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saintpaulrez
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 20
| Posted 4/23/2004 11:14 PM (GMT -6) |   | I remember reading someone say that the God of open theism is a "user-friendly" God and I fully agree. He's been redesigned by men like Pinnock, Boyd, and Sanders and done so to suit the purposes of man. In other words, when it's hard to accept suffering, well, hey, now you don't have to 'cause "God didn't know it was going to happen" and it's like a "quick fix" or some sort of answer to the question of "Why did God allow this?" Well, for me, even if God was "surprised," still doesn't take the pain away. Still leaves lots of questions... probably more than before becuase then I'd wonder, "Why did God create a world that even He doesn't control?"
God doesn't work that way. We don't make Him who we want him to be or who we think he should be. I AM. That is who God is. He doesn't change and/or conform to our imaginations.
At one point in my time here before, I did (painfully) try to accept open theism beliefs. I wondered, okay, maybe God doesn't know the future (He "chooses" not to) and maybe He changes His mind, etc. but when I considered it all, it left me with far greater fear and despair then before. I remember thinking, "If this is true, I don't want it. I will just live a bleak life and not be able to believe in a God if He is this God the open theists say He is." Supposedly, open theism is supposed to make you feel better. Supposed to help you when your life gets messed up (like Susanne and her husband's affair in Boyd's book). Somehow open theism is supposed to "answer" all the tough questions and bring some sort of comfort.
It didn't for me. It never will. Open theism "scares" me. It scares me because I fear it spreading. I don't think it will. Too many people reject it. But it'll spread to those who are weak Christians and don't know God's Word. And they will live lives based on feelings. Creating a God as they want Him to be. I saw it with my own two eyes. I saw open theists who saw the God of their imaginations (not the God of the Bible) and now with this whole "imaginative prayer" stuff... it's just plain scary to someone like me who has seen people's imaginations and feelings cause them to do things they think God okays. I mean, heck, couldn't I imagine that God thinks it's okay for me to murder this person or jump off this bridge? Couldn't I imagine just like Boyd did a scene in which I jump off a bridge and God is right there with me, taking me to heaven, and it's all his will.
Sorry JoAnne, I don't mean to offend, and I will stop posting here. I truly have no reason to be here. I firmly reject open theism and as I said before, I will continue to write letters and talk to others of what I know and have experienced. I have spoken to many people, including pastors and others belonging to the ETS and others. I will continue. My testimony is very interesting & unique and is only support and "proof" to what others (like John Piper, John McArthur, Bruce Ware, Edwin Lutzer, J. I. Packer, Wayne Grudem, Robert Mohler, Mark Talbot, and other godly men) believe of the potential consequences/harm of open theism ruling a person's life. Not only my real-life testimony, but also my testimony of time spent here and some of the things said then (which I compiled together to share with others).
It's really not personal although I am, like I said, disgusted with the rudeness of some and I view it as a lack of spiritual fruit which to me, if that spiritual fruit were very evident, it would tell me that maybe open theism is a true theology. As it is, it's not evident.
Bruce Ware says: "To the extent that the openess model of God penetrates our churches, we can anticipate a greatly lessened confidence in God and a much greater temptation to trust in our own insights and abilities." That is EXACTLY what I saw and experienced first hand. The open theists in my life trusted in their own insights and abilities to the point of disregarding the Word of God, and they did so at great cost not only in this generation, but in generations to come.
I have nothing againt you Joanne, and I am not here to question your Christian faith. I do wholeheartedly reject open theism and will continue to share my time here and time at WHC, ineraction with Boyd and others. I want others to know.
I rememember telling a Christian friend... well, describing open theist beliefs, and he said, "Well, no wonder so-and-so did what he/she did!" Yep. And I didn't even have to say it. This person knew what these other people had done and when I described open theism, they saw right then and there that it had affected these people's belief systems to the point that they followed a God of their own making (or imagination) and not the God of Abraham.
Take care, God bless, and I will do my best to stay off the board here. I really have nothing left to say and don't need to keep upsetting everyone and know that I will if I continue to share my opinions/beliefs or my complaints.
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ohboy
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 2
| Posted 4/23/2004 11:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Mskee, basically what Mayflower is saying to you is that if you only knew me and who I am, you'd know that it's quite acceptable to treat me rudely, etc. After all, I do disagree with open theism and am very outspoken here.
Kinda like this comment on another post (written by a "regular" open theist, feelingahole) to a poster named spenlake-- of course, he's not open theist. If he was, he woudn't get this lovely reply: "YAWN! Get over it. You're ruining your objectivity and credibility. You took your shot. You think its an evil bad boook. You've make your point. Some agree, most disagree. You've run the race. Let it go. Move on with your life. Find another hobby."
(from the now banned saintpaul  )
The love here is overwhelming!
Take care!
(Moderator, You can ban this one too. I'm done. Thanks. ) | | Back to Top | | |
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ataraxia
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 67
| Posted 4/23/2004 11:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi all,
So I’m finally showing up! Actually, I read the opening post to this thread and thought, “How nice!” Then I read the first response and thought “I don’t need to even revisit this thread!” So I didn’t revisit until just now. When it went to two pages I thought to myself, “Now how nice can we really be to one another?”
Saintpaulrez (and ohboy), I am truly sorry for whatever hurt life has brought you and sorry to see you so angry. Open theists can be and have been mean to others just as believers of other theological persuasions.
There’s a time and a place for venting our frustrations and disappointments in a way that’s helpful to others and ourselves, and a way that’s not so helpful. And there will be times when we occasionally “lose it” and in doing so offend and hurt others. It happens. It seems to me, however, that you need some time to work through your anger so that posting and relating here can be done in a way that’s helpful to you and others. When you do that you’d be welcome to return.
God bless,
ataraxia | | Back to Top | | |
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lastly
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 2
| Posted 4/24/2004 11:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Ataxaria, This is "saintpaulrez" and I want to apologize to you for creating another name. I had wanted to reply to another man on another post-- it is void of anger, etc, and not a post re: any of my complaints of this site or certain posters. It is a good post.  I don't want to "sneak" around though under different names and give you my word that I am not going to create another name and continue posting. I do respect what you said and how you said it (and I was fully expecting it to happen soon and totally understand).
I also wanted to reply to what you wrote. I appreciate what you said and the graciousness with which you said it. Thank you. I am not upset to be "banned" and I will not post anymore after this one. I know that I can't joyfully be at this site and do so w/o feeling anger or offense at certain posters but I know that I only cause all sorts of bad feelings when I am here. If someday, I am able to more eloquently adn kindly express my feelings w/o anger, I will maybe try, but I probably won't come back anyways because there is not really any reason for me to and I don't want to be the constant never-ending troublemaker. I've never had as many people "hate" me as I have at this site. But I can see how that can happen when people don't know you in real life and when what you are saying is very negative/angry.
So anyways, thank you again. I was expecting you to also "expose" me and lecture me and tell me how horrid I've behaved, but you did not and you were very "professional" and neutral, yet caring, in what you said. Thank you for taking care of it (me!) w/o making a huge deal of it (and for not exposing my identity. It's okay with me if you do or did, but I think it says alot about you that you didn't and that you simply addressed me as a person, regardless of what name I might have now or have had in the past-- thanks).
God bless | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/24/2004 3:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lastly
Ataxaria, This is "saintpaulrez" and I want to apologize to you for creating another name. I had wanted to reply to another man on another post-- it is void of anger, etc, and not a post re: any of my complaints of this site or certain posters. It is a good post. I don't want to "sneak" around though under different names and give you my word that I am not going to create another name and continue posting. I do respect what you said and how you said it (and I was fully expecting it to happen soon and totally understand).
I also wanted to reply to what you wrote. I appreciate what you said and the graciousness with which you said it. Thank you. I am not upset to be "banned" and I will not post anymore after this one. I know that I can't joyfully be at this site and do so w/o feeling anger or offense at certain posters but I know that I only cause all sorts of bad feelings when I am here. If someday, I am able to more eloquently adn kindly express my feelings w/o anger, I will maybe try, but I probably won't come back anyways because there is not really any reason for me to and I don't want to be the constant never-ending troublemaker. I've never had as many people "hate" me as I have at this site. But I can see how that can happen when people don't know you in real life and when what you are saying is very negative/angry.
So anyways, thank you again. I was expecting you to also "expose" me and lecture me and tell me how horrid I've behaved, but you did not and you were very "professional" and neutral, yet caring, in what you said. Thank you for taking care of it (me!) w/o making a huge deal of it (and for not exposing my identity. It's okay with me if you do or did, but I think it says alot about you that you didn't and that you simply addressed me as a person, regardless of what name I might have now or have had in the past-- thanks).
God bless
Saintpaulrez/lastly,
You are not hated. Via con dios.
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 4/24/2004 8:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Since I was the one whose words have been quoted a couple of times out of context I thought I'd drop a note.
I am sorry. My point simply was that Spenlake, in my view, had gone over his position over and over again and there wasn't much to say on it and (in my view again), people might start turning him off. I do apologize to Spenlake because the words were harsh and, regrettably, are now being used by others to show how mean and unloving we open theists are. If so, then I sincerely apologize to all.
I would ask that perhaps it is time to response to Saint with prayer instead of words. Whatever him/her intensions, the result of her/him posts have been disrest and disquiet. I do not believe God would have us be that way. I do not believe God would want this.
I confess that I have not always been loving to those who have disagreed with me. I have not always been loving towards Mayflower, for instance (how truly ironic that we would be thought as the same person), when, as honorman, I was very rude towards her when she dared to disagree politically with me (as if God cares that much about politics!). I have also not done well even this very day towards Chris, nor Lee. I am passionate, but many times I have simply been a berator. I pray that you may be forgiving towards me.
Finally, Saint, you are right. I have not always acted loving towards you as well. My comments about prozac were uncalled for and I ask your forgivness.
God's grace, many times, cannot cover, it seems, what we won't let it cover. May this be a time of reflection...perhaps us open theists are quick to lash out. I don't know. But is seems very easy to be human and not always easy to be godly. | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 4/25/2004 1:45 PM (GMT -6) | |
.
Greetings, Brother (Feelin' a Hole; Honorable-man);
I am glad that you are here.
Welcome back.
I wish you could have been in church with me this morning;
Dr. Boyd preached an awesome sermon. (It's the second in a three-part series, which started on April 18th).
The entire message was inspirational; however, your grace & spirit of reconcilation brings to mind a particular point that Dr. Boyd made --regarding the way in which we interact (and react) to those whose views (in theology; or, politics, etc.) differ radically from our *individually held* views or beliefs.
THE DISCIPLES (I believe Greg referenced Peter and Simon as examples) were radically different from one another -- and yet, they shared a commonality that transcended their differences: they were both followers of Christ.
Are the "differences" the important thing??
No. The shared commonality is the only thing that matters. Only that is of Kingdom value.
I am glad -- that you are My Brother in Christ.
Thank you...
Peace & blessings,
<><
P.S.
I truly do love your new screen name.
As I mentioned previously -- it always reminds me the wisdom of Blaise Pascal, and the God-shaped hole that exists in each human being, which only Jesus Christ can fill.
quote:
Feelin'a Hole wrote:
Since I was the one whose words have been quoted a couple of times out of context I thought I'd drop a note.
I am sorry. My point simply was that Spenlake, in my view, had gone over his position over and over again and there wasn't much to say on it and (in my view again), people might start turning him off. I do apologize to Spenlake because the words were harsh and, regrettably, are now being used by others to show how mean and unloving we open theists are. If so, then I sincerely apologize to all.
I would ask that perhaps it is time to response to Saint with prayer instead of words. Whatever him/her intensions, the result of her/him posts have been disrest and disquiet. I do not believe God would have us be that way. I do not believe God would want this.
I confess that I have not always been loving to those who have disagreed with me. I have not always been loving towards Mayflower, for instance (how truly ironic that we would be thought as the same person), when, as honorman, I was very rude towards her when she dared to disagree politically with me (as if God cares that much about politics!). I have also not done well even this very day towards Chris, nor Lee. I am passionate, but many times I have simply been a berator. I pray that you may be forgiving towards me.
Finally, Saint, you are right. I have not always acted loving towards you as well. My comments about prozac were uncalled for and I ask your forgivness.
God's grace, many times, cannot cover, it seems, what we won't let it cover. May this be a time of reflection...perhaps us open theists are quick to lash out. I don't know. But is seems very easy to be human and not always easy to be godly.
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/25/2004 9:55 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mayflower
.
Greetings, Brother (Feelin' a Hole; Honorable-man);
I am glad that you are here.
Welcome back.
I wish you could have been in church with me this morning;
Dr. Boyd preached an awesome sermon. (It's the second in a three-part series, which started on April 18th).
The entire message was inspirational; however, your grace & spirit of reconcilation brings to mind a particular point that Dr. Boyd made --regarding the way in which we interact (and react) to those whose views (in theology; or, politics, etc.) differ radically from our *individually held* views or beliefs.
THE DISCIPLES (I believe Greg referenced Peter and Simon as examples) were radically different from one another -- and yet, they shared a commonality that transcended their differences: they were both followers of Christ.
Are the "differences" the important thing??
No. The shared commonality is the only thing that matters. Only that is of Kingdom value.
I am glad -- that you are My Brother in Christ.
Thank you...
Peace & blessings,
<><
P.S.
I truly do love your new screen name.
As I mentioned previously -- it always reminds me the wisdom of Blaise Pascal, and the God-shaped hole that exists in each human being, which only Jesus Christ can fill.
quote:
Feelin'a Hole wrote:
Since I was the one whose words have been quoted a couple of times out of context I thought I'd drop a note.
I am sorry. My point simply was that Spenlake, in my view, had gone over his position over and over again and there wasn't much to say on it and (in my view again), people might start turning him off. I do apologize to Spenlake because the words were harsh and, regrettably, are now being used by others to show how mean and unloving we open theists are. If so, then I sincerely apologize to all.
I would ask that perhaps it is time to response to Saint with prayer instead of words. Whatever him/her intensions, the result of her/him posts have been disrest and disquiet. I do not believe God would have us be that way. I do not believe God would want this.
I confess that I have not always been loving to those who have disagreed with me. I have not always been loving towards Mayflower, for instance (how truly ironic that we would be thought as the same person), when, as honorman, I was very rude towards her when she dared to disagree politically with me (as if God cares that much about politics!). I have also not done well even this very day towards Chris, nor Lee. I am passionate, but many times I have simply been a berator. I pray that you may be forgiving towards me.
Finally, Saint, you are right. I have not always acted loving towards you as well. My comments about prozac were uncalled for and I ask your forgivness.
God's grace, many times, cannot cover, it seems, what we won't let it cover. May this be a time of reflection...perhaps us open theists are quick to lash out. I don't know. But is seems very easy to be human and not always easy to be godly.
.
I started this thread with just this kind of thing in mind. Then it became sadly derailed. But I'm glad that it got turned around. God is always working, through His Spirit to bring good in every situation and this is evidence of that! All it takes is a listening ear and a willing heart. That is what discipleship is all about. Thanks for the inspiration!
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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