Open Theism Discussion Board
  HomeLog InRegisterSearch the ForumHelp
   
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > (No Subject)
 
Forum Quick Jump
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 5/9/2011 1:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Here we go again! I'm not sure what to think. On the one hand, yeah. But on the other hand, I think Shane is missing something.

 

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.sojo.net%2F2011%2F04%2F11%2Fmy-letter-to-the-irs-i-reserve-the-right-not-to-kill%2F&h=1440c

 

My Letter to the IRS: ‘I Reserve the Right Not to Kill’

by Shane Claiborne 04-11-2011

 

As a Christian, Easter marks the most stunning act of grace and enemy-love in human history — Jesus’ death and resurrection. As Jesus was being tortured and executed, he cried out for mercy, even for those terrorists who hurt him. As his buddy Peter picked up a sword and cut the ear off one of the persecutors, Jesus scolded Peter and picked up the ear and healed the wounded persecutor. The early Christians understood the message — it was a message of amazing grace. It was a message about how there is something worth dying for, but nothing in the world worth killing for — not even freedom or democracy. One of the early Christians said, “When Jesus disarmed Peter, he disarmed every Christian.” After all, we don’t see Christians picking up swords again for hundreds of years.

 

I am one of those Christians who believes we should still have the right not to kill, even in an empire that has a military bigger than Rome’s. Perhaps that’s why it has been hard for me to navigate what to do as tax season approaches, with so much of our federal tax money going towards militarism. It was a crisis familiar to the early Christians who were accused of insurrection and tax evasion because they had an allegiance that subverted, or superseded, their national allegiance.

 

So I respectfully filed my taxes this year, and I sent the IRS the letter below. My intention is to respect my country and contribute to the common good, but also to uncompromisingly follow the way of the nonviolent Jesus this Easter — in a world that continues to pick up the sword … and die by the sword.

Dear Internal Revenue Service,

 

I am filing my 1040 here. As you will see, I made $9,600 this past year, and found that according to the 1040 form, I owe $324.44 of that to federal taxes. While I am glad to contribute money to the common good and towards things that promote life and dignity, especially for the poor and most vulnerable people among us, I am deeply concerned that 30 percent of the federal budget goes towards military spending, with $117 billion going to support the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. (Further, when we include the 18 percent that goes towards past military costs, such as the $380 billion in debt payments, 80 percent of which are military related debts, that number goes up to a total military budget of $1,372 billion — nearly half of the federal budget). My Christian faith and my human conscience require me to respectfully reserve the right not to kill, and to refrain from contributing money towards weapons and the military.

 

For this reason, I am enclosing a check for $227.11, which is, according to the form, 70 percent of what I owe. The remaining $97.33 represents 30 percent of my tax payment, the amount that would go toward military spending. I will donate this remaining 30 percent to a recognized U.S. nonprofit organization working to bring peace and reconciliation. My faith also compels me to submit to the governing authorities, which is why I am writing you respectfully and transparently here. I am glad to discuss this further if you have any questions.

 

May we continue to build the world we dream of,

Shane Claiborne


KIXYTΘEMTA

Back to Top
 

BBBCanada
Registered Member




Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 5/9/2011 9:26 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
At least he's consistent. I wonder if others will follow in his footsteps. But even more importantly, (I think), is how his religion is affecting (his) life beyond himself. I imagine that if Shane had his way this be the basis for policy making at least for other conscientious objectors.


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 5/10/2011 5:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Does Jesus' paying the temple tax undermine Shane's argument since a percentage of that tax went to support the temple guards who were involved in violent policing?

Tom


KIXYTΘEMTA

Back to Top
 

Similitude
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
 
   Posted 5/10/2011 6:49 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
When Jesus said to give to Caesar that which IS Caesar's, was he not saying the same thing as Paul--that we OWE the State because of the divinely-authorized ministry unto good they perform? If not, how could Jesus have been saying anything derivable from the two greatest commandments? I used to be confused by the same issue. It finally dawned on me that Paul is not telling us to pay taxes for future use such that I should adjudicate the propriety thereof. Rather, we are paying them for what they've already done for us. It's payment for services RENDERED. In that sense, it's no different than the complicity entailed in doing business with other sinners. We're not NECESSARILY responsible for what they do with the money we pay them for REAL goods and LEGITIMATE services.



