other words, there’s a particular sort of Islam which you think is fully orthodox AND which you believe would—apart from Muslims converting to Jesus—domesticate radical, fundamentalist Islam and bring peace to all Islam’s borders. Is that what you’re after here? Are you looking for a cease-fire so that Islam and the rest of the world can live in peace? Or is your argument designed to win Muslims to faith in Christ?
Tom
KIXYTΘEMTAPost Edited (Tom) : 2/19/2011 11:45:02 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 2/20/2011 10:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Ok. Let's start here so that you can see what I'm trying to do here. Basically, I'm doing like what you've said...
Tom:
When you as a non-Muslim hold the Muslim to believing what his own book compels him to believe you are in the Muslim’s mind affirming the Quran’s (and Muhammad's) right to command allegiance. When you LATER ask the Muslim to choose between the NT’s portrayal of Jesus over the Quran’s (and Muhammad’s) portrayal of Jesus you are then denying what you earlier affirmed. This approach can and does in fact undermine the Christian’s integrity if the Christian hasn’t been VERY up front to begin with by pointing out that what he’s doing by appealing to the Quran is not endorsing the Quran as authoritative but simply asking the Muslim to be as consistent as possible with his own book for the sake of peaceful co-existence and respectful dialogue. In other words, there’s a particular sort of Islam which you think is fully orthodox AND which you believe would—apart from Muslims converting to Jesus—domesticate radical, fundamentalist Islam and bring peace to all Islam’s borders. Is that what you’re after here? Are you looking for a cease-fire so that Islam and the rest of the world can live in peace? Or is your argument designed to win Muslims to faith in Christ?
It's like this: I believe that the 138 Muslim representatives who wrote "A Common Word Between Us and You" were trying to be as integrous with their faith as possible when they wrote it. I hope all things, and believe all things on that score. A major part of the goal of that document was for "peacful co-existence and respectful dialogue" between Muslims and Christians. That is the context of all this. As it stood, all I could see the document doing was like Piper said: Because the principle of loving God and loving the neighbor was taught by Islams' main prophetic voice (Muhammad) and Christianity's main prophetic voice (Jesus), then that principle is where "peaceful co-existence and respectful dialogue" can have the greatest hope. My thought is that it doesn't go far enough. First off, as you have noted, some Christians will a very hard time seeing Muhammad as truly embodying a true "love of neighbor" ethic given his militaristic conquests...regardless of what any of his hadiths say. This is probably why John Piper accused the 138 Muslim representatives as not really believing what they are saying. Those Christians, following Piper, would just say that we don't see "love" the same way, if Muhammad is taken to be the example. So, if there is no shared understanding on what the principle of love of neighbor ENTAILS or MEANS, then the criteria for whether it's happening or not will be a source of continual disagreement.
However...
IF a Muslim decides to be informed and consistent as possible with their own books, beliefs, and esteemed theological authorities, per my argumentation, then they would have to look at some clear statements in the Torah and Jesus' words about "neighborliness" that CANNOT be said to be deteriorated by any kind of tahrif or corruption. Let's just take the bare points from Leviticus 19:9-18, which God's Prophet and Messenger, Jesus, reifies later as one of the "Great Commandments"...
1) When you gain from your work, don't just think about yourself. Think of the poor and the wayfarer.
2) Don't steal.
3) Don't deal with false pretenses or motives.
4) Don't lie to each other.
5) Don't oppress or rob your neighbor.
6) Don't mistreat the physically (or mentally) challenged.
7) Don't promote injustic or partiality. Judge righteously.
8) Don't slander others.
9) Dont threat the life of your neighbors.
10) Don't hate your brother "in your heart."
11) Don't take vengeance for yourself.
12) Don't hold a grudge against your neighbor.
