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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 2/23/2004 2:40 PM (GMT -6) |   | | I was listening to M&M's song (cannot spell his name) "Cleanin' Out my Closet," the other day and it got me to thinking that I make ice cream into an idol. Late at night, kids in bed, me and the wife sitting' on the couch, watching CSI. Oh yeah, I try not to bow down, but when that first spoonful of Ben and Jerry's my tongue. Oh yeah! That be a taste of heaven! | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/24/2004 1:43 AM (GMT -6) | | borg: Christ is not man, Christ is not God; He is God-man...
Tom: THen say Christ is not MERELY human and not MERELY divine. As far as the rules of language go, "Christ is not man" and "Christ is the God-man" are contradictory. Jesus is human. He's just not MERELY human.
borg: ...and we cannot portray the God side on a movie screen, therefore we have already made Christ less glorious. Does this make sense?
Tom: No it doesn't. The God-side cannot be communicated on a movie screen but it can be communicated in a book? By your logic, borg, illiterate people are by definition cutt off from EVER understanding Christ as both human and divine. If they can't read the BOOK, how are they to understand Jesus as God incarnate? Somebody read it to them? What if they're deaf also? Brail? What if they don't read brail? Come on, a movie wouldn't do?
I've shown the "Jesus" film dubbed into Arabic all over Lebanon to Muslims who would NEVER read the printed page. How was it that some became convinced through the SCREEN (as opposed to the printed PAGE) that Jesus was God come to us?
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/24/2004 2:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika: I know one lady who was taking the movie through Lebanon back in the 80s and her party was stopped at a Syrian roadblock in the Bakaa valley. The soldiers discovered the film and wanted to watch it so they showed it to them. Later she learned that the post had been destroyed by bombs hours after they had left.
Tom: Too coincidental (spelling?)! I know the event, where it happened, and the team members. I was showing it that same night in another village. Can you remember the lady's name?
borg, bro, dude, brother, I don't know what to say. Find a new worldview or something. Open up. Loosen up. Relax a bit on the idolatry rhetoric man. It's OK. God loves the illiterate too.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/24/2004 3:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika: Operation Mobilization
Tom: Too weird. I'm an Ex-OMer myself. Yup. Small world.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 2/24/2004 4:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Borg,
I appreciate your heart for the written Word of God. I can appreciate your concern that people make an idol of this movie or any other movie about Christ. Consider this, however, the bible was inspired by God but written by people. Perhaps this movie was also inspired by the Spirit and written by Mel Gibson.
I have to say that whatever is for us is not against us. If this movie brings some people closer to God or brings about a revival that will bring many to Christ then I say all power and blessing be with it!
Hold tight to Christ but not to the law. Allow the Spirit to flow wherever is needed. If having a movie will plant seeds then why would we think it evil? | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 2/24/2004 9:00 AM (GMT -6) | | selah, yes I do live in Minnesota. I live in St. Paul, actually to get technical, Arden Hills. Why do you want to meet?
Tom your post was interesting. But if someone is blind, why would they see the movie anyway? And "The God-side cannot be communicated on a movie screen but it can be communicated in a book?" I guess that's why we should be thankful that it's not merely a "book" huh? But the Living, inspiring, sharpened, very Word of God. How will the illiterate hear? That's why we should be all the more eager to preach to them from the Word. I'm not saying that the movie cannot be a tool, but we need to be careful with it. And I fail to see how that is a contradictory statement, "God-man". Doesn't the very thought of the trinity contrive some sort of "contradiction"? Why wouldn't they read the printed page? it's not our job to save people, but to share the Gospel and let God do the rest, and the purest way to share the Gospel is through the Word of God only found in the Bible. "borg, bro, dude, brother, I don't know what to say. Find a new worldview or something. Open up. Loosen up. Relax a bit on the idolatry rhetoric man. It's OK. God loves the illiterate too." I'm not denying that God doesn't love the illiterate. but let's teach them to read so they can read the Bible huh? and to "loosen" up, in the words of Martin Luther, until my conscience confirms it and you prove to me through the Holy Writ, here I stand I can do no other so help me God!
quest thank you. But I do have a tough time saying that this movie is inspired like the Gospels were inspired. That leaves me with the daunting feeling that God had not completed His revealing of Christ and Christ's work through the Gospels, and that goes against Scripture. As far as leading people further to Christ, I am still plagued with the thought that this movie should not help in a form of worship. I know you disagree, and that's fine. But I will not allow this movie to aid in my worship of God, because it is no better than the analogy of the Matrix.
Laika, if i were to take your statement about me not having fun, and I asked if you were going to see this movie for pure entertainment reasons, 1) that's just wrong to see such violence and horrible crimes as entertainment, 2) I would actually appreciate that response more so than someone saying they were going to see it to "draw closer to God" and to "get back on track." What is the point in seeing this movie to the Christian?????????? Leave the non-Xtians out, i want to know reasonings for Christians seeing this film.
Blessings to all,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 2/24/2004 9:31 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
What is the point in seeing this movie to the Christian?????????? Leave the non-Xtians out, i want to know reasonings for Christians seeing this film.
Let me scratch my head… oh I got it. How about so that I have a clue what I’m talking about when ever I want to share my opinions of the movie.
Blessings to U, Mark..that would be mark of an un-educated person.
P.S. Borg, Sorry for being sarcastic, listen I don’t live far from St. Paul. I will meet you at a theater of your choice (my treat) we can watch the movie and afterwards talk about it all you like.
I have seen the trailer; I would recommend bringing a lot of tissue.
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 2/24/2004 9:46 AM (GMT -6) | | | Tom: once again, you the MAN! Preach it! Why would a Christian see it? I don't know...why would a Christian read more than one translation of the Bible, or read a wonderful piece of fiction, or watch a beautiful sunset. Perhaps the expanding of their horizon? If you have to ASK such a question, the answer is wasted on you anyway! | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 2/24/2004 10:22 AM (GMT -6) | | feelinahole, I wouldn't mind if you would share your arguments with me, but perhaps in a way that doesn't discredit your own arguments. Comments such as the above don't bother me, as in make me mad, as much as it bothers me that some feel the need to express their opinions in such a "child-like" manner as to not prove their point at all. This discussion board is designed to encourage growth, challenge one another, and to love one another. But i sense that the Holy Spirit has left mine and your discussions towards one another, and therefore I will cease to reply to any comments that you post from now on.
Tigress, thanks for the post. I don't know if I agree with childrens books. they dont' portray the Gospel in a correct way. when i saw the veggie tales, the one with David and Bathsheeba, they butchered the story, as well as the one with Esther in it. Other childrens stories seem to make Christ look like a happy go lucky, flakey like Savior. If we show these to kids, we need to let them know that this isn't truth, and we need to draw more from the Bible than from children's books. we are to believe that much of what Christ spoke throughout the Gospels was to children as well, for they were often times within the vast crowds. But I cannot say that all children's books are horrible, because I grew up on them and so did many other "better" Christians than myself.
Blessings,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/24/2004 10:29 AM (GMT -6) | | borg: …if someone is blind, why would they see the movie anyway?
Tom: I didn't suggest blind people ought to see it You’re not making sense borg. If someone was illiterate, I wouldn’t give them a Bible. If they were blind I wouldn’t have ‘em watch a movie.
borg: And "The God-side cannot be communicated on a movie screen but it can be communicated in a book?" I guess that's why we should be thankful that it's not merely a "book" huh?...
Tom: Now you’re talkin!
borg: But the Living, inspiring, sharpened, very Word of God. How will the illiterate hear? That's why we should be all the more eager to preach to them from the Word.
Tom: And a movie DOESN’T do that? Look, I'm not suggesting that DVD's supplant the Bible in the Church's life. It's the MESSAGE, borg, that's inspired. If it were 100% word for word literalness that the power of the message required, you wouldn't have a Word of God. Which Greek manuscript would be your Word of God? There are only over 5,000 NT Mss (no two of them identical). It's a M-E-S-S-A-G-E that changes peoples' lives. If a movie tells the story faithfully and is true to the facts AS SCRIPTURE TELLS THEM, then it's the same message and carries the same potent life-giving Word of God.
borg: I'm not saying that the movie cannot be a tool, but we need to be careful with it.
Tom: No more or less careful than we are when we share the gospel or preach. So I really don’t see you’re point.
borg: And I fail to see how that is a contradictory statement, "God-man".
