Post Edited (One Love) : 1/21/2012 1:11:31 PM (GMT-6)

Post Edited (Tom) : 1/21/2012 5:12:55 PM (GMT-6)

AND he's still trying to run.  Sheesh. 

Post Edited (Tom) : 1/23/2012 7:55:24 AM (GMT-6)

I don’t know what to say, Bro. You asked “What is wrong with this statement?” and posted the statement. You didn’t ask us to do a research paper. You felt the statement was absolutely ignorant and idiotic. I’ll still register my disagreement with you.

All I’d say is wrong with the statement is Santorum’s belief that the God of Christianity and the God of Islam are absolutely and in every respect (I’m stretching the view I think Santorum holds) different Gods.

But dude, FIRST, this belief is not an absolutely ignorant and idiotic view. You need to see this. You can call it a matter of FACT all you want. I appreciate how convinced you are. I’m convinced too. But we both know it’s all about perspective. From a perspective, Santorum is right on this particular question. A lot of smart missiologists (who love Muslims and have given their life to serve them and who don’t have “issues” like I do) would disagree with you and me on this.

Are you going to rake Jesus over the coals like you have Santorum because Jesus on occasion claimed the God he worshipped and the God hios orthodox Jewish opponents worshipped was NOT the same God? His response to the Jews who claimed that they worship God their father was a surprising, “You do no such thing. The only father you worship is the Devil.” By your logic, given Jesus' statement, Jesus was absolutely ignorant and idiotic because he denied that his God and their God was the same God. But from a point of view Jesus was right. They were of their father the Devil, though they ostensibly offered worship to the one true God. It’s just not that cut and dry. There's always a perspective from which these claims about our God and your God are made, not only between Abrahamic religions, but as we see in Jesus' case, even WITHIN a single tradition.

My guess is Santorum is not an absolute idiot. I’m sure he’s got a few ‘experts’ on call as resources, and I don’t doubt he’s thought about this and has chosen one particular side of the debate over God. And in this respect, I’d say his statement is wrong, he's chosen the wrong side. But that’s all I can see is wrong with it. And even there it’s clearly not absolutely ignorant and idiotic. Lots of smart and sincere thinkers would agree with Santorum on this point. Are you really going to say they're all absolutely ignorant idiots?

SECOND, the truth about this is the truth OF A PERSPECTIVE. Jesus can go with the view that all Jews worshipped the one true God, the God he came to reveal. Fine. But from another equally valid perspective he could refuse to grant that these same Jews worshipped the one true God at all. Quite the opposite. It seems to me, D, that you want to invalidate all perspectives from which one may speak truthfully about diverse beliefs on God but your own and call a view that has a lot of thought and sincerity behind it (even if SOME have no serious thought behind it) ignorant and idiotic as it stand. Is that the ‘pluralism’ you have in mind?

THIRD, and more importantly, these perspectives on whose God is God DON’T MATTER when it comes to questions of equality. If Santorum agreed with you and me that the Christian and Muslim Gods are materially the same, he’d still have a valid point. That is, it WOULDN’T change the fact that Islam is incapable of delivering the same freedoms guaranteed to citizens in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. Do you agree with this much? Maybe you think I have “issues” about Islam and Democracy and freedom simply because I think Islam incapable of guaranteeing the freedoms of the Bill of Rights and Constitution (and other gender valuations like the one I’ve been pointing out, which doesn’t seem to bother you). If Santorum suggested that a woman’s testimony in court be worth only ½ that of a man’s, you’d be laying into him. You just don’t come across as even handed here.

FOUR, I may have “issues,” but the only reason for mentioning them in this conversation would be to show me how my issues are actually skewing my arguments and reasoning. Otherwise, whatever issues I have are irrelevant and beside the point. If my issues are clouding my reasoning or interpretation of things, I’m all ears. Show me where my issues have done this. If you can’t demonstrate that, then what’s the point of mentioning my issues?