By and large, these seem pretty straightforward. Even with any nit-picking, there would still be a large base of understanding the concepts involved, I think. Now, let's say that the informed Muslim who chooses to be consistent sees that, Quranically speaking, they should believe and follow these teachings as authoritative. Then THIS gets brought to the table that "A Common Word" set up. Because these Leviticus 19 ideas are binding on both Muslims AND Christians, now we can say that we have a ground for shared understanding of what loving the neighbor entails. As Muslims and Christians who TOGETHER honor the Torah-Gospel teaching of the Prophet and Messenger, Jesus/Isa, we will agree to not steal from each other, not slander each other, not oppress or rob each other, etc. And these are things that I think more moderate or secular Muslims would agree with ANYWAY.
Now, it may just be me...but I bet that if there was a consortium of Muslims and Christians...and everyone agreed to follow the 12 guidelines above, everyone would be better off. We'd have a safe, more open space to actually get into the meaty issues of theological difference...without malice, lying, or opportunism. This provides plenty of ground for a "cease-fire" where genuine discussion of good will and good faith can proceed.
THEN AFTER THAT...
Then Muslims and Christians can honestly look at the lives of Jesus and Muhammad (historically and Quranically) and see which Prophet more properly embodied the love ethic spelled out above. You said...
I begin with the REAL life of Muhammad and simply ask myself, “Can I call this the embodiment of love?” If the answer is “no” then I have to displace Muhammad as the authoritative act of interpretation for the Quran and its command that Muslims believe in Isa’s message. By what authority will I take this step? Against what standard or definition of love do I measure Muhammad and judge him to be lacking? Who has the authority to tell Muslims what “love” looks like? If you can displace Muhammad in the Muslim’s mind as that standard, you will have accomplished something great indeed. But you have to step OUTSIDE the Quran and Muhammad (as authoritative) in order to accomplish this. And that means stepping outside the methodology behind your argument--namely, that we should employ the Quran AS IT FUNCTIONS FOR THE MUSLIM and ask him to remain faithful to it (or isn't that what you're asking him to do?).
The 12 Torah-given, Jesus-reified "love your neighbor" concepts above can be that "standard" or "authority" because the Quran itself "pushes" the Muslim OUTSIDE the Quran and Muhammad towards Torah Truth and Jesus, via their belief in the Holy Books of the "People of the Book."
And when you stack up Jesus against Muhammed in this area? Well, when we specifically talk about the "ghazawat" activity of Muhammed...in contradistinction to Jesus' life (as best as history gives us)...I think that things would definitey lean in Jesus' favor. Don't you, Tom?
What can possibly "displace Muhammad in the Muslim's mind" is the "loving your neighbor" teaching that what was prophetically spoken by Moses in the Torat and refied by Jesus in the Injeel.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/20/2011 11:14:16 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 2/20/2011 10:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Seriously now.
What basally educated, moderate Muslim is really gonna disagree with these 12 concepts?
For that matter, what basally educated, moderate CHRISTIAN would disagree with these 12 concepts?
Yeah.
That's pretty of ground for BLOOD-LESS, RESPECT-FUL discussion and interaction.
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Torah-asserted, Jesus-affirmed Criteria for "loving one's neighbor as oneself"
1) When you gain from your work, don't just think about yourself. Think of the poor and the wayfarer.
2) Don't steal.
3) Don't deal with false pretenses or motives.
4) Don't lie to each other.
5) Don't oppress or rob your neighbor.
6) Don't mistreat the physically (or mentally) challenged.
7) Don't promote injustic or partiality. Judge righteously.
8) Don't slander others.
9) Dont threat the life of your neighbors.
10) Don't hate your brother "in your heart."
11) Don't take vengeance for yourself.
12 ) Don't hold a grudge against your neighbor.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/20/2011 10:04:17 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 2/20/2011 12:19 PM (GMT -6) | | The Jihad Against the Jihadis
How moderate Muslim leaders waged war on extremists—and won.
