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One Love
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   Posted 12/23/2011 2:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It's the principle involved, Jeff. It doesn't matter that he's not going to win.

It's interesting that you don't see that.

Not a problem.  Everyone must be persuaded in their own minds, right?  ;-)

I'm still gonna call Walter Williams though. I want to get HIS response on this new details about Ron Paul. I want him to clearly spell out for me why I should over look Ron Paul's demonstrated ambivalence to these issues.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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Similitude
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   Posted 12/23/2011 2:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dwayne, God has said that what is required is based on what is given. No one can trump that.


 

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One Love
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   Posted 12/23/2011 2:49 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There is also such a thing as willed ignorance, too.

Basically not seeking to be required of more, because one is comfortable with the struggles they already have.

God knows that too.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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Similitude
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   Posted 12/23/2011 2:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Besides, D. I'm the one that has argued consistently that some KINDS of complicity ARE wrong. And you have consistently argued that some KINDS of complicity are NOT wrong. Thus, you have to argue particulars for this case. How do I know that any car repair shop has discriminated against my daughter-in-law because of racism? I'm not saying they haven't. But how do I know? Best I can tell, the average private shop is ruthless, and the major manufacturers are regulated enough to not be obvious even if their mechanics are racist.


 

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Similitude
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   Posted 12/23/2011 2:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OK. Lay it on me. I'm evil in what way? And how do you know?


 

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Similitude
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   Posted 12/23/2011 2:54 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Gotta get ready for my Christmas gathering with in-laws. I'll check back.


 

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Similitude
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   Posted 12/23/2011 3:43 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

 

D: Basically not seeking to be required of more, because one is comfortable with the struggles they already have.

J: Here's the way it works. God gives, then we are required of. He gives precisely enough such that His grace is sufficient. Paul asked for a thorn to be removed, but God said His grace was sufficient. Then, when we are faithful with what God had given us, we are strengthened by that action. Thus, we are ready for MORE. So then God gives us the additional knowledge/wisdom to go with that newly-acquired STRENGTH, because now we're strong enough for it. At no time does scripture say we are to just seek to be required of PER SE. We have to KNOW what it is we are to do with our sufficient grace/strength. That's what God has to give.

Now, if you know something I should know that will imply a requirement of me, then lay it on me.


 

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One Love
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   Posted 12/23/2011 3:44 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Enjoy your holiday time with the fam, bro! :-)

Jeff:
Thus, you have to argue particulars for this case. How do I know that any car repair shop has discriminated against my daughter-in-law because of racism? I'm not saying they haven't. But how do I know?

You DON'T know for certain. What you DO know is that they wouldn't do anything prejudicial or discriminatory, specifically based upon your biological makeup (ie, white male). But your daughter-in-law will NEVER know whether or not that may be the case. There is a potential COST to her that neither you nor your son will ever really incur personally in such a situation...and it's the oppressive systems in power are what make that so. It's good for this to be acknowledged. That's what I'm saying, Jeff.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 12/23/2011 3:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeff:
Now, if you know something I should know that will imply a requirement of me, then lay it on me.

Ok. If you are able (be lead. please don't cause any unnecessary drama on my account!)...ask your daughter-in-law the question about what she thinks about being a black woman getting services from a white male dominated society. Perhaps she can relay the experiences of others she knows inside or outside of her family as well. 

Even better...tell her about THIS conversation about Ron Paul, the allegations about his documents (all the documents are there for her to see), and his recent ambivalent activities...and ask her what she thinks about people who would knowingly support Paul with all that in mind. Who knows what you may hear...

Interestingly enough, maybe this conversation IS exactly the situation you've described. I dunno...

You've got some book ideas now, right?  reading


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/23/2011 2:53:03 PM (GMT-6)

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 12/23/2011 4:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I was writing up a response and then it disappeared as I was hitting the return button to skip a space. Anyhoo…what I was going to say briefly.

1. I don’t think you can be neutral about politics.

2. I think one can be complicit in “white politics” or “racial politicking” without knowing it. In other words, one group thinks, “Why wouldn’t they want that delivered that way?” really may not be what that group wants nor want it delivered that way.

3. Jeff said:

“No, I don't think my whiteness affects my politics. Libertarian government is as fair as it gets. That's why it has no chance of winning. ALL governments are evil -- even those in predominantly BLACK countries. Because they ABUSE power instead of seeking maximal justice.”

I think that is like saying that library systems are evil because they take on a life of their own and serve to exist for themselves rather than their patrons. If there is abuse of something then that means there is a point at which there is no abuse which means it is a good created thing. That’s the problem I have with Greg’s ideas on politics.

Let me say this. Injustice happens as in, “Shit happens.” It isn’t only the select few blacks or minorities where injustice takes place. This is why we should be concerned with a “justice for all.” Either way, there is a long, deep and complex history of racism in the U.S. and there have been ways which have been used to overcome it that are not necessarily the best ways for it to be overcome because those ways have produced other injustices. And in good ole principled pluralistic fashion, though it is not to say that governments should go soft on racism, racism must be opposed by many different means appropriate to and built on respect for the diversity of institutions and relationships all people have in our society. In other words, anti-discrimination efforts SHOULD be incorporated into the LARGER QUEST for PUBLIC JUSTICE in a complex, differentiated society. So for me the question goes deeper than racial issues.


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

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Similitude
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   Posted 12/23/2011 4:14 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: It's good for this to be acknowledged.

J: We get it. We just don't know how to turn it around given the systemic nature of it. Here's our comfort--EVERY man must bear his own load (Galatians). We're all dealing with all we can handle if we're walking faithfully with God. Our load is individual, but it's REAL.


 

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Similitude
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   Posted 12/23/2011 4:14 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
heading out. later!


 

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One Love
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   Posted 12/23/2011 4:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
A Massachusetts man convicted of burning down a black church out of anger over the election of President Barack Obama was sentenced to nearly 14 years in federal prison on Thursday.

According to prosecutors, in the early-morning hours after Obama's election on Nov. 4, 2008, 27-year-old Michael Jacques and several accomplices used gasoline to torch the Macedonia Church of God in Christ's nearly-completed $2.5 million worship center in Springfield, Mass. No parishioners or church staff were in the building at the time.

The timing of the fire triggered immediate concern from state and federal authorities that it was a racist response to the election of the country's first African American president. After an investigation lasting several months, police ultimately secured confessions from the participants indicating that the fire was racially motivated.

...

After being implicated in the arson by Benjamin Haskell, one of his accomplices, Jacques was brought in for questioning by the Massachusetts State Police and admitted his involvement in the crime after a six-hour interrogation. Before his trial in April, Jacques told a federal judge he was pressured into a false confession while suffering withdrawal from painkillers and nicotine. The judge ruled that the confession was admissible.

Haskell told police that Jacques "was angry that the country was going to have an African American president and that the blacks and Puerto Ricans would now have more rights than whites," according to court documents.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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Similitude
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   Posted 12/24/2011 12:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

 

D: In other words, anti-discrimination efforts SHOULD be incorporated into the LARGER QUEST for PUBLIC JUSTICE in a complex, differentiated society.

J: Racial discrimination IS a justice issue, though. In that sense, to seek justice necessarily includes seeking the elimination of racial discrimination. Unfortunately, like all kinds of discrimination, it can be very difficult to prove. Our justice system, by making it hard to prove people guilty, gives an advantage to those with power (economic, etc) as a side-effect. This is why policies that involve other kinds of injustices have been resorted to in an attempt to make SOME progress. But the sanction of these policies has been exploited by partisans as if they were actually just rather than admitting what they really are -- the best utilitarian effort government can come up with to address the systemic problem.
 
If government advocated the policies as a utilitarian attempt to attain a lesser of evils rather than justice itself, the polarization they tend to create would not be so extreme. But politicians tend to be exploitive for their own empowerment and/or enrichment. So they end up muddying the very epistemological waters that we use to adjudicate with. In short, I just can't do the utilitarian math to figure it out. Things have gotten so complex that the forces in play are too unpredictable to me for me to know how to determine whether Democrats or Republicans are worse for America in the long run.
 
All that seems obvious to me is that both mainstream parties are running us over the cliff. Which would succeed fastest if left to act unresisted? I would guess the Democrats, but I'm not even sure of that. This is because they, like Socialists/Communists, promote more-collectivist policies that tend towards the elimination of an economic middle-class (because they destroy the motivation of the middle-class). And I suspect that would result in a profound loss of liberty and personal security as well. But given the complexity of forces involved in the act of resistance (which is what is actually going to occur, after all), I have no idea which party would run us over the cliff the fastest.

So just because Greg is wrong about government per se, it is still true that human nature is what it is. And that's the sense in which Greg can be right about extant governments, but for the wrong reason. Systems TEND towards abuse to the extent that they have power TO abuse with impunity.


 

Post Edited (Similitude) : 12/24/2011 11:39:54 AM (GMT-6)

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