FIFTH, if there are any facts of matter here, one is surely that when it comes to politics we ALL have issues. But we don’t have to be blinded by them. I hope I’m not. If Islam is perfectly capable of producing a pluralist society in which rights of speech, faith, gender, etc., are all equally achievable, I wanna see it. I get the feeling you think Islam can achieve this. That’s cool. There’s no historical precedent for it, but hey, who knows? I don’t want to willfully misunderstand and shut my eyes to the possibilities Islam brings to realizing a truly pluralist society. I’m all ears, Bro. All ears. This isn’t beside the point either. It’s germane to the whole Santorum thing, because it doesn’t matter whether or not Muslims and Christians worship the same God. YOU think this truth is a revolutionary thought, as if were we all agreed that Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same God we'd all of a sudden realize that each tradition equally delivers the freedoms innumerated in our Constitution and laws. But nothing like that is true. All that matters to Muslims is whether or not THEY can fully instantiate in a pluralist society all THEY believe Islam is designed by God to be. And there's nothing wrong with that. It OUGHT to be so. The same is true for Christians and Jews and ANY religious tradition that wants to survive in a pluralist society. Now, I could be WAY off, but I don't for a moment believe the vast majority of (let's say thoughtful, reflective) Muslims think Islam can be all they believe God intends Islam to be in a pluralist society. But I am convinced Christianity CAN be all God intends it to be in ANY type of society. THAT is the key difference here, not whether or not Christians and Muslims worship the same God. I don't think you've ever appreciated this about Islam, D. But if this opinion is one of my "issues," then I agree I have issues, though I just call them convictions.

You asked “What’s wrong with Santorum’s statement?” Well, from one valid point of view, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob IS the same God as Muslims worship, and from this point of view Santorum is wrong (I think). I disagree with you that this view itself is “absolutely ignorant and idiotic.” But big political-pluralist deal! Admitting the validity of the point of view which sees our Gods as one and the same doesn’t do away with another point Santorum (however sloppily) is trying to make, and that is that Islam is incapable of guaranteeing the freedoms Americans enjoy under the Bill of Rights and Constitution. Whether our Gods are one and the same is immaterial. That sameness doesn’t translate into the same freedoms in Islam. And on that point, Santorum is right. Unfortunately, though holding my view is compatible with pluralism, it’s not compatible with political correctness, so nobody who says what I just said about Islam could be elected President.

Tom

Post Edited (Tom) : 1/23/2012 10:15:50 PM (GMT-6)

Now if you were me, seeing all this, would you feel like your passionate perspective on this issue (which we have talked about a number of times on the board) was "skewing" your perspective just a bit?

Honestly, g.

Post Edited (One Love) : 1/24/2012 1:51:14 AM (GMT-6)

--------------------------------------------------------

So, Tom.  Was Santorum really trying to make YOUR point?  Really? 

Post Edited (One Love) : 1/24/2012 1:26:02 AM (GMT-6)

Show me where I ever point-blank disagreed with you on that.

So when I see...

"Call out Santorum on his missing the mark. That's cool. But call out Hooper and Islam's PR machinery as well. But you don't do that. Why not?"

and...

"Maybe you think I have “issues” about Islam and Democracy and freedom simply because I think Islam incapable of guaranteeing the freedoms of the Bill of Rights and Constitution (and other gender valuations like the one I’ve been pointing out, which doesn’t seem to bother you). If Santorum suggested that a woman’s testimony in court be worth only ½ that of a man’s, you’d be laying into him. You just don’t come across as even handed when it comes to politics Bro. Sorry."

this basically says to me...

"Dwayne is willing be cool with letting Islamic people like Hooper have normalized gender inequality while touting "equality" , but if Santorum were promoting the same gender inequality in Islam, Dwayne would be laying into him.  Why the double standard?  Because he's not 'even-handed' when it comes to politics."

I've tried reading this a lot of different ways...but that's the only interpretation that makes sense to me.  And, bro...because I had agreed with you on this subject A WHILE AGO...when I saw this...what ELSE could I think but that your perspective was being skewed by your passion?

Post Edited (One Love) : 1/24/2012 2:01:31 AM (GMT-6)

Post Edited (One Love) : 1/24/2012 2:00:08 AM (GMT-6)

What a crazy thead.