 

Post Edited (Similitude) : 5/10/2011 6:54:50 AM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 5/10/2011 7:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Complicity is the word I was looking for, yeah. I think that basically the Church is, by virtue of the fact that its life in a fallen world means it sometimes cannot avoid participating in the fallen structures or orientation of that world.

Shane could say that he's not going to pay for violent services rendered in the past, Jeff. I'm all for living prophetically and for not participating in violence. I'm just not sure about this tax thing. Shane is a pacifist. So he doesn't think believers should participate in any way in State violence (however legitimate that, say, policing might be).

My thing is this--what about all the other ways Shane's life (and mine) inadvertently support violent and ungodly systems without knowing it? Can we really live in the world and be SO detached from it that such support never occurs?

Tom


KIXYTΘEMTA

Back to Top
 

BBBCanada
Registered Member




Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 5/10/2011 12:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah, see this is what bothers me about those on the religious left. They have their separatist agendas that they can't participate in and blame those on the right for picking and choosing what agendas they will be part of and of course there may be some truth to this but it seems no less true of the religious left. Why would Shane not participate in "legitmate violence" but pay taxes that support highways that transport not only all sorts of malicious evil but workers who live lives that are filled with debauchary? Or what about the $10, 000 he made? Is he not participating in the worldy system of how the very acquisition of money tends to "flatten" things such that their true value is not realized? This is a no-brainer that I tend to think is quite junvenile.


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Back to Top
 

BBBCanada
Registered Member




Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 5/10/2011 1:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
By the way, the $97.33 is so little that the IRS will probably do nothing.  Which tells me that not giving this money to the IRS for military purposes and giving it to an organization working to bring peace and reconciliation must make one feel good that they did their part at the end of the day. Wow.  That's a big sacrifice.  hmmm 


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Back to Top
 

BBBCanada
Registered Member




Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 5/10/2011 2:10 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

And speaking of big sacrifices. I think most Christians take the rendering unto Caesar statement to be saying something about political theory. And it isn’t. Jesus seems to be telling them in those short dozen words that they need to give their whole lives to God which they weren’t doing, which is why he calls them hypocrites. In other words, its as if Jesus is saying, “Give to Caesar what rightfully belongs to him including this coin with his image on it. Use it to pay taxes to him. Its not everything, but it is important nonetheless. But then, open your eyes! Don’t you see what properly belongs to God??? You owe EVERYTHING to God including what you give to Caesar. So give God yourselves--you know? The COIN that has God’s image on it?? Yeah, give him the whole of your life!!”

Now giving to Caesar what belongs to him is the same as giving to parents or teachers or any other human authority what belongs to them--the “authorities” are always under God. In the context of the kingdom even the most powerful Caesar has relatively little authority. The real weight of Jesus command is that God holds every other authority accountable to him. They exist because of him. And instead of saying something like, “God gives earthly authorities power to punish evil doers” and simply leave it at that, why don’t we say something more like, “God gives Caesar his limited authority, not simply to punish evil doers, but because God CONTINUES to hold humans accountable to administer justice in creation.” And if that is so, then can one make the case that paying taxes even for military purposes can be about administering justice in the world? Shouldn’t this be what Shane should be focusing in on? Hmmmm…so, the next time you see the deductions off your next paycheck shouldn't you pray that God will use your taxes to administer justice in creation?


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 5/10/2011 3:09:10 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

Similitude
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
 
   Posted 5/10/2011 6:34 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think we have to concede that certain kinds of complicity ARE wrong. If that's true, then we have to adjudicate each on its own terms. With the State, we have the fact that God authorized it to do what it, at least in part, does. Thus, we owe it for that service.

On the other hand, if I had an option of one of two stores for purchasing necessities, and I had a reason to infer that one store-owner would do greater harm to humanity with the profits than the other store-owner would, then I would be right in minimizing my complicity to the best of my informed ability.

But the State holds a monopoly on its own ministry. So that complicity is different. I don't have an alternative. But if the State isn't authorized by God to use force in a deterring way, in the first place, then it would seem that no taxes are compulsory in any moral sense of the term. That's why I can't see how Shane is adjudicating his distinction.


