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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > "Satan, the Great Deceiver": An Orthodox Talk | Forum Quick Jump
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 2/25/2012 10:33 AM (GMT -6) |   | "I am not seeking to answer the age-old problem of evil in this world, nor will I even explain (or should I say try and explain) the existence of evil. "
J: That's the point. These people aren't even attempting to explain the "problem" of evil. So the real question is: Is there actually a PROBLEM of evil at all? I say there is. It's the problem of making sense of APPARENT futility in terms of a BENEVOLENT/COMPETENT intent of a Designer. Benevolence is contrary to FUTILITY. What people want is a way to RATIONALLY render APPARENT futility MERELY apparent. That's what theodicies attempt.
"Charles Darwin started life as a creationist and only gradually came to realize the significance of the variation he observed in his travels aboard the Beagle. For the past 151 years, since On the Origin of Species was published, people have been arguing over evolution. Our ape ancestry conflicts with every culture’s creation myth and isn’t particularly intuitive, but everything we’ve learned since then—in biology, geology, genetics, paleontology, even chemistry and physics—supports his great insight."
J: This is 175-year old bluff. Natural selection is a tautology. It's true whether universal common ancestry is true OR typological separate ancestry is true. Because tautologies are true by definition. But it doesn't predict any particular genealogical history. Thus, it's not even testable. It's just true by definition.
The fact is, Darwin chose universal common ancestry over separate ancestry because of the problem of evil. The history is out there for any one to read. No one even believes Darwin's particular view of variation any more. And modern understandings of it don't imply universal common ancestry either. They're just not known to contradict universal common ancestry. But neither are they known to contradict typological separate ancestries.
The fact is, the design hypothesis is the only explanatory one at all. It's just untestable like the UCA ones are. Universal common ancestry has nothing to do with the problem of evil PER SE precisely BECAUSE Greg's theodicy IS a logical possibility. The question is: Is it even remotely plausible in terms of scriptural exegesis and sound history? If not, then it doesn't help a Christian view of benevolent theism. It just demonstrates that benevolent theism PER SE is coherent even if UCA is true.
Post Edited (Similitude) : 2/25/2012 9:53:37 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 2/25/2012 11:30 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Brandon: No. Not APPARENT evil but REAL "red tooth and claw" evil. D has always been saying God is responsible for such evil.
Jeff: Yes, what I meant, if I didn't say it right, is that the EVIL is not apparent, but the futility COULD be merely apparent if there is a theodicy that can explain it thus.
Clearly the futility IS real when viewed from a temporal perspective. And Paul is admitting as much. It's when compared to the eternal or the age-abiding (for the elect) that the futility is not absolute. IOW, the world is an order that is judged in terms of the appropriate analogies. Paul is saying that our life in THIS world/age is not all there is. So what IS futile in THIS world can be rendered NOT absolutely futile when viewed non-temporally. In short, given post-mortem sentient states, there CAN be a benevolent reason why God is enduring the temporal futility such that ultimately it results in a greater good for all.
Brandon: And human kind for the most part DOESN'T live with a heart focused on thankfulness toward the Creator of life.
Jeff: But there's no reason to be thankful to a god who isn't benevolent. That's the point. There HAS to be a theodicy that renders thankfulness, etc RATIONAL. And that means EXPLAINING how the temporal futility is not ABSOLUTE futility.
What is important to emphasize is that Paul is saying that the temporal futility exists INDEPENDENTLY of our choices. Our choices can diminish the intensity of it. But they can not eradicate it. There is no choosing our way out of it IN THIS LIFE. The way out is the NEXT life. But the only way Paul can even CALL it a real futility is BECAUSE temporal ends are to be interpreted in terms of the analogies APPROPRIATE to this life. It's not plausible that God meant for us to interpret the current futility as a MEANS to becoming. For then, it would not even BE futility. It would just be a legitimate means to our proper becoming. Rather, we know this futility to BE a real futility in terms of the obvious ends of temporal life. But we also CAN know it to be merely temporal. That "time" re-evaluation of it IS one aspect of theodicy.
Post Edited (Similitude) : 2/25/2012 11:24:26 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/25/2012 12:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Jeff:
It's when compared to the eternal or the age-abiding (for the elect) that the futility is not absolute. IOW, the world is an order that is judged in terms of the appropriate analogies. Paul is saying that our life in THIS world/age is not all there is. So what IS futile in THIS world can be rendered NOT absolutely futile when viewed non-temporally. In short, given post-mortem sentient states, there CAN be a benevolent reason why God is enduring the temporal futility such that ultimately it results in a greater good for all.
Yeppers, Jerff. The Holy (Uncreated Reality, God) is the ONLY thing that can empower creaturely "world composition" beyond the Void.
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Jeff:
That's why, to me, it's about people's intuitive realization that they are eschatological beings--that their capacity for teleological causality is, itself, INTENDED to be directed to the ENDS of their own DESIGNER. But that's precisely why apparent futility SEEMS to imply an apparent problem of evil.
I agree.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
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