Tom: You asked “What’s wrong with Santorum’s statement?” Well, from one valid point of view, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob IS the same God as Muslims worship, and from this point of view Santorum is wrong (I think).

D: You think? Come on now, Tom. Now you're just being silly. You KNOW Santorum's wrong on that point.

Tom: By “think” I just meant “believe.” And like I said, he IS right from a point of view, just like Jesus was right to deny that his fellow Jews worshipped the same God he worshipped. But from another point of view he’s wrong. Problem is, Santorum only has one point of view. My point is that I think one could disagree with me (as many thoughtfully do) without being ‘absolutely ignorant and idiotic’.

------------------

Tom: If my issues are clouding my reasoning or interpretation of things, I’m all ears. Show me where my issues have done this. If you can’t demonstrate that, then what’s the point of mentioning my issues?

D: Dude. You have been a LIFELONG missionary to Muslims, dude. You've lived and breathed the Quran in that time, right? This has been my impression. So imagine my astonishment when you said that you couldn't see how the Surah was relevant to Santorum's statement!

Tom: OK, my bad. When I said I didn’t see what the verse had to do with Santorum’s point, I was speaking of the issue of equality, that’s all. Sure, Muslims all believe that Allah is one and the same as the God worshipped by Jews and Christians. NOBODY doubts this. Of course MUSLIMS believe this. And Santorum is denying this. Sure. That just wasn’t on the radar for me, probably for the reason that I’ve been trying to point out to you—it doesn’t matter to the more substantial issue Santorum mentions: equality (of whatever type).

And anyhow, Christians are under no obligation to the Quran. The Quran has nothing to do with why some deny we worship the same God. So what’s quoting the Quran to Santorum supposed to prove? You think he’s saying we have different Gods because that’s what Muslims also believe?

But sure, the verse does address the Muslim belief in the identity of their God with Judaism’s and Christianity’s God. I didn’t mean to deny this and I’m sorry for the confusion. My head was in the ‘equality’ point Santorum was making.

But that’s it? You said I had “issues” with Islam and democracy and freedom and had demonstrated these issues for years. And now these issues are skewing my reasoning. I was waiting for something big. I still don’t see what my issue was supposed to have been. Santorum says we don’t worship the same God. You point out that the Quran says we do worship the same God and call Santorum an idiot. Is telling Santorum that Muslims think we worship the same God supposed to mean something to Santorum? Is he an idiot for disagreeing with the Quran?

D: I felt like a friggin fifth grader who read both the statements would have figured it out...but it seemed to just float right by. And after that you IMMEDIATELY focused on the aspect of Santorum's words that you felt werent "bereft of truth"...and then talked about GENDER equality in Islam. I was like WTF? Santorum wasn't even trying to TALK about gender equality. (That much was obvious from the ABC article linked to the HuffPo article).

Tom: If you post a “statement” and ask a simple question about it, I’m just gonna tell you what I think given the statement you post. I’m not going to chase other websites down and research. Sorry. I only brought up gender equality as ONE EXAMPLE. He mentioned equality. You didn’t specify. So it seems to me that equality (any kind) is fair game. If a Muslim were to claim that Islam delivers the same equality (without specifying which he’s talking about) that the Bill of Right/Constitution do, all I need to do is produce a single example of a inequality inherent to Islamic jurisprudence—just one—and the Muslim’s point is disproved.

I hope things are clearer. You just asked about his statement and then swept it entirely, 100%, aside as trash and idiocy JUST BECAUSE he thinks our Gods aren’t the same. Dang. If you were focused in on JUST the idea that our Gods are the same and talk of any kind of equality was out of bounds, you shoulda told us. But you just threw it out there, “Hey, guys, anybody wanna GUESS what’s wrong with this statement?” and left it hanging. “Well,” I thought, “Santorum actually has a valid point about equality (gender being an example of equality), because Islam can’t deliver equality between the genders on some issues, for example…” so yeah, he’s got a point there. I didn’t mean to start WW3.

