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Similitude
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   Posted 8/6/2011 11:08 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
 
 
Greg concludes:
 
"This strikes me as constituting a rather strong reductio ad absurdem argument that baby universalism is false."
 
I always found baby universalism hard to square with scripture. To me UR makes the problem go away. Greg advocates post-mortem development. But what would that look like? Is it a world similar to ours with humans that died as infants reincarnated into it? Using parsimony, it seems this route raises more questions than it answers. So long as God originally intended for freedom to produce His highest intended satisfaction from creation and competently designed the world for that possibility (solving the apparent problem of evil) and God gets sufficient satisfaction from the freedom that occurs in this life, all that needs to be explained metaphysically is accounted for. UR takes care of the rest. No need for mere baby universalism.


 

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One Love
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   Posted 8/7/2011 7:46 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, now. Check this out! JOHN PIPER.

------------------------------

Why do you believe that infants who die go to heaven?

I believe it not because of a sentimental notion that babies aren't participants in the Fall. They are. Babies are participants in original sin.

The question is whether God has a way to cover their sin even before they have a chance to believe. Babies are not mentally able to put faith in Jesus yet, at least not in any terms that we ordinarily understand. And so I think that God provides another way to cover their sin.

I base my belief that God does not condemn babies who die on Romans 1:19-20:

For what can be known about God is plain to them [that is, to mankind] because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. Therefore, they are without excuse.

The "therefore" at the end says that mankind would seem to have an excuse if they had not seen clearly in nature what God is like. And so, because I don't think little babies can process nature and make conclusions about God's grace, glory or justice, it seems they would fall into the category of still having an excuse.

The way I see it is that God ordains, for his own wise purposes, that at the judgment day all the children who died in infancy will be covered by the blood of Jesus. And they will come to faith, either in heaven immediately or later in the resurrection. And God will not condemn them because he wants to manifest openly and publicly that he does not condemn those who did not have the mental capacities to put their faith in him.

I don't think imbeciles have that capacity, and I don't think babies do. Therefore I hold out hope to parents that the loss of an infant is not their eternal loss.
 
-------------------------------

Heh.  He may be closer to universalism than I thought.

You know what?  If Piper caught a hold of the EO view of Grace, Logos/logoi...AND went back to his John Edwardian roots...he'd be right there.  Heck, he could even (believe it or not) maintain his SOVEREIGNTY kick a bit ala Edwardian occasionalism.

More...

------------------------------

I think they're all saved. In other words, I don't buy the principle that says that children born into "covenant families" are secure, and children born into "non-covenant families" aren't. I don't go there.

My reason for thinking they're all saved is because of the principle in Romans 1 where Paul argues that all people know God, and they are "without excuse" because they do not honor him or glorify him as God.

His argument is that they are without excuse because they know things, as though accountability in the presence of God at the Last Judgment will be based, at least partly, on whether they had access to necessary knowledge.

And God says they've all got access to knowledge, because they can look at the things he has made and see his power and deity. But they suppress that knowledge instead of submitting to it, therefore they're all condemned.

So I ask the question: OK, is the principle being raised there that, if you don't have access to the knowledge that causes you to be held accountable, therefore you will not be accountable? And I think that's the case.

I think babies and imbeciles—that is, those with profound mental disabilities—don't have access to the knowledge that they will be called to account for. Therefore, somehow in some way, God, through Christ, covers these people.

So that, in a nutshell, is why I think all children who die in infancy are elect and will be, through Jesus Christ, saved in ways that I may not know how, as God honors this principle of accountability.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 8/7/2011 7:52:07 AM (GMT-5)

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Similitude
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   Posted 8/7/2011 7:51 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Interesting. Piper "holds out hope." He doesn't have text. Well, isn't that what universalists are doing? Holding out a hope that seems just as grounded in that same perfect sympathy of God that would explain baby universalism? And doesn't the text "God is love" seem to mean God is perfectly sympathetic? So the same text would explain it all.


 

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One Love
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   Posted 8/7/2011 7:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here's the kicker: Greg can't affirm specific baby universalism at all because he's bound to the free-will argument. If babies have a "free ticket to heaven" without having previously making a faith choice, then, to Greg, the free-will argument falls to the ground.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 8/9/2011 8:01 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OK. just a htought. My own thinking, and iff the cuff... (rare)

not 'sent to hell' in punishment

but suffering the consequences of the fall just like the rest of us

think of cs lewis' Great Divorce where any effect of sin made for a lessening of weightiness that translated into pron-ness to feel pain from grass blade tips pointiness.

BASICALY THIS.... any lack of ability to love pains both persons, NOT just thr onr most hampered from loving. Love and painare shared.


'what do y'all think?


(o)

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Similitude
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   Posted 8/10/2011 6:46 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
So, B, are you saying that humans that died as infants will be pained post-mortem because they lacked the ability to love pre-mortem?


 

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 8/10/2011 11:02 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
no.

rather i was mulllng over a suffering done vicariously that bears the burden of those others who have linuyed


(o)

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Similitude
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   Posted 8/11/2011 6:19 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ah. got ya.


 

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