Open Theism Discussion Board
  HomeLog InRegisterSearch the ForumHelp
   
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > Libertarian Freedom and the Eastern Orthodox  Forum Quick Jump
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

Daniel M
Registered Member


Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 263
 
   Posted 2/23/2011 11:00 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I came across an interesting article by David Hart and he discusses libertarian freedom in a way we've been talking about in the recent months (a discussion which I have, sadly, not had the energy to peruse at the moment, maybe when I'm finished reading 150 pages of the Critique of Pure Reason every week).

David Hart said...
Which is why it is not only perplexing but deeply disturbing that so many Christians and Jews in the modern world unthinkingly embrace and defend a purely libertarian understanding of freedom, even as they decry the constant gravitation of modern society toward ever more arbitrary, decadent, and extreme expressions of just this kind of freedom. They cannot be acquitted on the grounds that the cultivation of virtue is the work of individual souls and not of society at large, for there is no such thing as private virtue, any more than there is such a thing as private language, and fallen creatures vary enormously in their capacity for obedience to the Good. Though to say this might make me seem like an unregenerate Christian Platonist (which is not too dreadful a fate, since that is precisely what I am), a society is just precisely to the degree that it makes true freedom possible; to do this it must leave certain areas of moral existence to govern themselves, but it must also in many cases seek to defeat the most vicious aspects of fallen nature, and to aid as far as possible in the elevation in each soul of right reason over mere appetite and impulse — which necessarily involves denying certain persons the things they want most. A just social order, that is to say, would be one devoted to what might be called a “pedagogy of the Good,” and would recognize that there can be no simple partition between the polity of the soul and the polity of the people, and that there is in fact a reciprocal spiritual relation — a harmony — between them. When appetite seizes the reins of the soul or the city, it drives the chariot toward ruin; so it is the very art of sound governance to seek to perfect the intricate and delicate choreography of moral and legal custom that will best promote the sway of reverent reason in city and soul alike.


The Article can be found here:

www.firstthings.com/article/2008/10/freedom-and-decency--12
Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 2/23/2011 12:54 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for this, Daniel! ;-)


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 2/23/2011 1:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes, thanks. I'll wanna chew on it.

Tom


KIXYTΘEMTA

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 2/23/2011 1:20 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Oooh, this one is fire. Last two paragraphs.

"In the end, however, no matter how much we would like to win back the culture around us, we can hope for no “victory” at all — no matter what practical measures we take — if we are not resolved first and foremost to extirpate the habits and presuppositions of secular modernity from within ourselves. What we call the “culture war” is, after all, only one outward manifestation of a spiritual war that is being waged at all times and in all places, but whose first battleground is the heart. We have become, all of us, so accustomed to thinking like modern men and women, to believing that it is the power of the arbitrary in ourselves and in others that defines for us at once our dignity and our political freedom, that we may lack the moral resources necessary to alter the course of our culture, or even to frame intelligible arguments for wishing to do so. If we are serious Christians, or Jews, or even virtuous pagans (assuming any still exist), we should know that mere libertarian license is as often as not quite nefarious in its employment and its effects, and that our political rights are the products of a charter agreed upon for the common good (nothing more or less), and that we have no rights at all not wedded to responsibilities and to the moral claim of our neighbors upon us. Even when we know all this, we probably do not know it deeply enough.

And if we insist on being moderns, or Americans, or democrats, or consumers first, rather than Christians, Jews, and virtuous pagans above all, whose spiritual loyalties transcend all other associations, and if we allow ourselves to believe that true freedom is anything other than the liberation and perfection of a definite nature in conformity with the highest Good — with God Himself, that is — then we will always be divided against ourselves, and will be to some degree accomplices of those very forces whose defeat we think we desire. Indeed, we cannot really affect the course of the nation at all, or even properly imagine what kind of political or social future we should want, so long as we fail to remember (and to fashion our lives according to the knowledge) that we exist only because there is One who has called us from nothingness to be what He desires us to be, not simply what we would like to make ourselves, and that we shall truly be free — and know what freedom is — only when we have no choices left.

Here's my thought: Ideally, the only "constraint" on an individual or a people would be the love of God that "compels" one towards "loving the neighbor as oneself."  A human being and/or society that has fully internalized the Great Commandments. When human consciousness has has been convicted/convinced and sealed into love covenant with God (and also with the "neighbor" because of God), she has "no choices left" but to express God's love in all it's choices and "world compositions."  Basically, this human will follow Augustine's statement: "Love and do what you will."  Here, human freedom is not egocentric or gratification-centered, but truly "personal", meaning fully flowing in it's natural individual-in-community mode.   So, libertarian license per se isn't the real issue.  It is state of the individual and collective "hearts" of the people who have the power to choose.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 2/23/2011 12:49:52 PM (GMT-6)

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 2/23/2011 1:54 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
He chides libertarian free will but then assumes it with every line he writes.

Hart is libertarian on the faculty of will, whatever his politics might be.

Tom


KIXYTΘEMTA

Back to Top
 

Daniel M
Registered Member


Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 263
 
   Posted 2/23/2011 6:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey Tom,

I read the article as applying to praxis, not metaphysics, and the libertarian freedom, or negative freedom, he discusses is political in nature, IE the type of freedom found in liberal democracies.
Back to Top
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
   
Forum Information
Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 2:37 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads