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One Love
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   Posted 5/4/2012 7:49 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Maybe it's the current state of mind I'm in...but I'm having a real struggle with this.  It seems that in January of this year, Ben Witherington lost his adult daughter to a pulmonary embolism.  He's blogged about it...and CT has something on it. (God bless him and his family richly!).  Here's his first post in a series...
 
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GOOD GRIEF — WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE?

 

Having recently gone through the devastating experience of having our beautiful 32-year-old daughter die, completely unexpectedly, of a pulmonary embolism, I was determined from Day One (January 11, when she was found dead in her home in Durham, N.C.) to be open to whatever positive thing there might be to glean from this.  I cling by my fingernails to the promise of Romans 8:28 that “God works all things together for good for those who love him….”

The first point that was immediately confirmed in my heart was theological: God did not do this to my baby.  God is not the author of evil.  God does not terminate sweet children’s lives with pulmonary embolisms.  Pulmonary embolisms are a result of human fallenness and the bent nature of this world.

One of the primary reasons I am not a Calvinist and do not believe in such predestinings from the hand of God is (1) because I find it impossible to believe that I am more merciful or compassionate than God.   Also, (2) the Biblical portrait of God is that God is pure light and holy love; in him there is no darkness, nothing other than light and love.  (3) The words “The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away,” from the lips of Job, are not good theology.  They’re bad theology.  According to Job 1, it was not God, but the Devil who took away Job’s children, health and wealth.  God allowed it to happen, but when Job said these words, as the rest of the story shows, he was not yet enlightened about the true nature of where his calamity came from and what God’s will actually was for his life — which was for good, and not for harm.

So, for me, the beginning of good grief starts with the premise of a good God.  Otherwise, all bets are off.  If God is almighty and malevolent, then there is no solace to be found in God.   If God is the author of sin, evil, suffering, the fall, and death, then the Bible makes no sense when it tells us that (1) God tempts no one, that (2) God’s will is that none should perish but have everlasting life, and that (3) death is the very enemy of God and humankind that Jesus, who is life, came to abolish and destroy.

“He came that we might have life and have abundantly.”  If there are promises I cling to, as I weep for my sweet Christy, it is this promise, not the sorry solace and cold comfort of “God did this but we do not know why.”  No.  A thousand times, no!  God and his will are always and only for what is good, and true, and beautiful, and loving, and holy.

As I stared at my baby in the casket — who did not even resemble herself at that juncture — I was so thankful that the God of the resurrection had a better plan for her than that cold comfort that “It’s all God’s will.”  I believe in a God whose Yes to life is louder than death’s No — not because God likes to hold antinomies like life and death together in some sort of mysterious unity, but because God is in the trenches with us, fighting the very same evils we fight in this world, like disease, decay, death, suffering, sorrow and sin.

They don’t call him the Great Physician for nothing.  He too took the Hippocratic Oath: “Do no harm.”

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Something in me is seething at this.  I don't know why...but it is.

I think it's for the same reason that I seethed when Greg said that God had nothing to do with 9-11.

How the hell does HE (or ANYONE) know how God's involved in death-dealing events like that or not?

For all these people that wanna talk "spiritual warfare", why do they ever talk about the COLLATERAL DAMAGE that can sometimes take place, by God's direct activity.  (Just being consistent, right?)

So, what if God DID do it?  Then he's automatically the bad guy?  If God did this for some reason you cannot know, now God is fu*kin' Hannibal Lecter??

Or maybe this whole thing is about just saying whatever the FU*K we wanna say in times like these to make ourselves feel better!

I'm really, really struggling with this right now.

Help?


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/4/2012 8:26:10 AM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 5/4/2012 8:15 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
More thoughts...in another post, Witherington says...his emphases in bold

------------------

On the whole, I think part of the problem for 21st-century Christians is we have caught the disease of our culture — the disease of a strong, even overwhelming sense of entitlement, not to be confused with great expectations. The entitlement mentality says “I have a right to life.” We even have a “right to life movement” for the unborn, which is what I would call doing the job half way. If you are going to go that route, the born have as much “right to life” as the unborn. That’s in part why yours truly is a pacifist for Jesus sake. I believe in being totally pro-life, not just pro unborn life.

Here, I must focus on a simple Biblical fact:
Life is a gift from God. It’s not a right. It never was a right, and never will be a right. It is a gift.

Once you let that really sink in and saturate your theo—logic, then what follows is that we are not OWED more of it. We are not OWED a certain quantity of time or of life in this world. It simply isn’t true. And that leads to a further truth: it is not an injustice when someone dies young. It’s not a justice issue at all, since life is a gift, not some sort of ironclad right. God does not owe us a certain quotient of life. Indeed, he does not owe us life or birth at all.
It’s a gift!

So, when I think about my sweet-pea Christy dying way before me, I must resist the temptation to think somehow THIS IS UNFAIR. No. It’s tragic, to be sure. It’s sad, shocking and horrible in many ways. But it’s not an injustice. If all of life is grace, then we have to think differently about this issue.

A wise person once said that justice is when you get what you deserve, mercy is when you don’t get what you deserve (in a negative sense), and grace is when you get undeserved blessing. Life falls into that third category, not the first or second ones. Jesus came that we might have life and have it abundantly, but its not because we DESERVE TO LIVE OR GO ON LIVING, it’s not because it’s owed to us. It’s a gracious blessing.

----------------------------

Isn't this JUST WHAT Calvinists use to say that we have NO REASON TO COMPLAIN about what happens to us? John Piper himself may as well have said this! We are not OWED life, love, or goodness AT ALL. Whatever we do receive is GRACE. We ARE nothing, relatively MEANINGLESS, indeed. 

So, how the FU*K is the idea of "The Lord give and the Lord takes away" some type of bad theology? Was it bad theology whenever Jesus killed Ananias and Sapphira?  For all we know, God could have killed them USING an aneurysm.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/4/2012 8:21:15 AM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 5/4/2012 8:33 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: So, how the FU*K is the idea of "The Lord give and the Lord takes away" some type of bad theology?

T: It's bad theology because it precludes the possibility that suffering occurs outside God's will. It just argues that everything that occurs is God's direct administration of the world. And that's bad theology. God MAY judge an Annanias, but not all deaths are acts of divine judgment or divine acts at all? It's bad theology because it limits God to the micromanagement of all that occurs.

To say that God can SOMETIMES make loving/redemptive use of the worst of situations is entirely different than saying God straight-up authors the worst of situations. Evil is privation, right? And God doesn't private and is not privated. That's the point. So I think it's certainly good and necessary to be able to affirm this in the face of suffering.

Tom


"The aesthetic value the world has for God is in expressing, not constituting, the aesthetic value God eternally finds within Godself." Greg Boyd

Post Edited (Tom) : 5/4/2012 8:39:03 AM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 5/4/2012 9:00 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
It's bad theology because it limits God to the micromanagement of all that occurs.

What kind of theology articulates that God does not micromanage all that occurs, and yet CAN do and/or allow "micromanaging" events, some of which would seem morally ambiguous or gratuitously "evil"? THAT's the theology I'm looking for.  Greg will FORMALLY admit this, as you and I have seen, but he will NEVER come out and say what that can look like.
 
Right?

*****************************************

Tom:
To say that God can SOMETIMES make loving/redemptive use of the worst of situations is entirely different than saying God straight-up authors the worst of situations. Evil is privation, right? And God doesn't private and is not privated. That's the point. So I think it's certainly good and necessary to be able to affirm this in the face of suffering.

What I'm saying, Tom, is that, for the people affected, God's making loving/redemptive use of the worst of situations CAN EFFECTIVELY LOOK LIKE God "authoring" (or at least being COMPLICIT in) the worst of situations. In other words, to win a battle in a war, sometimes "civilians" are in a crossfire (like say when a child is killed by some disease or accident) At that time, does it functionally matter that Love is possibly "micromanagingly" doing this for a purpose that can't understand or possibly percieve? Sure, given a certain perspective...but does Witherington have that perspective. With what you read, what do you think?


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 5/4/2012 9:13 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
More.

The very "giftedness" of our existence makes anything other than loving gratitude and openness to God for EVERY occurance (which somtimes only silence makes possible) a profound misunderstanding of the "giftedness" itself. No one can ultimately lay claims on God. Witherington was right on that.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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Tom
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   Posted 5/4/2012 10:26 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: The very "giftedness" of our existence makes anything other than loving gratitude and openness to God for EVERY occurance (which somtimes only silence makes possible) a profound misunderstanding of the "giftedness" itself.

T: I don't think recognizing the giftedness of 'being' means being grateful to God FOR every occurance if that means being grateful for the "privation" of being. God isn't and cannot be behind THAT, even compatibilistically. See what I mean? And privation of being is observable in the world.

T


"The aesthetic value the world has for God is in expressing, not constituting, the aesthetic value God eternally finds within Godself." Greg Boyd

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One Love
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   Posted 5/4/2012 10:44 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
I don't think recognizing the giftedness of 'being' means being grateful to God FOR every occurance if that means being grateful for the "privation" of being. God isn't and cannot be behind THAT, even compatibilistically. See what I mean? And privation of being is observable in the world.

Oh, right. The "IN-all-things-not-FOR-all-things" idea. I'm saying that Grace empowers our very PERCEPTION and UNDERSTANDING of privation. Without the "gift" of our prehensive powers (and the perhending self), we wouldn't even KNOW what privation even was, right? THAT's what I mean by "for every occurance." God's benevolence grounds our perceptions and interpretations of privation...and we can be thankful for that.

In short, regardless of WHAT the situation is, there is always something to be grateful to God for during that event (namely the presence of God Himself).


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/4/2012 10:58:18 AM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 5/4/2012 2:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The Whys and Whats of God


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/5/2012 6:58:35 AM (GMT-5)

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Asher
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   Posted 5/4/2012 5:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"No one can ultimately lay claims on God."

Maybe you need to unpack this for me, maybe you mean something different than what I get just from the surface of this...because on the surface, I disagree. No claims?! None of any kind? What the hell are His promises for then? I think that God actually WANTS us to lay claims on Him. Not irrational, immature ones...but he didn't say "I now call you friends" for nothing!
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Tom
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   Posted 5/4/2012 11:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think D means "demands."

T


"The aesthetic value the world has for God is in expressing, not constituting, the aesthetic value God eternally finds within Godself." Greg Boyd

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 5/5/2012 5:51 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't think yor link is working D.


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

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One Love
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   Posted 5/5/2012 7:01 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
1) Tom's right, Asher. We don't have any innate sense of entitlement merely because we exist. And we are NOT to do some stupid variation of magical incantations or cajoling of God by "putting God's Word on it" or trying to put God's "promises" in his face, like some Christians try to do. (I dislike that nonsense. Seen it too much.)

2) Link's fixed, B. Thanks for lettin' me know.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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Tom
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   Posted 5/5/2012 8:52 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'd say we're entitled to believe and act upont the TRUTH, and that includes our being unconditionally loved and valued. But we can't KNOW that this must mean I'm healed now of my cancer, or that my daughter NOT be raped, etc.

T


"The aesthetic value the world has for God is in expressing, not constituting, the aesthetic value God eternally finds within Godself." Greg Boyd

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Similitude
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   Posted 5/5/2012 10:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: In short, regardless of WHAT the situation is, there is always something to be grateful to God for during that event (namely the presence of God Himself).

J: But why would God's presence be something to be grateful for if it can't be known to imply that life will be utterly worthwhile? Your analogy of civilian death in war is the relevant one. Those actions are performed precisely because they're determined to be worth it in terms of some utilitarian calculus. If God is not doing the same, in a competently benevolent way, we have no reason to be thankful to Him any more than we have reason to be thankful to Satan merely because Satan may be "present" in suffering/tragedy. And that's why the Romans passage about things working UNTO the good is precisely to the point.


 

Post Edited (Similitude) : 5/5/2012 11:04:46 AM (GMT-5)

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