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One Love
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   Posted 2/24/2012 6:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
May Be Nothing But...

Had this idea.  Human/animal sacrifice.
 
8. Cultures throughout history and around the world have engaged in ritual human sacrifice.
Say you’re about to die and are packing some supplies for the afterlife. What to take? A couple of coins for the ferryman? Some flowers, maybe, or mementos of your loved ones? If you were an ancient Egyptian pharaoh, you’d have your servants slaughtered and buried adjacent to your tomb. Concubines were sacrificed in China to be eternal companions; certain Indian sects required human sacrifices. The Aztecs slaughtered tens of thousands of people to inaugurate the Great Pyramid of Tenochtitlan; after sacred Mayan ballgames, the losing team was sometimes sacrificed.
 
Basically, human and animal sacrifices have been pretty UNIVERSAL as far as cultures go, time and geography wise.
 
 
Now, watch this.
 
Let's say that we take Jesus as real.  Meaning his expiatory work.
 
Wouldn't the UNIVERSAL drive for animal/human sacrifice be a big SET-UP for for coming of the Incarnate One to END all that?
 
What other religion has the idea of ONE human taking on ALL that separates "GOD" and humanity...and expiating it for ALL persons for ALL times?
 
What other worldview satisfies this oddly universal drive for seeking divine favor in the midst of "falling short" so absolutely?
 
Like the Key to a big friggin Lock.
 
I'm thinking divine set up.
 
What do y'all think?

idea 


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 2/24/2012 5:47:37 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 2/24/2012 6:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
And that's the thing.

Jesus' way WAS self-chosen ("drops of blood" ), from a self-understanding of as God's "sacrifice" for Jews and "Gentiles" (everyone else!). To make one people out of the two, right?

If Jesus saw himself in Isaiah 53 at all...


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 2/24/2012 6:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jesus

The

Lamb

Of

God.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 2/24/2012 6:46 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thoughts:

1) Could this be the evolutionary pattern of the Sensus Divinum?

2) Jesus solves the tension between Uncreated and Created that had been historically developing for us all. It's NOT that God is "up there" and we are "down here" and never the twain meet. It's NOT that we ARE God inherently or naturally. It's that there is a relationality in fulfilled human nature between the Created and Uncreated such that...

"...the Kingdom of God is WITHIN you."


Can I get a WITNESS up in heyaaaaaaaaa! hop


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 2/24/2012 6:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 2/24/2012 10:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Repost...from the Historical Adam thread. 

Posted By : One Love - 6/29/2011 2:17 PM
Tom:
Can somebody show me how Paul’s teaching about Christ is similarly unaffected by Paul’s mistakenly believing Adam to be a historical figure? That’s what I need. I think that's what Enns needs to SHOW (instead of just claiming that it's so).

This is the perspective at BioLogos, I'd say...

What holds Paul’s argument together is not a commitment to a particular first human, or to a particular reading of the story of Adam. Rather, it is a commitment to Jesus as the one savior and deliverer for all people—Jew or Gentile. For Paul, it is not Adam who determines a particular understanding of Jesus. Instead it is a prior conviction about Jesus that determines a particular reading of Adam.

In my previous post, I noted how the creation narrative is echoed in later stories about Israel, including an expectation that Israel would one day have a king. Paul reads the Adam story very differently. His vision has been shaped by what he sees to be the ultimate act of God, the death and resurrection of Jesus. This event shapes Paul’s understanding of Adam.

So in Romans 5, when Paul launches into his description of the work of Adam, he gives a reading deeply colored by his convictions about Jesus. We need to attune ourselves to the interpretive decisions Paul is making. Paul could read Genesis as teaching that Adam’s act introduced corruption into the human heart, and that’s why people stand under judgment (“Every intention of their heart is only evil all the time”, as Genesis 6:5 puts it). But he didn’t. Paul points back to one act. Similarly, Paul could have read Genesis 3 as a narrative that gives equal blame to both man and woman or even a story that teaches that sin entered into the world through woman (Eve). But he doesn’t. Why does he interpret the stories as pointing to the decisive act of one man? Because of his prior conviction about the gospel as a story surrounding the decisive act of one man.

There is a two-way conversation taking place in scripture. The Old Testament creates some expectations and tells stories with plot lines that anticipate resolution in the future. Then the New Testament comes along, but not merely to say that those expectations are met and stories are resolved. Rather, they find a surprising climax in the death and resurrection of Jesus. This surprise ending often transforms how the Old Testament stories are read.

Paul has rewritten the Adam narrative to correspond with his convictions concerning Jesus’ death and resurrection. Once we understand this, the pressure to hold onto Adam as a historical figure is released. Paul is using the creation stories for precisely the same function as that for which they were written: to show how God’s act of redemption corresponds to God’s act of creation.

When speaking of Jesus and Adam in Romans 5, Paul’s point is this: God has provided for universal salvation through one man’s one act. This act of salvation more than offsets the universal need for salvation. According to the biblical story as Paul portrays it, one man introduced this need for deliverance. And according to the gospel that brings this story to its consummation, one man’s act met this need for salvation.

------------------------------------------------------------

They basically just talk about Paul using Adam for the sake of conveying the universality of Christ's work combating the universal problem of sin. I guess they'd just take the universality of sin AS A GIVEN and go from there. I guess they are banking on no one questioning the universality of human sin and brokenness.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 2/24/2012 9:48:16 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 2/24/2012 10:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dang, this is beautiful, y'all.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 2/25/2012 8:53 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Older threads...

The Incarnation: What Does It Mean?

Jesus was so...Jewish

It's all there.

God bless this board and it's participants!

biggrin 


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 2/25/2012 8:02:08 AM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 2/25/2012 9:00 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Repostings...

1) Jesus of Nazareth (Mary's son) is the same person as the uncreated Son/Word/Logos of God, who is the continual immanent ground of being for all things that exist.  So, Jesus' personal presence is immediately within each human that exists.  We can enter an immediate, personal, intimate love relationship with Jesus that transcends our discursive reason in silent, numinous presence.
 
 
2) The universe, including Earth, belongs to the resurrected Jesus...right now.  Not later.  Now.  This is just an aspect of his current Lordship.
 
 
3) Jesus' resurrected, glorified body--which is fully "participating" in "God's honor and glory"--is assurance of the eternal importance and interest in Creation. We can be assured that God is not just gonna let it collapse into the Void utterly.  The Void CANNOT be the "final destination" for Creation. This belief grounds faith, hope, and love.
 
 
4) Love of God and "neighbor" are Jesus' immutable directives for any who recognize Jesus' current Lordship.  It is simultaneously the natural movement of authentic humanity.
 
 
5) The 4 Movements...
 
creation
incarnation
resurrection
deification
 
It's where God freely self-experiences and self-expresses as "Immanuel" (God with us)
 
It's also where God makes something "other" (us) to be beautiful as God is beautiful.
 
 
6) The uncreated Holy Spirit of Jesus--the Empowerment of the 4 Movements--is a direct personal presence to which every human has direct, immediate access, given the relationship of uncreated and created.  That is "gift."  It is our "task" to raise our awareness of what is already the case.

---------------------------------------------------

Quotes from Sergii Bulgakov...

Before Christ, man was the sole hypostasis for the world's hypostaticity, in Christ the Logos appeared, that hypostasis, having shared with man the common hypostaticity, having the Sophanic nature in both its aspects. In him occurred the union of both aspects through the ground of the Church, uniting the earthly with the heavenly. And the human created hypostasis in the manifold aspects of his repetitions is united in Christ with the proto-image, and becomes his church. The human image merges with the proto-image, and disappearing in it as a spark in fire, man, as it were, declines his created hypostasis for the eternal hypostasis of Christ, in which connection the "salvation" of every man consists precisely in this, that "having ruined his own soul," to find eternal life with Christ and in Christ, and thereby to realize in himself the unconditional hypostasis, i.e. having overcome his own multi-hypostaticity, to conquer in love created limitedness, having melted his own I, to pour it into the ocean of trihypostaticity ("we will come and create a home with him," Jn 14:23).

and...

Christ has the Body-Church, the house of God (1 Tim 3:15); hypostaticity in Christ possesses its own hypostasis and in that sense in the Church each man is one with Christ, is Christ, living in all. Nevertheless his body itself is not Christ, but only of Christ, it belongs to him in self-surrendering love.

-------------------------------------------------

I believe Satan's main operation of deceit is skewing our perspectives of our actual theandric, theocentric relationship with Uncreated Reality in misrelation via a two-storey universe. Speaking in Loderian terms, Satan take our focus from a right relationship with the "Holy" and places it upon "environment", "self", and "the Void" (which render the "environment" and "self" meaningless without the "Holy" ).  And it's THIS fundamental "lie" that the Incarnation of the John 1:1 Word into human flesh has destroyed! 

 
It is NOT the case the the Uncreated and Created are opposed to one another.
 
It is NOT the case that the Uncreated and Created are identical (even secretly).
 
It is NOT the case that the Uncreated and Created can EVER be ontologically separate. (They are infinitely distinct realities but NOT separate/isolated from each other.)
 
It is NOT the case that the Uncreated is ONLY coextensive with the Created.
 
It is NOT the case that the Created is it's own ground of being.
 
If we allow it, the Chalcedonian doctrine of the Incarnation shows us ALL this.

---------------------------------------------------

The Abrahamic Religions Common “Tradition”

 

Torah-asserted, Jesus-affirmed Commandments from God (Deut 6:8-9; Lev 19:9-18)

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.  This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

 

Torah-asserted, Jesus-affirmed Criteria for "Loving Your Neighbor As Yourself"(Lev 19:9-18)
1) When you gain from your work, don't just think about yourself. Think of the poor and the wayfarer.
2) Don't steal.
3) Don't operate by false pretenses or motives.
4) Don't lie to each other.
5) Don't oppress or rob your neighbor.
6) Don't mistreat the physically (or mentally) challenged.
7) Don't promote injustice or partiality. Judge righteously.
8) Don't slander others.
9) Don’t threaten the life of your neighbors.
10) Don't hate your brother (or sister) "in your heart."
11) Don't take vengeance for yourself.
12) Don't hold a grudge against your neighbor.

 

The "New" Commandment from Jesus...

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another."

"This is my command: Love each other."

 

Verification of Jesus' teachings by His followers...

"For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another." --1 John 3:11

 

For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”  --Galatians 5:13-14

 

The Core Message of Jesus as God's Prophet and Messenger:

Human beings are to express singular worship of and submission to the One Uncreated Creator by a) thanksgiving, adoration and glorification to the Creator and b) works of loving-kindness and compassion to others and ourselves. In this, we are also to consecrate ourselves and be holy, compassionate, merciful, and loving because our Creator is holy, compassionate, merciful and loving.

---------------------------------------------------------

Marcus J. Borg
Jesus: A New Vision--Spirit, Culture, and the Life of Discipleship.
Chapter 6. Jesus as Sage: Challenge to Conventional Wisdom
"The Way of Death"
Pages 112-115
 

The central image of the Christian tradition is an image of death: the cross. To be sure, the cross is also an image of life because of its intrinsic connection to resurrection; Good Friday and Easter belong together. Undoubtedly the cross is so central because of the way Jesus' historical life ended. Yet what it symbolizes--death and resurrection--was also one of the central images for the path of transformation taught by Jesus himself.
 
In one of Jesus' best-known sayings, he spoke explicitly of the path as the way of dying: "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cros and follow me." Using the language of a path or way ( "come after me," "follow me" ), Jesus starkly indentified that path as "taking up the cross." Before Jesus' death, "cross" was obviously not yet a Christian symbol but referred to a method of execution used by the Romans. It was customary for the person sentenced to be crucified to carry the horizontal beam of the cross to the place of execution. Hence, "taking up one's cross" meant walking the road to death. The meaning of the saying is clear: to be a follower of Jesus was to embark upon the path of death.
 
The same point was made with other closely related metaphors. Jesus asked his disciples, "Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?" "Drinking the cup" and baptism were both images for death. Similiarly, Jesus said, "Whoever seeks to gain his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it."
 
But what kind of death was this? Clearly it was meant metaphorically and not literally. The "way of death" did not mean physical death, even though some of the early followers of Jesus were martyred. Rather, it was a metaphor for an internal process, as Luke made clear by adding the word "daily" to the saying about taking up one's cross. This internal dying or death has two closely related dimensions of meaning. On the one hand, it is a dying of the self as the center of its own concern. On the other hand, it is a dying to the world as the center of security and identity. These--the self and the world--are the two great rival centers to centering in God, and the path of transformation thus involves a dying to both of them. The "world" to which one must die is the world of conventional wisdom, the world of "culture" with its preoccupying securities; and the self which must die is the self-preoccupied self. Then is born a self which is centered in God, in Spirit and not in culture.
 
"Dying" is a striking metaphor for this process. It points to the radicality of the change, of course; this radical recentering brings about a change so sharp that is can described as dying to an old life and being born into a new life. "Dying" may have a further nuance as well. Because the heart which is centered in culture cannot be changed by the mind or the will (for both are slaves of the heart), a hardened heart must in a sense die in order that a new heart may be created; it cannot change itself. "Dying" is something that happens to the self as opposed to it being something that the self accomplishes. How this dying occurs varies greatly from person to person; for some, it may involve an inrushing of the Spirit, for others a severe life crisis, for others, a long, gradual journey. But, in any case, the central movement in dying is a handing over, a surrendering, a letting go, and a radical central in God.
 
This transformation brought about through an internal death is at the heart of the early Christian tradition. Paul describes himself as having undergone such a death: "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me." It is found in John's theology: "Unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit." Baptism, the early church's ritual of initiation, was understood as a death of an old self and a resurrection of a new self.
 
This widespread attestation of the motif in the tradition is to some extent due to the way Jesus' historical life ended. But it is also a continuation of what Jesus himself taught. In a quite historical sense, Jesus not only taught the way of death as the path of transformation, but his life and death became an incarnation of the way which he taught. Indeed, it is this remarkable congruity between the teaching of Jesus and the way his life ended that accounts in part for the power which his figure has had over the centuries. Thus the cross is an extraordinarily rich image, pointing both to the death of Jesus and to the heart of his teaching: the path of transformation is a dying to the self and the world.
 
There is thus a world-denying and culture-denying quality to the teaching of Jesus. The statement needs to be guarded against three possible misinterpretations. It was not a world denial based upon a dualistic understanding of the material or natural world as evil, and the world of Spirit as good. Jesus took delight in the natural world as the creation of God. He was not an ascetic in the usual sense of the word; he was reputed to enjoy both food and drink, and was known for banqueting with outcasts. Though he spoke of abandoning the family as the center of one's loyalty and security and apparently was unmarried himself, there is no reason to think that he was opposed to sexuality. Indeed, he sanctified the family more than his tradition did. In short, it was not the natural world or the finite itself that was evil; consistent with the Jewish tradition, Jesus saw that as created by God and therefore good.
 
Second, his challenge to conventional wisdom was not a complete overthrowing or disregard of tradition. He was, in an important sense, neither anit-law nor anti-convention. He was a Jew who treasured his tradition. He quoted Scripture, explicitly affirmed the Ten Commandments, and so far as we know observed the Jewish law all his life. Rather, his challenge to conventional wisdom was a challenge to what may be called "enculturated religion": religiou accomodated to conventional wisdom and increasingly shaped by those who were the beneficiaries of conventional wisdom. When this happens, religion becomes a legitimator of a way of life rather than invitation to a new way of lofe. In short, it was the world of conventional wisdom as the center of identity and security that was negated. In this sense, the teaching of Jesus is world denying; the world of culture as the center of existence comes to an end.
 
Third, Jesus' challenge to conventional wisdom must always be kept within the framework of his perception of reality as gracious and compassionate. His challenge must not be seen as a new requirement; when it is, his teaching becomes another form of conventional wisdom, sometimes a very severe one. Rather, his challenge is an invitation to see things as they really are--namely, at the heart of everything is a reality that is in love with us. Thus, though his way was the narrow way, "the eye of the needle," it was also somewhat paradoxically the easy way. It was hard especially for those who were secure within the framework of conventional wisdom; for them to die to the world meant letting go of a world which pronounced them "blessed." Yet his way was also the "easy yoke" for some, for those who were burdened by the world of culture: "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest; for my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

-----------------------------------

See the Christ picture...

 


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 2/27/2012 3:50:34 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 2/25/2012 9:10 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"Jesus, son of Mary, is the Incarnate Uncreated Word of God the Father by the power of the Holy Spirit."

Credo.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 2/25/2012 8:20:33 AM (GMT-6)

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