Fareed Zakaria
February 12, 2010
Since 9/11, Western commentators have been calling on moderate Muslim leaders to condemn jihadist ideology, issue fatwas against suicide bombing, and denounce Al Qaeda. Since about 2006, they've begun to do so in significant numbers. In 2007 one of bin Laden's most prominent Saudi mentors, the preacher and scholar Salman al-Odah, wrote an open letter criticizing him for "fostering a culture of suicide bombings that has caused bloodshed and suffering, and brought ruin to entire Muslim communities and families." That same year Abdulaziz al ash-Sheikh, the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia, issued a fatwa prohibiting Saudis from engaging in jihad abroad and accused both bin Laden and Arab regimes of "transforming our youth into walking bombs to accomplish their own political and military aims." One of Al Qaeda's own top theorists, Abdul-Aziz el-Sherif, renounced its extremism, including the killing of civilians and the choosing of targets based on religion and nationality. Sherif—a longtime associate of Zawahiri who crafted what became known as Al Qaeda's guide to jihad—has called on militants to desist from terrorism, and authored a rebuttal of his former cohorts.
Al-Azhar University in Cairo, the oldest and most prestigious school of Islamic learning, now routinely condemns jihadism. The Darul Uloom Deoband movement in India, home to the original radicalism that influenced Al Qaeda, has inveighed against suicide bombing since 2008. None of these groups or people have become pro-American or liberal, but they have become anti-jihadist.
Maybe there's hope, yes?
I sure hope so...
The Dubai-based Kalam institute has issued an appeal on behalf of a group of religious and clan leaders from across Libya, urging "every Muslim, within the regime" or anyone helping it [the regime]: "Do NOT kill your brothers and sisters, STOP the massacre NOW!"
Now IS the time.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/20/2011 11:25:19 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 2/21/2011 8:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Actually...I'm thinking about something.
If America were to grade itself on the 12 characteristics in the "loving your neigbor" idea...how would she fare?
I would submit that insofar as American economic and political activity deviates from the 12 characteristic mentioned, it is not only non-Christian, but ANTI-Christian.
But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power.
Does this sound in any way like American economic and political leaders we see in our day?
If you look close at this, you will see that the stuff directly above is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the "love your neighbor" teachings!!
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I guess I'm thinking this way: If Christians are going to ask Muslims to operate and discern their religious activity by the Great Commandments of Jesus/Isa...then we'd dang well better check our OWN implicit or explicit denials of those Commandments in our lives. Otherwise, we are rank hypocrites who are hearers but not DOERS of the Word.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/21/2011 7:53:22 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 2/21/2011 9:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Is THIS why we are called a Christian nation? It sure can't be because of our behavior...
Main religious preferences of Americans
Christianity: (76% to 82.3%)
Unaffiliated, including atheist or agnostic (11.6% to 15%)
Judaism (1.2% to 2.2%)
Islam (0.6% to 2.6%)
Buddhism (0.5% to 0.9%)
Hinduism (0.4%)
Other (1.4%)
Hmmmm...so that means that between 76% to 82% of Americans, if they would act consistently in their so-called Christianity...would at LEAST be doing the "loving the neighbor as yourself" thing, right? If they ain't doin' anything else, they could do that. Could you imagine what that would do for the world? SERIOUSLY.
Torah-asserted, Jesus-affirmed Criteria for "Loving One's Neighbor As Oneself"
1) When you gain from your work, don't just think about yourself. Think of the poor and the wayfarer.
2) Don't steal.
3) Don't deal with false pretenses or motives.
4) Don't lie to each other.
5) Don't oppress or rob your neighbor.
6) Don't mistreat the physically (or mentally) challenged.
7) Don't promote injustice or partiality. Judge righteously.
8) Don't slander others.
9) Dont threaten the life of your neighbors.
10) Don't hate your brother "in your heart."
11) Don't take vengeance for yourself.
12 ) Don't hold a grudge against your neighbor.
And you wanna know what's totally screwed up? I'd bet...by and large...that the significant amount of the atheists and agnostics would AGREE in principle and practice with the 12 things above...even without a full belief in God.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/21/2011 8:15:03 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 2/21/2011 10:04 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/21/2011 10:08 AM (GMT -6) | | This may sound crazy but I'm gonna say it anyway: I believe that the Risen Jesus Christ is actually (GASP) the Lord of History and is moving it according to his plans, using (DOUBLE GASP) Holy Spirit-borne truth within other religious situations and texts like the Quran (FALL OUT!). 
Specifically with Islam, I think it's simply Christ's providential working that Muhammad took such affinity to honoring Jesus so highly as Prophet and Messenger of God...and that this was brought to the fore in the what Muhammad's writing of the Quran.
Without that, we would NOT be having THIS particular conversation right now.
The Spiritual Presence of Jesus has been in on this the whole time! I believe it.
Preparing things for the right time...
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/21/2011 9:11:33 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 2/21/2011 11:32 AM (GMT -6) | | | Heh...Latest summation attempt...
Torah-asserted, Jesus-affirmed Commandments from God
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
Torah-asserted, Jesus-affirmed Criteria for "Loving Your Neighbor As Yourself"(Leviticus 19:9-18)
1) When you gain from your work, don't just think about yourself. Think of the poor and the wayfarer.
2) Don't steal.
3) Don't operate by false pretenses or motives.
4) Don't lie to each other.
5) Don't oppress or rob your neighbor.
6) Don't mistreat the physically (or mentally) challenged.
7) Don't promote injustice or partiality. Judge righteously.
8) Don't slander others.
9) Don’t threaten the life of your neighbors.
10) Don't hate your brother (or sister) "in your heart."
11) Don't take vengeance for yourself.
12) Don't hold a grudge against your neighbor.
The "New" Commandment from Jesus...
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another."
"This is my command: Love each other."
Verification of Jesus' teachings by His followers...
"For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another." --1 John 3:11
For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” --Galatians 5:13-14
The Core Message of Jesus as God's Prophet and Messenger:
Human beings are to express singular worship of and submission to the One Uncreated Creator by a) thanksgiving, adoration and glorification to the Creator and b) works of loving-kindness and compassion to others and ourselves. In this, we are also to consecrate ourselves and be holy, compassionate, merciful, and loving because our Creator is holy, compassionate, merciful and loving.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/21/2011 10:58:48 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 2/22/2011 1:23 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 2/26/2011 1:59 PM (GMT -6) | | I wanna see this movie now...
"Of Gods and Men": Christian monks in a Muslim land"
Pick of the week: The mesmerizing "Of Gods and Men" explores a doomed monastery in terror-plagued '90s Algeria
By Andrew O'Hehir
From this article...
When the severe but eloquent head of the monastery, Brother Christian (Wilson), comes face to face with a guerrilla leader named Ali Fayattia (Farid Larbi) who has come through the gates with his armed band on Christmas night, the monk meets the invader with a verse from the Quran that mentions Christian priests and monks. The moment seems pregnant with awful possibilities; will the guerrilla be outraged by this unbeliever's use of the Prophet's words and massacre them all? Instead, Ali Fayattia finishes speaking the verse himself and soon departs, apologizing for interrupting the birthday celebration of Jesus (an important Muslim prophet). He extends his hand to Christian and the latter takes it, after a moment's consideration.
That scene embodies many of the themes in "Of Gods and Men" in a single moment. Christian knows that he is shaking the hand of a murderer, and that this truce between the defenseless monks and the Islamist zealots determined to destroy the semi-secular Algerian state is unlikely to last long. In a sense, you could argue, he is sealing his fate with that handshake. The only options available to the monks after that are to flee to France and abandon almost everything they stand for -- service, humility, the confraternity of Christianity and Islam, and the example set by the man for whom their religion is named -- or to stay behind, care for their beehives and gardens, and stand with the people of Algeria to whom they have already given their lives.
THIS is what I'm on. They were willing to die for Christ's love for the enemy. I pray that God grants me that much strength. Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon me, a sinner.
Movie website
http://www.themonksoftibhirine.net/
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/26/2011 1:12:12 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 3/1/2011 11:56 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 3/5/2011 10:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Awwwwwwwwwwwwwww, sooki SOOKI now!!
Check out the thread...gotten some interesting feedback so far...you can start at page 12 if you want..
Here's what I'm saying there...MustafaMc is a longtimer there who's engaging me...
YO: I'm glad to see that it's not a conceptual inconceivability. That's very, very important. Glad we could get that out the way.
MustafaMc: Thanks. ;)...but that does not make Jesus God incarnate anymore than the Quran encapsulates Allah's (swt) Essence.
Ok. If you notice, I am not talking about Jesus being God incarnate. THAT would be a trinitarian assertion. The only thing I'm working with right now is that it is logically conceivable and theologically viable that Jesus is an eternally-spoken, uncreated "word" of Allah temporally manifested into human history through Mary. That's it.
So far, it seems as if the claim is both logically conceivable and theological viable.
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YO:At the same time, there doesn't seem to be anything in that belief of Jesus' human createdness that necessarily ELIMINATES the possibility of being a manifestation of uncreated, eternal reality. Especially when that very thing is claimed for the Quran.
MustafaMc: No, you err in equating a Word, 'Be!' with a 'manifestation of Allah (swt). You are twisting the Quran around to say what you want it to say.
It seems like you are taking my statement "manifestation of uncreated, eternal reality" as something like unto manifestation of Allah's essence itself. I don't see where I've said that anywhere.
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YO: And let me be very clear: I am NOT arguing for the Trinity per se...nor am I arguing for the eternal SONSHIP of Jesus. Not at all. I am arguing that there is nothing in Islam (that I've seen) that completely removes the possibility of Jesus being Allah's "word" eternally spoken and temporally manifested into human history through Mary "in the fulness of time." Unless there is something in the Quran or Islamic metaphysics that makes it absolutely impossible for Jesus to be an eternally-spoken, uncreated "word" of Allah...then I don't see how a Muslim could fault a thinking person for conceiving and believing such about Jesus.
MustafaMc: Even if that is so, it does not mean that we were intended to worship Jesus (as). We believe that the Quran is the very Word of Allah (swt) but I as a Muslim do not worship the Book. The Book points me toward the worship of the Creator, just like Jesus (as) did.
Hmmm. I'm not talking about worshipping Jesus. Again, the only thing I'm talking about right now is entertaining the idea that the Word of Allah spoken to Mary is just as paradoxically eternal and temporal as the Quran is said to be. That's it.
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YO: Christian prayer and worship can be (and is) "imageless". Especially prayer like hesychasm. That is to say, a Christian is not bound to always think in "icons" to worship the Transcendent God.
MustafaMc: Thank you I learned something.
Not a problem. Glad to be helpful. 
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YO: Can a Muslim think about the physically-ascendant Jesus (who is now in the presence of God) without being an idolater? In other words, can a Muslim think about Jesus' physically-ascendent BODY without forgetting the absolute transcendence of God? (corrected) If the answer is "yes" to both questions, then I'd wonder if the very same thing couldn't be applicable to Christians.
MustafaMc: Sorry, but you lost me there. We think of Jesus (as) as one of those who are or will be brought near to Allah (as), but I believe this means after Judgment Day. No, that does not indicate that Jesus (as) is any more God than when he was on earth.
What I'm saying is this: merely focusing on the locality of the Ascendant Jesus's body does not take away from the ability to believe in the absolute Transcendence of Allah. The "image" of Jesus' risen humanity need not be a hindrance to this understanding. That's what I'm saying.
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YO: I'd say that God could manifest eternal, uncreated reality in human existence for the same reason that it's claimed he did so in the Quran: a greater degree of self-revelation.
MustafaMc: No, again I see that you are twisting the meaning. I don't see that Allah (swt) needs to reveal Himself to me more than has been done in the Quran. That is sufficient for me to have some, albeit limited, understanding of the One God that I worship as it so also reveals to me what not to worship, including the human, Jesus (as), who is often referred to as the 'Son of Mary'.
How is the meaning being twisted? It seems like you are directly relating the idea of "manifestation of eternal, uncreated reality" with "incarnation of divine essence". Those are two different things. I'm talking about the former, not the latter. No Muslim would say that the Quran is an incarnation of divine essence, but many WOULD and DO say that the Quran is UNCREATED and ETERNAL even as it is temporally revealed in human history.
To which MustafaMC said...
YieldedOne, that was an interesting post and I have actually pondered over the meaning of the ayat 3:45 "(And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah)." I can see the point that you are trying to make and I can't say that I disagree with you. This is where I need to say Allah (swt) knows best the full meaning and I should not speculate beyond what is apparent.
...to which I responded then summarized...
Succinctly:
If Muslims believe the Quran to be the beginningless, uncreated, pre-existent "speech of Allah" while being manifested in things that are "created, originated, and produced"...then there is absolutely no theological or metaphysical reason at all for those same Muslims to deny the possibility that Jesus, specifically noted in the Quran as a "Word" from Allah Himself, could ALSO be the beginningless, uncreated, pre-existent "speech of Allah" while being manifested in creaturely existence. All of this is possible because of the nature of Jesus' birth as direct "Word" from Allah.
Yessir.
And it's DEAD SILENT on the "Isa: "Great Commandments" as Essential to True Muslim Faith" thread. Ain't nobody touchin' that. Not even some of the more anti-Christian Muslims on the board. HA!! 
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 3/5/2011 9:17:56 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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| Posted 3/12/2011 9:49 AM (GMT -6) | | D: If Muslims believe the Quran to be the beginningless, uncreated, pre-existent "speech of Allah" while being manifested in things that are "created, originated, and produced"...then there is absolutely no theological or metaphysical reason at all for those same Muslims to deny the possibility that Jesus, specifically noted in the Quran as a "Word" from Allah Himself, could ALSO be the beginningless, uncreated, pre-existent "speech of Allah" while being manifested in creaturely existence. All of this is possible because of the nature of Jesus' birth as direct "Word" from Allah.
Tom: Besides the fact that the Quran calls Jesus "a" word (kalima) and not "the" Word (al-kamila) and not "the Word of God" (kalimat Allah)--[and what the anarthrous might mean; it's debated]--you're exactly right.
Cool.
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Tom:
And THIS is why I say: The comparison is NOT between books on the one hand (Quran and Bible) and prophets on the other (Muhammad and Jesus) on the other. The comparison is between Quran and Jesus. It is about THESE two that Muslims and Christians make comparative claims. They don't function 100% the same, but they're close enough to give the Muslim room to grasp what it is we're saying about Jesus.
Definitely agree. The framework is there.
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Tom:
And of course, there's the question of Muhammad's consistency and integrity. You can't have Muhammad attributing deity to Jesus on one hand (calling him God (or something close) because Muhammad knows that "a word from him" MEANS Jesus is metaphysically MORE than MERELY a man and something intimately related to the BEING of God) and then denying it on the other (by misunderstanding trinitarian claims so desperately elsewhere in his claims and condemning Christians as infidels). If we want to interepret Muhammad as being consistent throughout, then we can't make "a word from him" into something that lets Christians off the hook, so to speak.
Well, saying that Muhammad intended to mean that Jesus was metaphysically more than human obviously wouldn't work. For a number of reasons. It would be more like theological exploration of 1) Jesus' human emergence being the result of "speech" from Allah and 2) the Quran being touted as manifestation of uncreated, eternal reality. But as I'm learning, some of the Muslims I'm interacting with seem to be very suspicious and/or defensive of anything that can POSSIBLY be taken as "shirk." It gets interesting...
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