Tom: I didn’t say “God-man” was contradictory. I said that saying “Jesus is not man” contradicts “Jesus is the God-man.” And it does. If “Jesus is not man” is, as you claim, true, then Jesus is not human AT ALL. And if Jesus is not human AT ALL, he can’t be the divine AND human.
borg: Doesn't the very thought of the trinity contrive some sort of "contradiction"?
Tom: Not to me, no.
borg: Why wouldn't they read the printed page?
Tom: Who? Illiterate people? Because they're illiterate. Oh, Muslims? Maybe because Christian Crusaders slaughtered them in the name of Christ? Maybe because Madonna wears a big Cross around her neck? Maybe because Christian militia waged a civil war against them for 15 years here in Lebanon? I can think of a lot of reasons why Muslims wouldn’t want to pick up a Bible and read it. Maybe because their family will persecute, beat, or ostracize them for even possessing a Bible? But a movie? Hey, EVERYBODY goes to the movies in Lebanon. No problem. Why don’t you just rejoice over that and stop worrying about idolatry?
borg: It's not our job to save people, but to share the Gospel and let God do the rest, and the purest way to share the Gospel is through the Word of God only found in the Bible.
Tom: Tell me borg, which language? Greek? Hebrew? Which Greek text? Which Hebrew text? And translating the Bible from Hebrew or Greek into, say, English keeps the Gospel unstained by interpretation whereas acting the text out on a screen is dangerous?
borg: I'm not denying that God doesn't love the illiterate...
Tom: You ought to deny that God doesn't love the illiterate. God does love the illiterate.
borg: ..but let's teach them to read so they can read the Bible huh?
Tom: Giving people the Scriptures in a language they can understand is what I spend most of my time doing. But for those who can't read it, or who can read but don't have the Scriptures in their language, can you stop coming down so pious on people who use every other means possible to communicate the Gospel?
borg: …and to "loosen" up, in the words of Martin Luther, until my conscience confirms it and you prove to me through the Holy Writ, here I stand I can do no other so help me God!
Tom: Stand right there and don’t move.
borg: I will not allow this movie to aid in my worship of God, because it is no better than the analogy of the Matrix.
Tom: By all means, don’t do what inhibits your ability to worship.
Tom
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/24/2004 10:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
feelinahole: Why would a Christian see it? I don't know...why would a Christian read more than one translation of the Bible, or read a wonderful piece of fiction, or watch a beautiful sunset. Perhaps the expanding of their horizon? If you have to ASK such a question, the answer is wasted on you anyway!
Tigress: PEOPLE!  Stop saying hurtful things and letting this petty issue be a division between us, and start respecting your siblings in Christ and stand in unity about your love of Jesus! This rude bickering is exactly what Satan wants us to do when a movie like this has so much potential for leading the lost to Christ!
Tigress-
Concern for civility is fine. But I have to say that feelinahole essentially makes a good point. I have to admit that I find borg's position rather rediculous. I keep wanting to believe borg's just pulling our leg, but sadly he's not. I respect his right to hold to his convictions and I don't doubt he holds them sincerely. This makes his position all the more unfortunate. I've been around translation issues too many years and seen the power of various mediums to communicate the Gospel too powerfully too give borg the time of day on this stuff.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/24/2004 11:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Tigress: We must always show compassion and tolerance towards people who struggle with any issue.
Tom: Borg, are you struggling with an issue here? What's your struggle? I didn't notice any struggle and don't remember you're expressing a desire to work through something you weren't sure about. Correct me if I'm wrong, Tigress, but borg seems not to be struggling at all. He appears to be very confident (as confident as Martin Luther on trial). He knows he's right and is sure Gibson's movie will make idolaters out people.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 2/24/2004 11:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quest thank you. But I do have a tough time saying that this movie is inspired like the Gospels were inspired. That leaves me with the daunting feeling that God had not completed His revealing of Christ and Christ's work through the Gospels, and that goes against Scripture. As far as leading people further to Christ, I am still plagued with the thought that this movie should not help in a form of worship. I know you disagree, and that's fine. But I will not allow this movie to aid in my worship of God, because it is no better than the analogy of the Matrix.
Borg, I absolutely respect your position on this. I am sorry for correlating the movie with the bible but my point was that God works through his creation and created beings. I believe God is working through us today just as in biblical times -- that was my point.
Please NO ONE worship any movie, book, idol! Worship ONLY Christ. If you get touched by getting a glimpse of what Christ's death must have been like then after the movie spend time on your knees weeping to Christ with a thankful heart for what he did for YOU.
God bless you, Borg! | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/24/2004 11:19 AM (GMT -6) | | borg: But I do have a tough time saying that this movie is inspired like the Gospels were inspired.
Tom: I would have more than a tough time agreeing that any movie or book is inspired "like" the Gospels are inspired. That's not the issue.
Quest: I absolutely respect your position on this.
Tom: What do you respect about it? I'd really like to know.
Quest: I am sorry for correlating the movie with the bible...
Tom: If you suggested that Gibson is as inspired as was Matthew or Luke, then be sorry. But there's no apology to be made for drawing a "correlation" between the movie and the Bible. THe correlation can't be denied. The movie is based on and about the gospel story. How can you make a movie based on the passion of Jesus in the gospels and NOT "correlate" the movie TO the gospels?
Are we awake?
Quest: Please NO ONE worship any movie, book, idol! Worship ONLY Christ.
Tom: Don't worry Quest. Nobody is gonna worship the film. For crying out loud. Let's get real!
Quest: If you get touched by getting a glimpse of what Christ's death must have been like then after the movie spend time on your knees weeping to Christ with a thankful heart for what he did for YOU.
Tom: I'd like to hear borg tell us if he agrees that what you're describing, Quest, is even possible. Does he agree that a person can watch this movie and end up on her knees worshiping God?
Borg?
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 2/24/2004 11:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
Tigress: We must always show compassion and tolerance towards people who struggle with any issue.
Tom: Borg, are you struggling with an issue here? What's your struggle? I didn't notice any struggle and don't remember you're expressing a desire to work through something you weren't sure about. Correct me if I'm wrong, Tigress, but borg seems not to be struggling at all. He appears to be very confident (as confident as Martin Luther on trial). He knows he's right and is sure Gibson's movie will make idolaters out people.
Tom
Tom,
Well, here's the first post Borg wrote after the one he posted with the Bible verses on it:
"Perhaps "The Passion of the Christ" isn't a movie that evangelicals should flock to and idolize as the newest, greatest, tool for evangelism. Perhaps we are sinning by going to this movie. Perhaps we dishonoring God. Perhaps we are trading in the incorruptible glory of Jesus Almighty on the cross, for a weak, graven, sinful, prideful, corruptilbe image of a mere actor on a screen. Perhaps God hates this film, for it lessens His glory, and inaccurately portrays Christ dead and risen. Perhaps...
Borg"
To me, it seemed like he was still questioning his thoughts about this. I tend to express my thoughts this way too sometimes - saying definitively that I believe them, but yet still sort of asking others to prove me wrong so I can be sure. It's not the most effective way to ask a question about something we have doubts about, but some of us do pose them in this way. It's like how people always say to legalists that if they really believed what they were saying, they wouldn't get so defensive when discussing it.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 2/24/2004 11:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Selah
quote:
Originally posted by borg
selah, yes I do live in Minnesota. I live in St. Paul, actually to get technical, Arden Hills. Why do you want to meet?
Wow, what a deal, I live in Arden Hills too! You're my neighbor. Hey...that's why I want to meet too Borg...you are my neighbor.
Hows that :)
love
selah
Hmmmmmm, I live in Shoreview. Do you go to Bethel, Borg? I went there a few years ago. Maybe all three of us are neighbors.
Also, Borg, I assume from your self-chosen moniker that you enjoy Star Trek. I'm sort of a Trekkie, too. I was thinking about this issue and I remembered a Voyager episode where Tuvok, the Vulcan, was going through his Pon-far (Vulcan male estress period, if you will) and since he was unable to be with his wife, Tom Paris encouraged him to use a hologram of his wife for his "relief".  Ahem. Anyway, Tuvok was at first very resistant to it, but Tom said that it wouldn't be like cheating since it was an image of his own wife and not a real person anyway. It was essentially the next best thing.
So, I was thinking that God sometimes chooses to use creative means by which His Children can get closer to Him better, also. Would you rather have a bunch of Christians who are disconnected from Jesus because there are no means to use by which they can connect with Him intimately? Would you rather have people leaving the faith altogether because their relationship with Jesus just simply never seemed real to them? If the Holy Spirit can use these means to bring His Children closer to Him, as many of these means have, who are we to say they shouldn't be utilized?
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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