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|  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 9/8/2011 6:12 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Solution for Evangelical Two-Storiedness.
It's either true or false that I am "right here, right now"...wherever and whenever that is.
It's either true or false that God is "right here, right now"...wherever and whenever that is.
If a person believes that both claims are true simultaneously--that both God and I are "right here, right now"--then the next question is...
What is God doing "right here, right now" besides merely being a uncreated personal presence permeating and observing us?
If one is willing to believe that God is unceasingly and immediately communicating being to all creaturely "right here, right now" experience and it's context...then such a one should find it impossible to continue believing in a two-storied view of God and Creation.
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Sample convo:
Are you right here, right now?
Yeah.
Is God personally right here, right now?
Yeah. God's omnipresent.
So you are both right here, right now?
Yeah.
And you believe that that would be true wherever YOU were to travel, right?
Yeah. Like I said, God's omnipresent.
Ok. So...what's God doing right here, right now?
He's sees us, loves us, guiding us, working through us, all that...
Hmmm...is God keeping you in existence right here, right now by the power of his Word?
Oh, yes! (Good evangelical answer. Heb. 1:3, Col. 1:17, etc)
Is God always doing that for everybody and everything in Creation?
Well, I guess, yeah.
So, how is it possible for God to be "away"--or even "driven away" from anybody...including sinners? How can someone be ACTUALLY separated from the empowering, immediate personal Presence of God, in other words? Better question. How is it possible for God to be someone we mainly seek to experience in the future in "heaven"...when he's always "right here, right now"? Shouldn't we be looking for God in the obvious place: right here, right now...where we are?
Hmm...well...
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 9/8/2011 6:36:37 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 9/11/2011 8:11 AM (GMT -6) |   | | This is part of why I appreciated what Sam Harris had to say about human experience of transcendence and the present moment. He was speaking from a completely atheistic perspective based upon what we know of neurophysiology and his own subjective experience. But it matches so much with what the mystics experience that he has to ALLOW that they would understand what he was talking about, but exclusively in terms of their religious presuppositions and beliefs.
The thing is that Sam Harris's idea of the possiblity of human experience via the brain link QUITE WELL with what Loder said about how God created the human brain to work.
I think that's cool.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 9/11/2011 8:25:16 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 9/11/2011 8:40 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Some of Sam Harris' "September 11"...
What is the meaning of life? What is our purpose on earth? These are some of the great, false questions of religion. We need not answer them—for they are badly posed—but we can live our answers all the same. At a minimum, we must create the conditions for human flourishing in this life—the only life of which we can be certain. That means we should not terrify our children with thoughts of hell, or poison them with hatred for infidels. We should not teach our sons to consider women their future property, or convince our daughters that they are property even now. And we must decline to tell our children that human history began with magic and will end with bloody magic—perhaps soon, in a glorious war between the righteous and the rest. One must be religious to fail the young so abysmally—to derange them with fear, bigotry, and superstition even as their minds are forming—and one cannot be a serious Christian, Muslim, or Jew without doing so in some measure.
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Side Notes on Sam Harris after reading "September 11"...
1) I wonder why Harris hasn't really delved into human mystical experience (Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, whatever) rather than the perils and evils of religious thinking? He'd see a lot more similarity than I think would be comfortable for him and his naturalism. Even the various mystics THEMSELVES acknowledge the deep similiarities. And we won't even talk about his non-talk of any process options...
2) Harris seems to me to be is a sophisticated "blithe nihilist" and unknowing "viviocentrist." If seriously pressed, he'd probably admit that there is no inherent or irrevocable ground for dignifying human persons (no inalienable rights type thing)..and that full-on nihilism (epistemological, moral, etc) is the inevitable outcome of a naturalistic perspective of our universe taken to it's furtherest conclusions. But he ain't gonna say that, unless really pressed.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 9/11/2011 8:46 AM (GMT -6) |   | Oh...and Harris is right that the human ego is nothing more than "a construct and a cognitive illusion". However, he doesn't understanding that the journey of spiritual development brings this potentiality for personhood into a full "hypostasis" when the ego becomes loving communication/communion with Uncreated Personhood. Essentially a human ego becomes "person" by becoming PRAYER.
But how could he understand that...
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The imago dei, as human spirit, implies a relationality at the core of human nature which issues in a freedom to relate or not to God. Yet that self-relationality, reflective in human form of the self-relationality inherent in the inner life of God, cannot maintain itself by itself. Even the relationality of two persons, male and female, cannot sustain it. The image disappears when it is separated from its original, and so, as we have said, dissipation is the inevitable outcome of the human spirit in a state of detachment. On the other hand, once restored to the proper place in relation to the Divine Spirit (a relationship of two self-relational realities), human freedom is tranformed into "the glorious liberty of the children of God" (Rom. 8:21)
James Loder The Knight's Move Page 48
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 9/11/2011 11:42:15 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 9/11/2011 8:57 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  BBBCanada Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 2763 | Posted 9/11/2011 2:29 PM (GMT -6) |   | |
OK…here is what Reitan says. First he says that we have two contrasting feelings of dependence and freedom.
Dependence is when you have a sense that something outside of you is affecting you.
Freedom is when you have a sense that you are doing something of your own volition.
In ordinary experience everything feels like something is either happening to you or you feel as if you are doing something. Reitan says that in Schleiermacher’s terms it is a contrast between “receptivity” and “activity.”
As an example of this Reitan uses the sky. It doesn’t feel as if I am inventing the blueness of the sky, but rather it feels as if something external is producing the experience in me. The “looking” (at the sky) feels as if it is you who is doing it but the blueness is something that comes from something external to one’s self. Reitan goes on to say that if we were to imagine a grassy hill, we wouldn’t for a minute believe its real because the feeling that accompanies such imagining is one of freedom and not dependence. And so the reason why we believe there ARE real hills out there is because so much of our experience is accompanied by dependence rather than feeling.
Reitan says that the reason he believes in freewill is because of the feeling of freedom. He says for example when he drags himself out of bed it doesn’t feel like anything is happening to him (the mechanistic result of physical laws regulating neural firings in his brain) but something he has freely chosen to do.
Even still Reitan says that Schleiermacher goes even further and says that there is an even more basic feeling of ABSOLUTE DEPENDENCE that BOTH freedom and dependence SHARE. (I’m personally thinking here something along the lines that of Greg’s freedom to live “compatibilistically tied/anchored to God.”)
Now, if everything is flavoured by both freedom and dependence, and both of those are flavoured by absolute dependence (with nothing to contrast it with) how would we get at this feeling that underlies every experience? Good question.
Well, Schleiermacher, believed that “underlying both is something analogous to what underlies those experiences that we think of as receptive. That is, all of our experience is accompanied by something like the feeling of dependence--except that it is a feeling of dependence UNACCOMPANIED BY ANY RECIPROCAL FREEDOM.
We are both receptive and active to everything in the empirical world right? However, “in relation to the world encountered with our senses, we NEVER have a feeling of ABSOLUTE freedom. What we experience and what we do is never wholly in our control because we are acting on a world that comes to us a given….In short, anything we can see or hear or feel is something over which we exert SOME control, and so will not be something upon which we depend absolutely. If there is such a thing, its not to be found in the empirical world.
This is the POINTER toward transcendence and what we call God. And that’s the thing. Schleiermacher thinks we do have a feeling of absolute dependence. Why he thinks this is because by pointing out our inability to have absolute freedom even when we are engaged in entirely inward activity such as the use of the imagination, we are not dependent on the PHYSICAL world but rather we are dependent on our own existence as a being that can act. That is, “we do not call ourselves and our power to choose into existence by our choices (absolute freedom). Instead, our existence is a precondition for any free activity at all. Likewise, it is a precondition for our capacity to be receptive."
And this is where the mystics start coming in the picture. Because when we start to focus on this FACT and turn our attention inward to the experience of it (which the mystics do) what we encounter is a feeling of dependence unaccompanied by any feeling of freedom. And it is this that points us beyond ourselves. I have to quote this next part in totality.
“It is ‘the consciousness that the whole of our spontaneous activity comes from a source outside of us’ (Schleiermacher) When we become truly conscious of it, it is an self-consciousness that Schleiermacher can only describe as the sense of being PURELY receptive, not even REMOTELY active in relation to SOMETHING.”
If one were to ask why we should trust this feeling, Reitan responds by saying that he believes in the external world because his sensory experience feels receptive. Freewill because his experience feels active. Why shouldn’t we believe in a transcendent reality beyond the empirical world, given that my experience, at bottom FEELS utterly dependent on such reality?
And this is why the mystics shouldn’t be overlooked. This flowering bud resides in all of us, and “our efforts to expand this “God-consciousness” can benefit from the teaching of those mystics who dwell in it more often and more completely than we--much as all of us can benefit from scientists who have honed their observational skills in the empirical realm.”
It is this “feeling of absolute dependence” which I thought that coincided nicely with what you were saying. If God is right here right now he is also right here right now in such a way that we are TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DEPENDENT on him…right here and right now.
By the way, Reitan points out how Harris has delved into Buddhist mystical experience but comes away contradicting himself by pointing to his attempt of trying to show how his experience basically proved his already held assumptions about God existence. I'd have to look that up again, but I thought this was so important to what you were saying.
Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine
Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 9/11/2011 2:42:57 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 9/11/2011 5:08 PM (GMT -6) |   | The Kabbalah angle is VERY straightforward...and representative...
Bitul "Self-nullification or Selflessness"
Bitul is the spiritual state associated with the inner experience of chochmah, whereby one's consciousness opens up to a continuous flow of Divine wisdom and new insight through one's nullifying his sense of autonomous and self-sustained being. Bitul is the experience of ayin, of being nothing within the omnipresent radiance of God's infinite light. In general, there are two identified levels of bitul:
Bitul b'metziut ("existential nullification" ) constitutes the absolute form of bitul whereby one loses all sense of independent existence. This is the state of bitul in the world of Atzilut, whose consciousness, permeated by the supernal level of chochmah (Abba mekanen b'Atzilut), is solely that of God's omnipresence.
Bitul hayesh ("nullification of [one's] somethingness" ) constitutes a lower form of bitul whereby one is consciously involved in the process of nullifying the outer layer of self (ego). This is accomplished by the concentrated effort to experience the continual recreation of all reality, including oneself, as "something from nothing." This impresses upon one's consciousness that there is no independent reality attached to one's sense of "somethingness."
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This is basically that "Logos-Vision" we'd been talking about before...where one perceives oneself and one's environment from the perspective of the Holy Spirit (including the "Creator Spirit" perspective). At this point, it becomes obvious that 1) "time and space are Grace"...meaning that 2) the universe is inherently and unchangably a radically dependent theophany of Divine Presence. This allows seeing all of Creation as "gift/sacrament of the present moment."
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 9/11/2011 5:22:09 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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