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 |  Asher Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2003 Total Posts : 477 | Posted 1/8/2012 11:26 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Has anyone else read William Hasker's "The Emergent Self"? | | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/8/2012 11:38 PM (GMT -6) |   | Haven't read it myself, Asher...but...
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In our next-to-last session at the Quincy Science and Theology conference, Dr. Bill Hasker (Emeritus Professor of Philosophy at Huntington University) presented a comprehensive argument for what he calls "the emergent self" (or "soul"). It was a summary of a book that he recent published with this same title.
Here's the problem Bill is trying to tackle. On the one hand, we all experience ourselves as having a mind that can originate ideas, make decisions, and freely move our physical bodies in various ways to accomplish various tasks. At the same time, we also all know that our mind is inextricably connected to our physical brains. In fact, through neuroscience we now have mapped very specific areas of the brain that are in charge of carrying out specific mental tasks. So the question is, How can our minds be free when they're inextricably tied to a brain that is not (for the physical brain operates according to the laws of physics)?
Throughout western history most people have embraced DUALISM, which views the mind/soul as totally different from physical reality. This view is problematic for a number of reasons, not least of which is that it can't really explain the inextricable connection between the mind and the brain. Rejecting this, many nueroscientists today embrace MATERIALISTIC MONISM which believes the mind/soul is nothing more than a shadowy by-product of the deterministic processes that characterize the brain. This view is also problematic for a number of reasons, not least of which is that it means our sense of freedom is a complete illusion. Indeed, in this view our experience of impacting our brains and bodies by what we think is just an illusion. Thought and choice always follows deterministic physical processes. It never impacts physical processes -- for there is no autonomous "it" to cause anything. (This is sometimes called Epi-phenomenologicalism.)
Against both of these views, Hasker argued that we should view the "mind" as an "emergent property" out of brain processes. As I noted in a previous post, "emergence" is when a physical dynamic system is organized in such a way that the system as a whole acquires a property that none of the constituent parts of the system have. We find it all over the place in nature. Applied to the mind-brain problem, Hasker argues that while every aspect of the brain is physical and determined, it gives rise to mind as an "emergent property," and this property is neither physical nor determined. Indeed, once it emerges, the mind can be the originator of activity, impacting both the physical brain and therefore the body with its mental ideas and choices. So, Bill's view accounts for both the inseparability of the mind from the brain but also the relative independence of the mind and the brain.
I personally think something like Hasker's view must be correct. At the same time, I don't see that it really explains anything. Bill's theory is really just a description of what we experience and a way of saying, "this is true." He doesn't explain how deterministic physical processes (the brain) can give rise to a self-determining non-physical mind/soul. He simply observes that it does.
So here's what I'm wondering. Nobody knows what "matter" is, apart from what matter does. Nor does anyone know what "mind" is, apart from what mind does. And yet, it seems like we consistently forget this fact. We act like we know a great deal about both matter and mind -- enough so that we're very sure they're radically different from each other. This is what gives rise to the mind-body problem that dualism, materialistic monism and the emergent self theory each try to solve.
But what if we didn't start with the assumption that mind and matter are fundamentally different things? It's true that what we call "matter" behaves according to the laws of physics while what we call "mind" seems to be able to transcend these. But what if this difference was merely a matter of degree, rather than a difference of kind? What if the matter that looks like it slavishly obeys the laws of physics is just (what Hartshorne called) "low grade mind?" In other words, what if all material things are in their essence "mind-like," however low-level this mind-quality might be (this is the pan-psychism I referred to in an earlier posts)?
If we think this way, then there really is no mind-brain problem to solve. And it makes Bill Hasker's emergent self theory more compelling, I think. For while it's very hard to see how a free mind/soul could emerge out of brain parts that are themselves completely devoid of mind and freedom, there is no problem seeing how a high-level free mind could emerge out of brain parts that are each low-level mind and exercise low-level freedom.
Just a thought.
Blessings, Greg
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 1/8/2012 10:50:18 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/8/2012 11:45 PM (GMT -6) |   | Oh, and if you recall, Amit Goswami says pretty much the same thing as Hasker/Greg does. Meaning that the self EMERGES from the relationality of the strange loop of the immaterial and the material (brain).
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 1/8/2012 10:49:33 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/9/2012 1:22 AM (GMT -6) |   | Reposting remixed...
I believe that the following things are involved in a human being living out their "eschatological essence":
1.Human immaterial aspect, power of "I" (A)
2.Human material aspect, brain (B)
3.Human ego functioning (F) from bi-polar assymetrical relational unity of (A) and (B)
4.Human personality amalgamation process (P) from (F)
If this is not disagreeable, what is problematic with saying that (A) is a singular non-local reality that is participated in uniquely by all (B)s? This is, in fact, pretty much what I've been trying to say.
Seriously.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 1/9/2012 12:30:54 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/9/2012 1:42 AM (GMT -6) |   | Why not? Heh...
All moons in the solar system participate uniquely in the singular source of sunlight. Moonlight is NOT sunlight, but it's existence is immediately dependent upon sunlight.
Let Sunlight = Singular immaterial, non-local, "I-making" reality (A)
Let Moon = Brain in a human body (B)
Let Moonlight = Human ego functioning (F) from bi-polar assymetrical relational unity of (A) and (B)
Let Lunar Phases = Human personality amalgamation processes (P) from (F)

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/9/2012 4:15 PM (GMT -6) |   | Thanks for the Hasker suggestion, Asher. So, bro, what do you think? Does what I'm saying make any sense to you?
The Claim: The "I" using the functions of the mind is NOT to be completely identified with a particular, historically-held personality amalgam allowable by said mental funtions. The power of the "I" (the locus of human free will) is NOT the currently-used personality amalgam OR particular neural pathways in the brain, but is the immaterial, non-local reality that transcends, yet finds embodiment via bi-polar assymmetrical relational union with the brain/body, where self-referential "soul making" occurs via unique hypostatic ego activity personality amalgamation processes. To take Tom's language, the true self in Christ cannot merely be simplistically identified with with any particular socialized ego-construct. At the same time, the "fully realized" human self is an irreducible relationality between the incorporeal, non-local "I-making" reality and the corporeal, local reality of the human brain/body.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 1/9/2012 3:30:20 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/9/2012 8:29 PM (GMT -6) |   | Relation between being a contemplative and being a theologian
In the Eastern Christian traditions, theoria is the most critical component needed for a person to be considered a theologian; however it is not necessary for one's salvation.[88] Theoria is being with God,[88] in Eastern Christianity, the one thing that mankind truly desires the most,[89] that which is infinite (called apophatic or transcendent) and also personal and real (called cataphatic or immanent). God is ever-new, never-ending love, happiness, joy and bliss as is glory to glory. An experience of God is necessary to the spiritual and mental health of every created thing, including human beings.[90][91] Eastern theologian Andrew Louth has said, the purpose of theology as a science is to prepare for contemplation,[92] rather than theology being the purpose of contemplation. As Vladimir Lossky stated the Mysticism of the Eastern church is church dogma per excellence.
Hans Urs von Balthasar wrote that "prayer cannot be reduced to the level of a means to improved understanding".[93] Roman Catholic monk Thomas Merton wrote that the illumination of contemplation is prized much higher than the intellectual capacity of a theologian, with contemplation being "the normal perfection of theology".[94] and contemplation seen as beyond speculative theology.[95] According to Thomas Aquinas the latter can only focus on what God is not, for instance considering God a spirit by removing from our conception anything pertaining to the body, while the mystic, instead of trying to comprehend what God is, is able to intuit it.[96] However, in the West contemplatives are not considered to be necessarily well-equipped for giving a rational exposition and explanation of Christian doctrine, which is the humbler task of the theologian: the experience of contemplatives is often of a more lofty level, beyond the power of human words to express,[97] so that "they have had to resort to metaphors, similes, and symbols to convey the inexpressible."[98]
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Asher Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2003 Total Posts : 477 | Posted 1/15/2012 8:48 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hey Dwayne,
The Claim: The "I" using the functions of the mind is NOT to be completely identified with a particular, historically-held personality amalgam allowable by said mental funtions. The power of the "I" (the locus of human free will) is NOT the currently-used personality amalgam OR particular neural pathways in the brain, but is the immaterial, non-local reality that transcends, yet finds embodiment via bi-polar assymmetrical relational union with the brain/body, where self-referential "soul making" occurs via unique hypostatic ego activity personality amalgamation processes. To take Tom's language, the true self in Christ cannot merely be simplistically identified with with any particular socialized ego-construct. At the same time, the "fully realized" human self is an irreducible relationality between the incorporeal, non-local "I-making" reality and the corporeal, local reality of the human brain/body.
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Dwayne: The "I" using the functions of the mind is NOT to be completely identified with a particular, historically-held personality amalgam allowable by said mental funtions
I agree with this statement. But there are then questions and stipulations. What are the functions and senses of the "I" if severed from a particular, historically-held personality amalgam? Or must the "I", though not reducible to an amalgam, always be expressed via an amalgam?
Dwayne: The power of the "I" (the locus of human free will)
Maybe you have partially answered my question above. Is the "I" the locus of any other functions, or is the I integrally tied up with free-will alone?
Dwayne: The power of the "I" (the locus of human free will) is NOT the currently-used personality amalgam
Again I wonder, can the "I" function without any amalgam? And if so, what exactly does the free-will have to choose from among when severed from any amalgam?
Dwayne: but is the immaterial, non-local reality that transcends, yet finds embodiment via bi-polar assymmetrical relational union with the brain/body
If my "I" is immaterial and non-local, and your "I" is immaterial and non-local...what is the difference between them? And don't have an "Aha! Now your getting it!" moment with me (don't know for sure that's where your headed, but just wanted to cut it off before it even gets out of the gate)...because...my free-will and your free-will are definitely different. Grounded in the same source? No problems with that, how could it be otherwise. Have the same telos? No problems there either. Integrally the same? Nope. Maybe that's what you mean, and I'm just too suspicious of the mystical, and if so, I'm sorry. And it's not like I doubt the mystical, as you know, I've had mystical experiences; but they did not lead me to think that separation is an illusion and everything is just one. When I was dancing with the Trinity, I was appropriately separate, and appropriately united. And neither thing (the separation or the unity) was an illusion.
Dwayne: where self-referential "soul making" occurs via unique hypostatic ego activity personality amalgamation processes.
Yep, I'm with ya here. Would you say that the telos of the "I" is to do exactly this? | | Back to Top | | |
  |  Asher Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2003 Total Posts : 477 | Posted 1/16/2012 3:55 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Yeah, thanks Corey! Great job! I appreciate and love you. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/20/2012 9:37 AM (GMT -6) |   | Thanks again, Corey!
Allllllllllllrighty, then. Where were we? Oh yeah...
Dwayne: The "I" using the functions of the mind is NOT to be completely identified with a particular, historically-held personality amalgam allowable by said mental funtions
Asher: I agree with this statement. But there are then questions and stipulations. What are the functions and senses of the "I" if severed from a particular, historically-held personality amalgam? Or must the "I", though not reducible to an amalgam, always be expressed via an amalgam?
and...
Dwayne: The power of the "I" (the locus of human free will) is NOT the currently-used personality amalgam
Asher: Again I wonder, can the "I" function without any amalgam? And if so, what exactly does the free-will have to choose from among when severed from any amalgam?
and...
Dwayne: where self-referential "soul making" occurs via unique hypostatic ego activity personality amalgamation processes.
Yep, I'm with ya here. Would you say that the telos of the "I" is to do exactly this?
Short answer: Yes, to the bolded question above.
Longer answer: For me, humanity is truly "microcosm and mediator" like Eastern Orthodoxy says. That means that humanity is an ESSENTIAL unity between created immaterial reality and created material reality. Humanity is NOT essentially singular uncreated or created immaterial conciousness/reality briefly expressing itself in the "play/lila" of created material reality for diversity. Humanity is a bi-polar asymmetrical relational union between created incorporeal reality and created corporeal reality...and the full expression of humanity can only occur as such through exercise of freedom/choice and openness to oneself and one's environment in that exercise. As St. Ireneus has said "The glory of God is man fully alive." I take that to mean living in full, natural communion with God, oneself and one's environment (including others). That cannot be done without some type of "I" energy expressing itself via SOME type of amalgam for the sake of self-experience and "world composition." If you saw some of the Enneagram Institute pages I'd posted about, you'll see they say the same thing: Personality is NECESSARY for the full human expression of the Essential/Spiritual.
To make this very very clear:
I am NOT saying that all human beings are ESSENTIALLY "fractals" of one personal being who are simply amnesiatic to their essential unity as being ONE incorporeal personal being who simply fooled itself into thinking it was truly MANY incorporeal and corporeal beings. (Though I do believe that, in Christ, we are each "little Christs" who are "cells" in the ONE big Body of Christ by the ONE Holy Spirit of God that indwells all and each...and there will be a time when Christ's Body--and Christ's Presence in His Body--is coterminous with the entire human population then existent! Through humanity, all Creation will be "hypostasized" into the Body of Christ actually! )
I AM saying that each human being is a unique, irreplacable bi-polar assymmetrical unity between a singular, universal "field" (for lack of a better term) of subjectivity/will and an individual, well-functioning human brain in a human body. I'm saying that the empowering force of our "I-ness", whether in consciousness or willing-to-be, lies not within any neurological pathways in our brains or any particular personality amalgams allows by those pathways...but within and through that INCORPOREAL, UNIVERSAL reality empowering an irreducibly unique bi-polar asymmetrical relational unity with a PARTICULAR human brain/body unto the EMERGENCE of a soul via unique hypostatic ego activity personality amalgamation processes. Each human person has the "functions of mind" (like unto manas, chitta, ahamkara, buddhi/nous) that work around the singular, universal "field" of "Selfness". This universal "field" of subjectivity/"selfness" that I'm talking about COULD be considered like unto the Purusha idea in Hinduism or the Adam Kadmon idea in Kabbalah/Judaism.
Whew. I think that did it.
I hope.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 1/20/2012 9:09:24 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/20/2012 10:00 AM (GMT -6) |   | | The implications:
1) Any particular human personality amalgam is NOT human noetic reality. "Dwayne Polk" is NOT identical to my noetic, incorporeal aspect of my full human reality. My current "Dwayne Polk-ness" is not ESSENTIAL to my human "soul", however we conceive that. One unlikely slip in a bathroom can show that.
2) Any particular human personality amalgam CANNOT be the locus of attention selection and choice. My current "Dwayne Polk-ness" is not ESSENTIAL to my unique human hypostasis exercising attention selection and choice. Again, one bathroom slip away...
3) The new being in Christ (a Holy Spirit/human spirit reality) is NOT any particular human personality amalgam, however self-referentially "aware" the fallen personality amalgam may be. This is exactly what Merton, Loder and others were saying when they would say that the egocentric "I" that is only self-reflective and works conventionally in the world is NOT the true theocentric, contemplative "I" that self-experiences itself in unmediated union with Divine Presence within and without itself. The human being in such a state truly IS a "new creation."
4) Multiple problems happen when we truncate our spiritual natures by completely identifying with the a particular, historically-held personality amalgam and it's memory of self-reflective self-experience and habitual patterns of memory and imagination usage, thereby locking ourselves into individuality and "biological hypostasis."
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 1/20/2012 9:08:42 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/20/2012 3:53 PM (GMT -6) |   | From "The Composition of the Human Being" chapter of Evdokimov's "Woman and the Salvation of the World"...
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Every human being possesses a rudimentary person, a psychological center of integration [OL's Note: Loder's ego periphery] which makes the whole gravitate around the metaphysical Self, and constitutes self-awareness; this is the prosopon, a natural element of the human substance. By contrast, on a deeper level, while all are invited, few of the chosen succeed in becoming a hypostasis. The hypostasis is this advanced stage of the imago Dei (image of God), the organ and place of communion with God which confirms our theandric structure in the image of Christ. In the age to come, "we shall be like him," as St. John says (1 Jn 3:2)
This theandrism is already contained potentially in the imago Dei. The degree to which the image is actualized determines the germination and maturing of the prosopon into hypostasis--the transition from "natural being" into "Christ-being"--by following the great sacramental initiation in which the human structure is recarved entirely, like a statue, according to the model of Christ, our Archetype. In Christ, it is God who united Himself with the human; this communion is the highest and most unique because the place of communion is the Word; and it is the divine Hypostasis that enhypostasizes the particular human nature. In every human being formed "in the image of Christ," the place of communion is the human person which receives its theandric structure in Christ (en Christo), and becomes a hypostasis. In the human being, it is within the self-awareness that the divine awareness occurs, and theandrism is achieved: "We will come to him and make our home with him" (Jn 14:23). "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me" (Gal 2:20). St. Paul's pastoral task aspires to this, that "Christ be formed in you!" (Gal 4:19).
"Man," St. Basil said, "is a creature who has received the command to become god," to become a deified hypostasis. This concept is clarified with great precision in St. Maximus the Confessor. In order to become a hypostasis, the person (prosopon) is called upon "to unify, though love, created nature with uncreated nature (...) by the acquisition of grace (kata ten exin tes charitos)." As we can see, the human being, by grace, unites in his created hypostasis the divine and the human in the image of Christ, and thust becomes a created god, God according to grace. The hypostasis is precisely specified; it is the person of the deified human being. In Christ, deified human nature is enhypostasized in a divine Person. In the deified human being, the created person sees how, in this divinization, his nature is united with the divine deifying energy. Thus, the hypostasis is the personal, unique, incomparable mode of the theandric existence of every Christian. Here is where the radical, mystical, and trans-essential demarcation between the old man and the new creation is to be made. But at this point, any phenomenological analysis changes into trans-phenomenology to reach a state which transcends the primary human state: holiness. The "individual" is a sociological and biological category [OL's Note: Zizy's "biological hypostasis" ] that belongs entirely to nature. The individual is part of the natural whole, and is separate from it either by a contrast, by a demarcation, or through isolation. In the natural state, the prosopon merges with the individual; it is but a "potentiality" of the person. But once actualized, it demands maturing into a hypostasis, which is a spiritual category. It is not a part, but contains the whole, which explains its ability to be enhypostasized.
The individual to whom one ascribes "a strong personality" merely presents a particular mixture of natural elements, with certain prominent traits. Despite these salient traits, such a person ultimately creates only the impression of deja vu. A saint is striking because of a countenance unique in the world, because of a light that is always ultimately person. He or she has never seen before.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
  |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 1/21/2012 6:03 PM (GMT -6) |   | Asher: I wonder, can the "I" function without any amalgam?
Tom: It can't be fulfilled without an embodied amalgam even though the specific characteristics of the amalgam are contingent and could be otherwise (blank, white, male, female, tall, short, etc.), it must be SOME arrangment of contingent characteristics fully and freely surrendered to God and celebrated as such. So the fully realized human being is on other side of this surrender and is this celebration. That's why I'm so skeptical of all the hype and celebration of an experience in which all the contingent attributes of embodiment are denied. How's that a fulfillment of a logos for human being which finds its end IN embodiment?
T "The aesthetic value the world has for God is in expressing, not constituting, the aesthetic value God eternally finds within Godself." Greg Boyd | | Back to Top | | |
   |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/22/2012 6:13 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tom: I have a third view then, because I don't see the human "I" as immaterial and non-local. I view the human, created "I" as the fully realized human being, and that means viewing the "I" as a concrete and embodied. A fully realized human "I" is a fully realized 'logos' (divine subjective aim) for a human being. And God's logoi for human being are ONLY fulfilled, "fully" realized, as embodied.
In so far as a person cannot say "I", "Ich", "Je" (using human language) without using a human brain, you are just saying that humanity truly IS a unity of the immaterial and material. We don't disagree there.
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Tom: Is there conscious experience for disembodied human beings? I'm guessing so, but whatever it is, it can't be the fulfillment of the human logos.
No one ever said that it was, man. All I've BEEN saying is that the immaterial aspect of the human being can be non-local...rather than believing that the immaterial aspect is 1) generated only by the brain's activity, thus localizable to the brain that way (Hasker, Greg) and 2) localizable to the brain ONLY, not necessarily the entire body (ie the feasibility of brain transfer).
Tom asked elsewhere what's my deal with this. It's about trying to look at the idea of human noetic reality in LIGHT of what we know about the human brain, ego activity, and personality amalgamation formation. We know that the source of our noetic reality CANNOT be directly identifiable with any particular personality a person has; personality emergence is centralized in the brain. So...if Jeff and I were able to switch brains, would we then say that my "soul" were now in Jeff's (former) body...and that Jeff's "soul" was in my (former) body? If so, then that means that the immaterial aspect of me and Jeff is NOT essentially linked to the bodies that we are born with...just our brains. That seems problematic. Moreover, let's say that we localize the immaterial aspect of humanity to the brain...and let's say that a human being is completely incinerated. In such a case, we'd have to say that some (possibly) dimensionless, extensionless "point" of created consciousness/will that was linked to the brain is just there, "floating" in space where the brain USED to be.
But I ask the question: Is a dimensionless, extensionless "point" of created consciousness/will ABSENT of any personality amalgamation what most Christians think about when they talk about their spiritual selves? I think not. I think we see our spiritual selves like in the movies "Frighteners" or "Ghost." We basically posited our embodied human selves in IMMATERIAL form. That's historically how we've seen angels too, I guess...
My thing is that we cannot hold our proverbial heads in the sand about this, given what we know about how the human brain works. The reality of split-brain reasearch and retrograde amnesia of Scott Bolzan won't go away just because we want to preserve some idea of what the human soul it.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 1/22/2012 5:20:19 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/22/2012 6:21 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tom: Is there conscious experience for disembodied human beings? I'm guessing so...
What are the context and terms of that experience, given what we know about what is NOT in the disembodied human experience (ie any personality amalgam or any information from the five senses)?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 1/22/2012 10:59:30 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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