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One Love
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   Posted 4/17/2011 10:40 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom said this on another thread...

One fruitful avenue of study and conversation is noting that given the Islamic view of the Quran as the eternal Word of God, the comparison between our religions is NOT between their book and our book (Quran and Bible) and between their prophet and our prophet (Muhammad and Jesus). No. The real comparison (which Muslims have to see) is between their book and our prophet (Quran and Jesus as divine Word).
 
...
 
Islam went through an early debate over the nature of the Quran (its text). Is it created or uncreated? Those arguing the latter won and became the Orthodox. So the Quran (its pure Arabic form) exists eternally in God. And they believe THIS eternal form/Word was finally incarnated (they dn't use that word, but the eternal word was "given" or "let down" via "inspiration" from heaven to Muhammad) an the Quran we hold in our hands, and touch and read.
 
On the Islamic discussion board I've been at, I've submitted the following idea...and it's been an interesting discussion.  Some have granted it's feasibility...others have chosen to dodge the questions.  Heh.
 
Reposting remix...
 
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Jesus of Nazareth, born of Mary by the power of God, is a single person having two natures (uncreated "speech", Word/Memra* of God /created, human soul and body) in his singularity of existence LIKE UNTO how a single electron has two "natures" ^(wave, non-locality / particle, locality) in it's singularity of existence. In other words, there is a relationship of complementarity between the Uncreated "Word/Memra" of God the Father and a created human body and soul in the ONE human being, Jesus of Nazareth.

* The Memra as a cosmic power furnished Philo the corner-stone upon which he built his peculiar semi-Jewish philosophy. Philo's "divine thought," "the image" and "first-born son" of God, "the archpriest," "intercessor," and "paraclete" of humanity, the "arch type of man" (see Philo), paved the way for the Christian conceptions of the Incarnation ("the Word become flesh") and the Trinity.
 
^  The complementarity principle states that some objects have multiple properties that appear to be contradictory. Sometimes it is possible to switch back and forth between different views of an object to observe these properties, but in principle, it is impossible to view both at the same time, despite their simultaneous coexistence in reality. For example, we can think of an electron as either a particle or a wave, depending on the situation. An object that's both a particle and a wave would seem to be impossible because, normally, such things are mutually exclusive. Nonetheless, an electron is truly both at once.

 
So....

1) Is this depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus contrary to logic? If so, please explain how.

2) Is this depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus incomprehensible to reason? If so, please show where and how.

3) Is this depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus antithetical to fundmental beliefs in Islamic metaphysics (ala Qur'an as "uncreated speech" and the heavenly archetypal "Mother of the Book") ? If so, please show where and how.

 


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/17/2011 3:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
interesting


(o)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/17/2011 3:32 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/byantoro
 
 


(o)

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One Love
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   Posted 4/17/2011 4:57 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, Bruce!  biggrin
 
More I said in the Islamic forum...remix...
 
-------------------------------------------------
 
I would say that the "hypostatic union" is based upon Jesus' humanity being a direct product of a pre-existent, self-disclosing Uncreated "Word" of God to humanity through Mary...bringing forth the Incarnate "Word" of God. Using Philo's language, Jesus of Nazareth is the incarnation of the uncreated "Memra (Word)" of God through which all things are continually created. In essence, God the Father self-communicates himself to humanity in Jesus' human existence by the power of the Holy Spirit of God.

Trinitarian Christian teaching effectively states that the human being Jesus of Nazareth is the effect of God the Father's Uncreated Self-Revealing, Creative "Word" (empowered by the Spirit/Breath of God) taking on created human nature. That is to say that the Eternal "Word" of God has taken on a human body and soul in created time...becoming an individual human being.

Insofar God's Self-Revealing Word is uncreated, it cannot be destroyed. At the same time, the human nature taken on by the "Word" can and does experience human death.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 6/11/2011 11:16 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

It would have been very interesting if Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. had talked about Jesus as God's Prophet and Messenger after Malcolm's Hajj.  What a conversation that might have been...

----------------------------------------------------

"Never have I witnessed such sincere hospitality and overwhelming spirit of true brotherhood as is practiced by people of all colors and races here in this ancient Holy Land, the home of Abraham, Muhammad and all the other Prophets of the Holy Scriptures. For the past week, I have been utterly speechless and spellbound by the graciousness I see displayed all around me by people of all colors.

"I have been blessed to visit the Holy City of Mecca, I have made my seven circuits around the Ka'ba, led by a young Mutawaf named Muhammad, I drank water from the well of the Zam Zam. I ran seven times back and forth between the hills of Mt. Al-Safa and Al Marwah. I have prayed in the ancient city of Mina, and I have prayed on Mt. Arafat."

"There were tens of thousands of pilgrims, from all over the world. They were of all colors, from blue-eyed blondes to black-skinned Africans. But we were all participating in the same ritual, displaying a spirit of unity and brotherhood that my experiences in America had led me to believe never could exist between the white and non-white."

"America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. Throughout my travels in the Muslim world, I have met, talked to, and even eaten with people who in America would have been considered white - but the white attitude was removed from their minds by the religion of Islam. I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all colors together, irrespective of their color."

"You may be shocked by these words coming from me. But on this pilgrimage, what I have seen, and experienced, has forced me to rearrange much of my thought-patterns previously held, and to toss aside some of my previous conclusions. This was not too difficult for me. Despite my firm convictions, I have always been a man who tries to face facts, and to accept the reality of life as new experience and new knowledge unfolds it. I have always kept an open mind, which is necessary to the flexibility that must go hand in hand with every form of intelligent search for truth."

"During the past eleven days here in the Muslim world, I have eaten from the same plate, drunk from the same glass, and slept on the same rug - while praying to the same God - with fellow Muslims, whose eyes were the bluest of blue, whose hair was the blondest of blond, and whose skin was the whitest of white. And in the words and in the deeds of the white Muslims, I felt the same sincerity that I felt among the black African Muslims of Nigeria, Sudan and Ghana."

"We were truly all the same (brothers) - because their belief in one God had removed the white from their minds, the white from their behavior, and the white from their attitude."

"I could see from this, that perhaps if white Americans could accept the Oneness of God, then perhaps, too, they could accept in reality the Oneness of Man - and cease to measure, and hinder, and harm others in terms of their 'differences' in color."

"With racism plaguing America like an incurable cancer, the so-called 'Christian' white American heart should be more receptive to a proven solution to such a destructive problem. Perhaps it could be in time to save America from imminent disaster - the same destruction brought upon Germany by racism that eventually destroyed the Germans themselves."

"Each hour here in the Holy Land enables me to have greater spiritual insights into what is happening in America between black and white. The American Negro never can be blamed for his racial animosities - he is only reacting to four hundred years of the conscious racism of the American whites. But as racism leads America up the suicide path, I do believe, from the experiences that I have had with them, that the whites of the younger generation, in the colleges and universities, will see the handwriting on the walls and many of them will turn to the spiritual path of truth - the only way left to America to ward off the disaster that racism inevitably must lead to."

"Never have I been so highly honored. Never have I been made to feel more humble and unworthy. Who would believe the blessings that have been heaped upon an American Negro? A few nights ago, a man who would be called in America a white man, a United Nations diplomat, an ambassador, a companion of kings, gave me his hotel suite, his bed. Never would I have even thought of dreaming that I would ever be a recipient of such honors - honors that in America would be bestowed upon a King - not a Negro."

"All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of all the Worlds.

Sincerely,

Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (Malcolm X)

(From the AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF MALCOLM X with assistance from Alex Haley, the author of ROOTS)



********************************************************************

Quotes from Martin Luther King, Jr...

"Let us develop a kind of dangerous unselfishness. One day a man came to Jesus; and he wanted to raise some questions about some vital matters in life. At points, he wanted to trick Jesus, and show him that he knew a little more than Jesus knew, and through this, throw him off base. Now that question could have easily ended up in a philosophical and theological debate. But Jesus immediately pulled that question from mid-air, and placed it on a dangerous curve between Jerusalem and Jericho. And he talked about a certain man, who fell among thieves. You remember that a Levite and a priest passed by on the other side. They didn't stop to help him. And finally a man of another race came by. He got down from his beast, decided not to be compassionate by proxy. But with him, administered first aid, and helped the man in need. Jesus ended up saying, this was the good man, because he had the capacity to project the "I" into the "thou," and to be concerned about his brother."  

 

"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction. So when Jesus says "Love your enemies," he is setting forth a profound and ultimately inescapable admonition. ... The chain reaction of evil — hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars — must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation."

 

****************************************************************

Torah-asserted, Jesus-affirmed Commandments from God
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”


Torah-asserted, Jesus-affirmed Criteria for "Loving Your Neighbor As Yourself"(Leviticus 19:9-18)
1) When you gain from your work, don't just think about yourself. Think of the poor and the wayfarer.
2) Don't steal.
3) Don't operate by false pretenses or motives.
4) Don't lie to each other.
5) Don't oppress or rob your neighbor.
6) Don't mistreat the physically (or mentally) challenged.
7) Don't promote injustice or partiality. Judge righteously.
8) Don't slander others.
9) Don’t threaten the life of your neighbors.
10) Don't hate your brother (or sister) "in your heart."
11) Don't take vengeance for yourself.
12) Don't hold a grudge against your neighbor.

The "New" Commandment from Jesus
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another."

"This is my command: Love each other."

Verification of Jesus' teachings by His disciples and followers
"For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another." --1 John 3:11

For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” --Galatians 5:13-14, Paul

The Core Message of Jesus as God's Prophet and Messenger:
Human beings are to express singular worship of and submission to the One Uncreated Creator by a) thanksgiving, adoration and glorification to the Creator and b) works of loving-kindness and compassion to others and ourselves. In this, we are also to consecrate ourselves and be holy, compassionate, merciful, and loving because our Creator is holy, compassionate, merciful and loving.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 6/11/2011 11:30:33 AM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 6/23/2011 2:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D, check this out: http://www.yale.edu/faith/ne/documents/ChristianCenturyAllahandtheTrinityVolf_000.pdf

Tom


KIXYTΘEMTA

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