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Similitude
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   Posted 10/20/2012 12:29 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

“Do not resist an evildoer,” Jesus said. And “if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also”(Mt 5:39). So too, he commanded us to “[l]ove your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you” (Lk 6:27-28). Never does Jesus or any New Testament author qualify this teaching or provide any exceptions to it. To the contrary, Paul reiterates it (Rom. 12:17-21). And remember, to speak of “enemies” to Jews in first century Palestine was to speak first and foremost about the oppressive Romans. These are the enemies we’re to “not resist” and to love, serve and bless.

Jesus’ teaching is perfectly straight-forward, yet this very straightforwardness presents us with a dilemma.

Greg gives enough right there to explain the dilemma without reinterpreting the whole OT, thereby implying everyone has been clueless for 2000 years. Jesus began his Matthew discourse by saying he had not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. He explains this by saying not ONE jot or tittle would pass from the law OR prophets until the heaven and earth pass away and all be fulfilled. As some post-millenialists have admitted, this must at least bring things to 70 A.D. And that's with a very metaphorical view of the NT that isn't even necessary.

But what is Paul doing in Rom 12? He's showing two things that corroborate Jesus and contradict Greg. First, Paul reaffirms Jesus' implication that the OT was correct to say that "VENGEANCE IS MINE, SAITH THE LORD." I.e., vengeance (i.e., judgment) is, consistently with human intuition, an element of justice, which is an element of benevolence/rationality. Second, Paul quotes out of the Proverbs to show that the prophets (as well as the law if one looks closely enough) always acknowledged a place for suffering evil personally to minimize over-all suffering. That's what love does. But God is an avenger. And Rom. 13 says God's institution of government is just one such implementation of His vengeance.

Greg, there is no dilemma. You're reading Mt 5:39 out of context. The role of force is indeed limited for government (e.g., just war criteria) and even more so for individuals. The fact that the proper adjudication of when to use force is hard doesn't mean it is not part and parcel of wise living.


 

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 10/22/2012 9:21 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just to add to the discussion, if you get the chance, check out this vid. Excellent points made by both parties.

m.youtube.com/watch?feature=mhee&v=UkvYMX-kyRA


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

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Similitude
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   Posted 10/22/2012 6:13 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
For some reason I can't get the link to work.


 

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 10/22/2012 6:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sorry, ttry this.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkvYMX-kyRA&sns=em


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 10/24/2012 9:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wow...I don't know how you did it D. Trying to convince Greg of this and that. I'd have given up way in the beginning. Some arguments aren't so black and white. I get that. It's like they're based on nuance and probability and degree. But some stuff is pretty easy. It's pretty black and white. And of course one can see that something may be based on flawed methodology to begin with. This is how I see what is going on with regard to Greg and politics here: reknew.org/2012/10/a-response-to-tony-campolo-on-fighting-the-powers-part-i/. SMH


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

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Similitude
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   Posted 10/25/2012 6:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

 

Thanks for the last link. It works for me. I was able to get through the first lecturer so far. I liked what he said about the improbability of a purely pacifist Christian community prior to Constantine. I've always found such inferences to monolithic views for whole societies or regions highly suspect. It contradicts what recent research has well-established about the diversity of human cognitive and social styles. There is no reason to assume that diversity originated recently.


 

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Similitude
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   Posted 10/25/2012 6:06 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ah, just saw your comment about the Tony Campolo response. I read the first part of it and was just as awed. I hope to finish it. But it seems to me that Greg is creating an obvious false dichotomy to maintain his perspective.


 

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 10/25/2012 7:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here's a couple of issues I have with what Greg is saying here.

A. Satan is on par with God. All the Kingdoms of this world are Satan's which makes Satan a ruler. But I've always thought of this in terms of a box within a box. Pilate thinks he can determine whether to give or take life. But Jesus tells him that the authority he has is derived. ALL authority is derived authority. So Satan really doesn't have the authority Greg thinks he has.
B. Greg says:

"Second, while God uses governments to preserve law and order in our fallen world (Rom. 13: 1-7), and while God holds governments accountable for their injustices, I don’t think I can fully agree with Tony when he claims that, “t is the task of government…to do the will of God every bit as much as it is the task of the institutional church to do the will of God.” This makes it sound like the Church and government are on equal footing when it comes to carrying out God’s will. But as I read Scripture, the very fact that we have systems where some humans exercise power over others is already against God’s will."

This is where I have the most problem with what he says. I don't even like how he says this because its pretty vague. He says, "This makes it sound like the Church and government are on equal footing when it comes to carrying out God’s will."

What does that mean? On equal footing? That the Church is to be identified with government? That government is to be identified with the Church? Well of course they're separate but that is not to say that they don't over-lap in their activities ie., seeking and carrying out justice in the world. If, say, a part of government's responsibility is to seek justice for the poor then does it not do the will of God when it carries out this responsibility? I mean c'mon...


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 11/1/2012 12:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
juicyecumenism.com/2012/10/26/shane-claibornes-infantile-pacifism-part-1/

juicyecumenism.com/2012/10/30/shane-claibornes-infantile-pacifism-part-ii/


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

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Similitude
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   Posted 11/3/2012 1:37 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I went and re-read some of Greg on Tony. The false dichotomy I see is that he assumes Christianity is to out-do the government in societal good. I don't see that the NT even implies Christianity exists to out-do the government in accomplishing societal good. Rather, Christians are to do good because it's the right thing to do, regardless of how few Christians there are in the world or how much good the government does. Indeed, Christians are more than conquerors for Him who loves us even if their society leads them as sheep to the slaughter. Greg's post-millienialism seems to significantly obscure his perspective.

It seems to me that the only way post-millenialism could be consistent with open theism is if the attained latter state is not left to human volition. Otherwise, it could not be foreknown, could it? The only other alternative I can see is to posit that human societal improvement is a natural tendency. But I see no historical evidence of that. History seems perfectly consistent with the view that a little leaven leavens the whole lump, just as scripture indicates.


 

Post Edited (Similitude) : 11/3/2012 8:40:43 PM (GMT-5)

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