 

Back to Top
 

BBBCanada
Registered Member




Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 5/10/2011 9:26 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Obviously it would be very hard to NOT be complicit with say materialism in some form or another.  But of the kinds of complicity that are wrong? Someone might knowingly be complicit in evil but have no other choice and ultimately the choice that is made is between them and God.  So I don't think the store owner analogy is the best as it doesn't fit neatly into how we might do things.

about your third paragraph Jeff, it really doesn't compute with me in terms of sphere sovereignty.  The state IS to act in a deterring way in the sense of acting judiciously between the different spheres of authority and themselves and with regard to the state itself and the other spheres. Taxes are in order in this way.


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 5/10/2011 11:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ah, complicity. All the old heads here remember that word VEEEERY well, I'm assuming. ;-)

Anyway, I do think that there needs to be a "theology of complicity" as it were. Based on the Incarnation. Jesus, being who he was and where he was, was necessarily complicit in the systems of his days to some extent. Jesus got unearned rights being a MALE in a MALE-DOMINATED Jewish society. Jesus BENEFITED from the conquests that Rome were making at the time. To deny these things would be to deny the fully humanity of Jesus as a human being who existed as a participant in actual human culture.

What I have always taken from the complicity thing is this: God, loving purity, is willing to "get his hands dirty" to save his Creation. God doesn't like fallenness, but will use it subversively to bring the situation more out of fallenness.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 5/10/2011 11:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Shane:
My Christian faith and my human conscience require me to respectfully reserve the right not to kill, and to refrain from contributing money towards weapons and the military.

I just hope he's doing this as an expression of Spirit-lead love for God...and not some sense of moral self-justification before God. Those are two totally different things.  I'll just believe that to be so. :)


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Back to Top
 

BBBCanada
Registered Member




Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 5/10/2011 11:38 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Speaking of a theology of complicity, isn't the timing of the incarnation of interest with respect to this question?  I mean think about it. The Son comes to earth at a particular time and in a particular place with a particular political landscape in place.  You know, "when the times were right?"


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Back to Top
 

BBBCanada
Registered Member




Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 5/11/2011 12:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ummm... I think you just said that so ignore the question. Carry on.


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Back to Top
 

BBBCanada
Registered Member




Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 5/11/2011 1:57 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Duh...actually the point I was trying to convey was that the Incarnation happened DECISIVELY at that point in time. It wasn't as if God said, "Oh...I think this is the right time. OK...let's do this now" as if it was random. I think that is an important element.  So the question isn't just the time and place, but WHY this time and WHY this place? 


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 5/11/2011 2:00:26 AM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

Similitude
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
 
   Posted 5/11/2011 5:46 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brandon: about your third paragraph Jeff, it really doesn't compute with me in terms of sphere sovereignty.  The state IS to act in a deterring way in the sense of acting judiciously between the different spheres of authority and themselves and with regard to the state itself and the other spheres. Taxes are in order in this way.
 
Jeff: I wasn't addressing sphere sovereignty. I was simply saying, to clarify what Tom had apparently missed from my perspective, that insomuch as the State IS to act in a deterring way if it is to SUCCESSFULLY perform its ministry AT ALL, we literally have to be complicit in some sense with their failures in that regard if we pay taxes. So the real choice, as I see it, is not subsidizing (by taxes) military force vs. other State force; it's the choice to pay taxes or not. That's why I'm not seeing how Shane adjudicates the specific distinction he's making.
 
It seems to me he is misunderstanding the true ground for our obligation to pay taxes. The State, per scripture, does not seem to be an institution you contribute voluntarily to. It is a divinely authorized institution that God EXPECTS to perform a specific ministry. And we are therefore expected to pay for that ministry.



 

Post Edited (Similitude) : 5/11/2011 6:19:28 AM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

BBBCanada
Registered Member




Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 5/11/2011 10:13 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Like, like, TOTALLY.


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Back to Top
 

Sahid
Megistered Rember




Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
 
   Posted 5/11/2011 5:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

"Complicity" is a word Shane didn't use.  My guess is that he feels taxes are a too-direct form of involvement which would move him into the realm of culpability.  The 'complicity' issue is a red herring - a case of a word meaning so much that it ends up describing everything and so becoming useless.  "Complicit" ends up meaning "existing."  So let's trash the term and move on.

It seems that there are quite a few people out there who've had bad experiences with arrogant left-leaning Christians.  That doesn't surprise me.  But I've met Shane.  He's a nice guy.  He does practice what he preaches.  He puts up with snarky comments like...

"By the way, the $97.33 is so little that the IRS will probably do nothing.  Which tells me that not giving this money to the IRS for military purposes and giving it to an organization working to bring peace and reconciliation must make one feel good that they did their part at the end of the day. Wow.  That's a big sacrifice. " 

...and somehow manages to remain gentle.

I don't personally agree with the tax resisting approach.  While I agree that the money is put to evil purposes, I think the logic of the cross rules out putting our faith the god of 'effectiveness' or 'control'.  The empire took Jesus' body and did evil with it, yet Jesus claims to have been capable of resisting.  Today the empire takes our money and does evil with it, and like Jesus, we are called to hope in God rather than the efforts of some form of resistance.  I characterize it as supreme pessimism with regard to this age which we are told is passing away, and supreme optimism with regard to the kingdom of God.  This does not rule out all planning or strategizing, but does remove such activity from the realm of moral obligation.  Finding just the right way to subvert Babylon is not our calling (but nor is it forbidden); living a life informed of it's inevitable fall is our vocation.

Back to Top
 

BBBCanada
Registered Member




Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 5/11/2011 9:31 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm not saying he IS boasting.  I'm sure he is humble.  He's living in such a way that he believes God has called him to.  But I do think many if not most Christians work much like computers--you're working with one program but there's always another one running in the background burning up energy.  I try not to be judgmental of peoples motives but why broadcast this? The majority of Christians are not going to live like Shane.  I know of other Christians who eat out of garbage cans (the good stuff).  They just don't broadcast it.  If he wants to give to an organization of his choosing?  Do I need to know?  One almost gets the sense, "Hey everyone, you're doing it wrong!  You're supporting violence!". What other kind of msg is someone who pays taxes suppose to get from that?


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Back to Top
 

Sahid
Megistered Rember




Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
 
   Posted 5/13/2011 7:38 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Take your last question with your first two sentences. Maybe he is taking a stab at doing the right thing, and maybe he does it publically (1) in order to engage in the larger discussion about these issues and (2) because he has a big group of people who deserve to be informed about how he is handling these sorts of things. I visited them during the week that they devoted to sending thank you cards; they have a ton of people who they are connected with (financially and otherwise) and at a certain point it's practically impossible to drop everyone a note or even maintain the list of email addresses.

It is possible to act publically without the intention of sending a condemning, dogmatic message. And Shane shouldn't be required to preface every public statement he makes with this fairly obvious truth just in case 'someone who pays taxes' can't arrive at it on his/her own.
Back to Top
 

BBBCanada
Registered Member




Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 5/13/2011 12:24 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Hmmm...sure...engage with the issues publicly and yes it can be done without condescension or condemning.  But if you are going to do that, you really do have to watch your p's and q's.  Jamie Smith last week had to explain that his comments on his blog about universalism were "off the cuff" because everyone was taking his blog TOO seriously. So some prefacing is necessary.  When you look at THIS ISSUE he may have to do something like that because Christians who comes down on the other side of the spectrum tend to think that this could be an occasion for condescension and division. 

Hey, I'm going to write a letter stating that I won't support violence with my taxes (who really wants to do that?) but I haven't thought through the complicity issues (which is in part why this STILL NEEDS TO BE a complicity issue and not a culability issue as noted by Asher because the point is is that Shane seems to be just a tad ironic/contradictory about being COMPLICIT with violence yet is complicit with so much else.  If he doesn't want to be culpable with violence then there is a helluva lot more he could be doing with regard to being culpable with so much else at least once he looks into those issues and by his NOT looking into them he will then be culpable by omission at least) but if you support the military through your taxes you are not only complicit but culpable, you know better now.


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 5/13/2011 4:46:16 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
   
Forum Information
Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 6:22 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads