Open Theism Discussion Board
  HomeLog InRegisterSearch the ForumHelp
   
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > (No Subject)
 
Forum Quick Jump
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

Mephi2K
Registered Member


Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713
 
   Posted 7/26/2001 7:01 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Preliminary Note: I'm very busy right now and cannot post very often. But this is bad on my heart and I want to vent. I apologize in advance for this...but I really wanted to get this out. If you don't want to read this, I completely understand. This is not meant to be offensive to anyone, but this is how I feel right now...

--------------------------------------------

I am, at this point, QUITE concerned, yet disillusioned with lots of contemporary theologizing. I went to a discussion last night at a church that shall remain nameless. The discussion was on the nature of salvation. Basically, the minister was advocating some form of so-called inclusivism. But boys and girls, I KNOW inclusivism...and this wasn't it. The minister seemed like he was trying to go the route of Clark Pinnock and Robert Brow in "Unbounded Love: A Good News Theology for the 21st Century" Especially Chapter 8: "Hell: Rejecting Love" (which I also have problems with...but anyway) But he went just a tad farther than that. The dude was practically advocating total universalism. Straight up. Not only that, but a statement was made that set my teeth on edge. I'm paraphrasing.

"I don't care what people say about this doctrine. We are going to share this good news with the world. You just watch! In ten years, we are going to see Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Jews...all kinds of religions coming to this church to celebrate the love of God."

Oh, and you should have seen the crowd! Eating it up like so much pig slop. It was priceless! Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not so mad at the point that he was espousing universalism. That happens many places. I'm so very mad because he TRIED to make it sound like it WASN'T universalism and he was never truly being clear and unambiguous!!! He was being so obtuse, emotional, and sarcastic that everyone looked at his PATHOS and obviously didn't really understand what he was saying. This is manipulation, people. Being somewhat theologically trained made this nigh unbearable for me. The way that his interpreted some scripture was HIGHLY suspect. In one case, he quoted from Acts 17:16-29. On that basis, he argued for his intensified "inclusivism" where ultimately religions didn't matter, just piety of heart to the Divine. I wanted to scream out at the top of my voice "FINISH THE PASSAGE!!"

Acts 17:30-31
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."


May this have put a kink in the teaching? But this is exactly what happened. But I'm not surprised. This is exactly what goes on nowadays in much theologizing. And do you know what's REALLY priceless about all of it? If you genuinely try to believe in a hell of eternal torment or something like that...you're almost morally equivalent to a friggin date rapist.

"I don't understand why so many Christians WANT others to go to hell."

"That view of punishment is only for sick, unloved people. God is a loving God."

"How can you believe in such a view of God, having that kind of hell."

grrr....

I'm tired, y'all. I'm tired of people always criticizing people who take the idea of hell seriously in a way that conflicts with THEIR moral schema as being "vindictive" "sadistic" and all that. I'm TIRED of people talking about predestination as if it were a friggin ROBOT factory and nothing more. I'm tired of all the emotion-tugging, overmoralistic CRAP that is being spewed all over the place nowadays. What said on another thread was right. Lots of Scripture IS hard to digest once you do it. And...surprising to many...you MAY see things in there that you don't like or may offend your pitible moral sensibilities. Heh. But what do we do? See how far we can twist Scripture to bend to OUR standards or what is good, fair, and just.
Being completely honest, I don't think the statement "Let God be God" has ANY real meaning anymore. For real. It's a completely vacuous statement!! What should be said is "Let God be an amalgam of Carl Rogers, Iyanla Vanzant, Norman Vincent Peale, Oprah Winfrey, and the Dalai Lama"

Oh, and the BEST part. After the discussion, I went to a person I'm familiar with who works with the minister. I knew that he graduated from seminary and I knew her position on things already. Very staunch on that position too. I went up to her afterwards and asked her. "Well, what did you think about all of that?" She said, "Well, I understand what he's saying...but I'm not getting fired." I looked in her eyes, and it was there that I began feel like I was a sinking ship with no lifeboats. "What the hell am I DOING this for," I asked myself.


As you can probably tell, I'm just a tad hot. Sorry about that. But, hey, if I can't be honest among friends (and potentially hundreds other people watching) who CAN I be honest with? But back to his statement about the ten years. About all the people of different faiths in one church. I think he was more prophetic than he realizes.

*******************************************

I am not a conspiracy theorist, but I truly believe something. I believe that we are moving towards a one world religion. Think about Vatican II. Think about the rampant movement towards universalism and annihilationalism. Think about the more liberal fringes of Islam that are occuring now. I believe that we are moving towards the idea of a God who is basically:

1) a repository of unconditional positive regard or love.
2) a source for hope (either here or for the life after)
3) a source for principle of life-affirming paradigms (justice, love, etc)
4) a source of dignity for human beings
5) a God who, IF personal, has relinquished all rights of lordship to his Creation.
6) an unbiased universalist, IF there is an afterlife (Possibly annihilational AT WORST)

The God of the Future I see will be little more than this. A great big cheerleader/shoulder to cry on/being to hope in. Theology will be nothing more than purely human attempts at imaginative, yet utterly pragmatic coping mechanisms for life in the form of worldviews...using the paradigm above. Lord? Master? King? Sovereign Ruler of the Heavens? These terms will be useless. In looking at some of the theological shifts in the major religions like Judaism, Islam and Christianity, I definitely see this as a trend. The exclusivity of Christ is being sacrificed (or expanded to meaninglessness) more and more. Of course, postmodernism and its buddies (pluralism, multicultural sensitivity, etc) have some things to do with it. I honestly fear that the day may come when the statement "Jesus is Lord" may become superfluous as we continue to look to the Great Big Heart in the Sky and thank Him/Her/It/They/Us for everything.

This quote is from Dr. James Fowler. He is the psychologist who came up with a theory about faith stages in human beings. In his work "Faithful Change", pages 191-192. He speaks from within the Christian context, but his ideas go beyond that...

quote:
Equally if not more important in undermining coherent thought about God's providence in our time, however, have been the collective experiences that have thrust us into the postmodern era. Perhaps it is enough to say that for millions of people, the God of modern theology began to die in the gas-filled trenches and bloody battlefields of World War I and was radically called into question by the Holocaust.


Going further down:

quote:
It is important to ask, "Who is the God who is dying in late modernity?" What visions of God's presence and activit in history no longer seem credible or important? This is a highly complex question, and one cannot begin to address adequately here. But it seems clear that for many the dying God includes at least the following:

*the God who symbolized the hope and assurance of inevitable human progress;

*the impassible, sovereign God of classical theism, with His omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence;

*the God tied to a shaming doctrine of the Fall, in which humans are destined to inevitable sin, due to the disobedience of Adam and Eve, an yet held responsible for that sin;

*the moralistic God whose chief role lay in the reinforcement of the commands of parental superegos;

*the God who legitimated the collusion between thrones and altars and blessed the accompanying patterns of economic power and social class systems, in the variety of monarchical, socialist-democratic, or capitalist-democratic forms;

*the God with the 'invisible hand' who could be counted on to manage everything benignly, from the 'free market economy' and the avoidance of nuclear war, to the preservation and healing of nature.

*the God of nationalistic doctrines of 'manifest destiny' and world imperialism

*the God of the gospel of wealth; and

*the male gendered God.


I think that he's dead on. And he's not the only person talking like this, as you probably know. And not surprisingly, the idea of God as any type of "Lord", "King" or anything like that is kicked out of the mix. The view of God Fowler paints later is basically the type that I had described above. As he would put it, religions are expressions under the broad umbrella of the HUMAN vocation. God is the big creative unity in diversity/source of unconditional love in the sky. That's about it.


This is probably just my bitter state right now talking, but I will say it anyway. Theology is DYING, if not dead. We are now indulging in ANTHROPOLOGY dressed in theological garb. The "God of Praxis" is in vogue. What do we want to be? What gives our sense of purpose ultimate meaning? How should we live? How should we act morally, spiritually, etc? WHO exemplifies these traits? Hey, let's call him/her/it/them/us GOD. YEAH! And Christs, Buddhas, Avatars of the world...their just expressions in part of this wonderful truth. YEAH, YEAH! Oh, but what about worship? Well, let's check our notepads here. Is God worthy of our worship? (dons the judges robe) You know we can't worship an unworthy God, you know. Wouldn't be prudent. Not just any view of God will do. Right, right. He is the perfect being, you know. And perfect beings have perfect goodness, right? Right, right. Would this God do anything strictly for his own pleasure? YOU IDIOT! Don't you know that God's ultimate pleasure IS our ultimate pleasure?!? God takes the greatest joy in making US happy! Oh, sweet. Then that IS worthy of worship...


So, what's my ultimate dilemma? I'm sick and tired. I sick of the smugness and self-righteousness exhibited from liberal and conservative theologians. I'm sick of seeing people theological PANHANDLERS doing so-called "study of the Scriptures" just to pass off their own moralistic beliefs. I'm sick of people saying they have "honest" differences of opinion, when many times they are FAR from honest. I'm sick of political chicanery in what is SUPPOSED to be spiritual searches for truth. I'm sick of the emotional and spiritual abuse perpetrated by self-proclaimed "do-gooders" Basically I'm sick of people treating this whole God thing like it was THEIR thing. And I don't know if I can take it anymore. My close friend (the one who is no longer a Christian after going to seminary) and I were talking at Border's one day. I talked to him about my frustrations with the lack of consistency, unchecked sin, unbridled arrogance, mealy-mouth bleeding heart moralism, and unscionable self-righteousness in the face of God. "What about TRUTH," I bellowed. "What about trying to be COMPLETELY honest with all the facts, no matter HOW they turn out???" He basically told me that I was on a fool's errand. "People will believe what they want to believe, dude. Dialogues become little more than people using other people to convince themselves of their own position." Then he said something that chilled me to the bone! "The search for spiritual truth IS the search for happiness. They are now one and the same. You just haven't learned that yet." Those words still ring in my ears. Was he right, y'all? Am I the proverbial dinosaur on that score? Am I wasting my time even trying to be a theologian, seeking "truth" wherever it may be found? I'm beginning to think that I am.

AHHH. I feel better. I would ask that no one take this post as my saying that NO ONE ELSE feels like I do...or that no one else values truth. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just posting how I honestly feel about things right now. Hope you don't mind. As I said before, I'm very busy and I won't be posting for a bit. I would appreciate your prayers. For my wife and her current situation (which I cannot discuss right now) For my beautiful son, and his safe return home from visiting with relatives. Lastly for me. For strength, sanity, and resolve. If you love me at all, please pray for me. Thank you.

And thank you for hearing me.

On Official Hiatus,


PS: Mouse, I promise that when I get back, you will be the first person I answer, 'kay?



Edited by - Mephi2K on 07/26/2001 1:16:09 PM
Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 6/8/2011 8:48 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just shows you how God works. After 10 years, I do believe God is like this...

1) the ground of unconditional positive regard or love, joy, and peace
2) the only source for hope (both here or for the life after)
3) the only source for principle of life-affirming paradigms (justice, love, etc)
4) the only source of dignity for human beings
5) a God who freely serves Creation in his Lordship.
6) the ground of an Eventual Universal Reconciliation of all things.

The 2001 Me would be hating the 2011 Me so much. HA!

But I got my answer in my everlasting search for truth: Love is ultimate Truth. (God is Love) Love is the ground floor level reality of all that is.  Really and truly. It's too obvious now.

It was always this way.  Now, I'm more free to see it.

Ain't God sumthin'? :-)


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 6/8/2011 8:51:44 AM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 6/8/2011 12:49 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
;o)


KIXYTΘEMTA

Back to Top
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
   
Forum Information
Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 5:14 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads