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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/6/2011 8:22 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/6/2011 8:33 AM (GMT -6) | | | This is just stupid to me, now. Muslims honor Moses. Muslims honor "the Law", that is the Torah. Muslims honor Jesus as he is believed to be the "messenger" and "servant" of God, who only speaks truth about God...WHAT IS PART OF HIS MESSAGE??????
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
and...
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”
But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. And the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, ‘Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.’ Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?” He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” And Jesus said to him, “You go, and do likewise.”
Jesus was REIFYING and REINTERPRETING specific ideas from the Torah authoritatively linked to Moses.
What's the friggin problem here?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/6/2011 7:40:56 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/6/2011 9:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Something else.
"They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."
—Koran, sura 2, (Al-Baqara) ayah 135
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"And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden."
—Koran, sura 5, (Al-Ma'ida) ayah 116
Hmm...Jesus was of the "Religion of Abraham" who would have been very familiar with the Shema. Then in the New Testament Jesus says...
"Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone."
So, obviously Jesus believed this.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/6/2011 8:14:53 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/6/2011 9:11 AM (GMT -6) | | No problem with the video, necessarily.
Jeff, I am not understanding how there can be such Muslim reverence for Jesus (as Messiah, Messenger of God, etc), Abraham, Moses, and the Torah...but not acknowledge his focus and reification of the Great Commandments, which are from the Torah.
It's mindbogglingly frustrating.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/6/2011 8:15:20 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/6/2011 9:19 AM (GMT -6) | | | From here...
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Yusuf Ali: |
Say ye: "We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to God (in Islam)."
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Zohurul Hoque: |
You say: "We believe in Allah, and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Isma'il and Is-haq, and Ya'qub and the Tribes, and that was given to Musa and 'Isa, and what was given to the nabis from their Rabb; we make no discrimination among any of them, and to Him do we be Muslims."
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T. J. Irving: |
SAY: "We believe in God and what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants, and what was given Moses and Jesus, and what was given the [other] prophets by their Lord. We do not discriminate against any one of them and are committed [to live] in peace to Him."
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T.U. Hilali-M. Khan: |
Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qûb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qûb (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Mûsa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm)."
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M. Pickthall: |
Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.
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M.H. Shakir: |
Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit. |
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/6/2011 9:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Let's use some logic.
The "Injil" of Jesus could not contradict the Shema or Leviticus 19. If that was the case that Jesus would NOT be consonant with "the Religion of Abraham the True."
If we were, just for the sake of discussion, to FORGET about the whole Incarnation thing (GASP!)...wouldn't this have to be true, Islamically speaking, for Jesus to truly be the righteous "messenger of God"?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/6/2011 8:32:46 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/6/2011 9:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom said this elsewhere...
"So here's the thing. When you read the classical Muslim commentators, they speak very reverently of the Jewish and Christian scriptures. And you find the same when you talk to a classically trained Imam who has not yet been indoctrinated by hatred for the West, etc. BUT...for the most part the Islam that RULES on the street, that motivates populations, is folk Islam. And on this level you have much seething hatred of other religions (espeically Judaism and Christianity) and utter disdain for their books. In fact, Musilms believe (because the idea got started based on a misreading of certain Quranic passages), that the TEXTS of both the Torat and the Injil have been thoroughly corrupted (mostly to eradicate predictions of Muhammad that WERE in the original texts) and therefore are not to be trusted. So it's difficult to continue profitable dialogue on the basis of what the Torat or Injil say since these texts no longer represent the word of God."
All that's really necessary is this:
1) The Shema
2) Leviticus 19
3) The belief that Allah is Compassionate, Merciful, Gracious, and Loving (See the 99 Names of God in Islam)
4) The belief that Jesus proclaimed 1-3 as a faithful messenger and servant of Allah.
How can believed corruption of the Torat and Injil screw THAT up?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/6/2011 8:42:29 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/6/2011 9:50 AM (GMT -6) | | 'Now I have come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which you dispute. Therefore, fear God and obey me. God, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him -- this is a Straight Way.'
---Jesus' statement in Sura 43:63-64
Wait a sec. So we are to fear and worship God...and obey the teachings of his Messiah, Jesus...which focus on fearing and worshipping God (Shema) and what that means for relationships with fellow humans. (Leviticus 19).
Oy friggin vay!
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/6/2011 8:56:37 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/6/2011 9:58 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm thinking that many Christians (like the evangelical dude in the video and John Piper) are so hell-bent on fully asserting the Incarnation and the Trinity...that they are missing excellent opportunities!
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/6/2011 9:02:09 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/6/2011 10:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Similtude:
It seems, in retrospect, that the mind must be in a state of SEEKING out how to square that divine benevolence which grounds the very intelligibility and reality of normativity with the WAY that benevolence is consistent with the world as we experience it to actually FIND it. IOW, if you seek you shall find. If we don't seek, we won't find. Some people are only seeking how to square self-justification with this-worldly satisfaction
Hmmm...maybe that's it. Dialogue has to be based on the self-aware PURSUIT of the Compassionate, Loving God and his Truth using his compassionate love to us as a means of doing so. That would probably bring some humility to the table. Hmmm...
If a Muslim and I AGREE that we are both pursuing knowledge about the All-Compassionate and Loving One and His created universe...and can do so only by said Compassion and Love empowering our pursuit...then we'd probably be a lot less apt to attempt to proselytize each other.
In short, we must both agree that we are both "seekers" borne by God's compassion and love. There's no WAY either or us could doubt that.
Yeah...
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/6/2011 9:09:17 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
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Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 2/6/2011 10:33 AM (GMT -6) | | D: If a Muslim and I AGREE that we are both pursuing knowledge about the All-Compassionate and Loving One and His created universe...and can do so only by said Compassion and Love empowering our pursuit...then we'd probably be a lot less apt to attempt to proselytize each other.
J: I think you're exacty right. Only those who are totally confident that God is PERFECTLY benevolent can remain objective during proselytization attempts. Otherwise, it probably strengthens the defensive posture that gets in the way of GOOD-natured dialogue. I know I come across poorly myself at times (unintentionally), but much of my approach is to argue for trying to understand another's position so we can know HOW to "walk in wisdom that [we] might know how to answer every man." Colossians.
And sometimes that might require accepting the theoretical possibility, FOR THE SAKE of argument, that we are wrong about our Christian beliefs. IOW, we don't have to deny Christ, but I think we can legitimately, FOR THE SAKE of argument, say, "OK, suppose Christianity is false, what view of benevolent theism makes more rational sense, and how does it do that?" But if we can't even get to a common ground of benevolent theism, we have to go deeper and do epistemology itself. If no common ground can be found that way (and I find that's often the case), you're pretty much hosed from the get-go. Then, we have to just wait on the work of the Spirit to give us ANYTHING to lovingly work with as far as dialogue is concerned.
Of course that leaves lots of loving action we can still do to and for those same people. Changing people's minds isn't all there is to loving people. Our work is always cut out for us.
Post Edited (Similitude) : 2/6/2011 9:38:43 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/6/2011 11:55 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/6/2011 12:11 PM (GMT -6) | | | This is what I think is the essential message of the Prophet and Messenger of God, Jesus:
Human beings are to express singular worship of and submission to the One Uncreated Creator by works of loving-kindness and compassion to ourselves and others...and thanksgiving, adoration and glorification to the Creator. In this, we are also to consecrate ourselves and be holy, compassionate, merciful, and loving because our Creator is holy, compassionate, merciful and loving.
Someone show me a Muslim or Christian that is genuinely knowledgeable about their faith that would deny this.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/6/2011 12:19 PM (GMT -6) | | A Common Word Between Us?
January 23, 2008 | by: David Mathis
John Piper discusses "A Common Word Between Us and You" and the response to it from 300 Christian leaders.
Rick Love Responds to Piper's Thoughts on "A Common Word"
January 28, 2008 | by: David Mathis
Last week, we posted a video of John Piper discussing "A Common Word," a letter to Christians from Muslim scholars, and expressing his disappointment with the response to it that over 300 Christian leaders signed. In the video, John mentions that he has friends among those who signed. We contacted some of them to ask if they would be willing to provide their rationale. Rick Love, former International Director for Frontiers, has responded. (Please note that this is his personal response, not representative of
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/6/2011 12:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Ok, ok. I'm obsessing, I know...but just one more thing for right now...
Surah 61: 6-7
And remember what Jesus, son of Mary, had said: "O children of Israel, I am indeed a Messenger sent to you by Allah, confirming the Torah which has come before me and giving the good news of a Messenger who shall come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad."
As I see it, if a Muslim is to believe this (which I guess they would)...they must affirm that Jesus would CONFIRM THE TORAH as a good "messenger" sent by Allah to the Israelites who were given the Torah by God. This necessitates that, regardless of what problems Muslims may have with the Torah, they cannot ignore it or Jesus' confirmation of it. To do so, they'd have to negate the very text that they use to assert Muhammad as Messenger.
So I say again, all that's really necessary is this:
1) The Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4-9)
2) Leviticus 19:9-18
3) The belief that Allah is Compassionate, Merciful, Gracious, and Loving, per the Quran.
4) The belief that Jesus proclaimed 1-3 as a faithful messenger and servant of Allah per the Quran
It's all downhill from there, seems to me.
Tom?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/6/2011 11:56:26 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/6/2011 6:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Yo. Been thinking about it. I think that there are two bedrock foundations for these thoughts that are specifically linked to the Quranic texts...
1) Authority of Moses as Prophet of God and "ground" of the Torah.
2) Jesus (Isa) as God-sanctioned faithful "brother" within the "Children of Israel" and Prophet of God to the same.
Moses as Prophet is a MAJOR Quranic ground for the authenticity of Muhammad. To deny the Authority of Moses would be implicitly to deny that Muhammed was a "prophet like unto Moses." Even someone like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad couldn't deny that, right, Tom?
Jesus...Isa...as Jewish brother (Martin Buber), a COVENANTAL MEMBER of in the "Children of Israel" to whom the Torah was given...is directly asserted in the Quran to be an authentic Prophet and Messenger with direct revelation of the Torah's truth from God himself.
I just can't see how a knowledgeable Muslim could disavow this. As a matter of fact, I don't see how neither John Piper nor Fr. Thomas Hopko could disavow this.
Heh. 
Whatchu think, Tom?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/6/2011 5:38:02 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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