D: Now if you were me, would you feel like your passionate perspective on this issue (which we have talked about a number of times on the board) was "skewing" your perspective just a bit?

Tom: What passion? I’m not screaming or crying or yelling. I could care less whether or not Muslims really do worship the true God. It’s C-h-r-i-s-t or bust for me and Muslims. If they do worship God or they don’t, all I’m about is connecting them to Jesus, at which point whether we worship the same God or not is utterly beside the point, as beside the point as whether Jews worship the true God when Jesus said they were of their father the Devil. Me? Passion? I’m not even insisting I’m right and others are absolute ignoramuses and idiots if they disagree with me like you are. You’re upset because I only say I “think” and won’t insist that I “know” I’m absolutely right about our Gods being one and the same. Ha! My passion is skewing my thinking? I think not.

If you’ll accept that my original response was focused on the ‘equality’ issue, which I thought was the point, then no, I don’t think my thinking was skewed.

I’m actually shocked that you think whether people agree that Christians and Muslims worship the same God is more relevant overall (correct me if I’m wrong) or to Santorum’s comment than whether or not people understand that Islam is constitutionally incapable of guaranteeing equal measure of equality and justice as are guaranteed (even if imperfectly pursued) under the Bill of Rights and Constitution (which nobody can doubt where greatly influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition). If that is part of Santorum’s overall point—and it seems to be—then he’s spot on EVEN IF he’s wrong to think our worshipping different Gods has something to do with it.  

Aaaannnyhoooo! ;o)

As for Hooper, he knows Islamic law and he knows Islam is incompatible with American values. I don’t know what motivates him. But IF—IF—his reassurance of non-Muslims in the West that Muslims worship the same God as Jews and Christians and promote justice and equality is to encourage people to see Islam as posing no threat to justice and equality AS WE KNOW IT under the Bill of Rights and Constitution, THEN he’s being disingenuous and political, just as you think Santorum is being. That was my point. I'm carefull with my "ifs."

---------------------

D: (Tom’s thinking…) “Dwayne is willing to be cool with letting Islamic people like Hooper have normalized gender inequality while touting ‘equality’, but if Santorum were promoting the same gender inequality…Dwayne would be laying into him. Why the double standard?”

I’ve tried reading this a lot of different ways...but that’s the only interpretation that makes sense to me.

Tom: That’s precisely my meaning.

D: And, bro...because I had agreed with you on this subject A WHILE AGO...when I saw this...what ELSE could I think but that your perspective was being skewed by your passion?

Tom: This is getting crazy.

Let me ask you the same question. Maybe it’ll help clarify. What ELSE could I think but that you were functioning with an implicit double standard for laying into Santorum (for holding a view that means next to nothing of substance) but saying nothing of Islam where substance matters (justice and equality) except to quote Hooper to the effect that we all worship the same God and Muslims promote justice and equality…and oh, Santorum’s an idiot.

Let me put it this way. Because I know what Islam is, and because whether we worship the same God is virtually meaningless to me (though it seems paramount to you), I can’t lay into Santorum (as much as I had of his comment that you posted and that’s all I was going on) the way you did, nor can I imagine NOT bringing up Islam’s failure on the VERY point Hooper wants us to see Islam as compatible with American values (why ELSE does he say what he says?), namely, justice and equality. So of course you came across as been less than fair.

We have to have a good fight it seems once a year!

Tom

Post Edited (Tom) : 1/24/2012 2:59:39 AM (GMT-6)

I'll bet you a million dollars that the Surah that I gave was ONE OF THE TEXTS that Hooper was probably thinking about.  I know that it came to my mind INSTANTLY when I first saw Santorum's statement in the first place.  Hence, this whole thread.

But see the intent that you try to put on Hooper because you could be no other "meaningful" way he could be saying things?  It HAD to be about subtlely making Islam compatible with AMERICAN VALUES...something Hooper's quote never even MENTIONS.

Post Edited (One Love) : 1/24/2012 10:34:11 AM (GMT-6)

Post Edited (Tom) : 1/25/2012 9:26:00 AM (GMT-6)