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Originally posted by moon_river_j

(I'm praying a special blessing tonight upon my brothers in Christ on this board)


Hi...you know who you are!

I was driving somewhere a couple of days ago (have been away for a day) and was thinking about the brothers that are on this board and how I appreciate their sensitivity and compassion and godly wisdom in handling sometimes sensitive subjects. I was keenly aware of this as we all talked with Tigress. It is wonderful as a sister to be able to share heartfelt things and know that not only will you not be judged, but that you will be treated compassionately and that the response comes from a heart for God.

So...God bless each one of you

Sinceremente Jo-Anne

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WHO ARE YOU Mayflower?? Are you a moderator? I don't mind being told by a mod. to get lost, but as far as I remember, you are not one and I have every right to be here or speak my mind, just like you do. You were very rude to me once before when I was here... every single time you ever spoke to me. When I think of your name, all I recall is rudeness. I am surprised that you have been less rude this time, but please don't tell me what to do. The mod. can. It doesn't matter to me. But, you have no place to tell me what to do. You are not an authority in my life. Sorry.

I'm sure in just a bit I'll be banned. Life goes on. :)
It'd be nice if you could read the things in my post and rather than feeling "sad," Listen to what I am saying! You might feel "sad" about what I wrote, but I am "sad" by the whole air on this site. It hasn't changed a bit and I don't think it ever will. I'm also sad that the people I know who are open theist, live lives dominated by their feelings and their misconceptions of God and as a result, they bring great sorrow and pain to both their own and to others lives. That is what truly makes me very, very sad.

I'm sad that if someone vocally and outspokenly disagrees with Greg Boyd or open theism, they are demeaned. I'm sad that when I went to Woodland Hills and it was discovered by some that I wasn't happy there, I was treated like some sort of leper. People literally acted like: "Gasp! You don't like Greg Boyd? You must be a heathen or something must be mentally wrong with you." I'm sad that I was even asked once if I was really a Christian because how could a "true" Christian not agree with every brilliant word out of Boyd's mouth? I'm sad that when I told some WHC friends that I went to John Piper's church and thought he was great, their jaws dropped and they literally gasped and looked at me like, "You traitor." I'm sad that when an open theist friend went with me to Piper's church and we heard a wonderful, meaty sermon, this friend pouted through the whole thing because it was the "other side" and the "enemy." .....


So, I come here, I disagree, I speak my mind, and "gasp"... I need to "go take Prozac," or I don't comprehend, or maybe I'm like those damn Calvinists who don't have a clue about who God really is. I'd rather be a Calvinist than an open theist who thinks they have the right to condemn.

Don't worry... I'm sure I won't be "allowed" here much longer. And you can go back to your happy little open theist world. And I can go back to praying that God will help me to forget the last few days I spent here....

I admire the disagreers who actually manage to have rational discussions with you. I notice thought that they are almost "too" polite and put up with alot of basically abusive things said to them (like, "You don't comprehend" or "you don't know what you're talking aobut). But it speaks very highly of them that they are able to discuss and overlook it.
I guess I am not a good enough Christian to do that. But don't worry, I already learned long ago that I am not a very "good" Christian because for one, I didn't like WHC, for two, I like John Piper, for three, I'm not open theist. I might as well be a savage heathen!
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Originally posted by saintpaulrez

WHO ARE YOU Mayflower?? Are you a moderator? I don't mind being told by a mod. to get lost, but as far as I remember, you are not one and I have every right to be here or speak my mind, just like you do. You were very rude to me once before when I was here... every single time you ever spoke to me. When I think of your name, all I recall is rudeness. I am surprised that you have been less rude this time, but please don't tell me what to do. The mod. can. It doesn't matter to me. But, you have no place to tell me what to do. You are not an authority in my life. Sorry.

I'm sure in just a bit I'll be banned. Life goes on. :) It'd be nice if you could read the things in my post and rather than feeling "sad," Listen to what I am saying! You might feel "sad" about what I wrote, but I am "sad" by the whole air on this site. It hasn't changed a bit and I don't think it ever will. I'm also sad that the people I know who are open theist, live lives dominated by their feelings and their misconceptions of God and as a result, they bring great sorrow and pain to both their own and to others lives. That is what truly makes me very, very sad.

I'm sad that if someone vocally and outspokenly disagrees with Greg Boyd or open theism, they are demeaned. I'm sad that when I went to Woodland Hills and it was discovered by some that I wasn't happy there, I was treated like some sort of leper. People literally acted like: "Gasp! You don't like Greg Boyd? You must be a heathen or something must be mentally wrong with you." I'm sad that I was even asked once if I was really a Christian because how could a "true" Christian not agree with every brilliant word out of Boyd's mouth?

Same thing here. I disagree, I speak my mind, and "gasp"... I need to go take Prozac, or I don't comprehend, or maybe I'm like those damn Calvinists who don't have a clue about who God really is. I'd rather be a Calvinist than an open theist who thinks they have the right to condemn.

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Originally posted by saintpaulrez

Tigress, I'm shocked that I'm still here (and not yet banned) and I'm truly surprised by your post because it's so neutral and honest, but without being offended by the things I've said. Thanks. :) I really appreciate you replying to my concerns without being rude and just talking to me like I'm a normal human being. I honestly don't recall ever receiving a reply like that here before (other than some of Joanne's initial posts. Well, and I think there were a few others from when I posted long ago, like Selah). You're both women, aren't you? I wonder if that has anything to do with it. Anyways, I'm sure I won't be allowed here much longer, but I don't really have a desire to become a permanent poster, but thanks again, Tigress. It means alot that you would actually acknowledge my opinions and not become offended or demean me. It's not easy to accept someone's differing opinions.

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....if they did actually write rude or condescending comments, they had not right to do that, and they should ask the Lord and you for forgiveness. It really ticks me off when people do that, and we all do that - I know I have a few times, unfortunately. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I'm listening to you and hearing you. Thanks for your honesty and candor. It's refreshing.

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Originally posted by Mayflower

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Greetings, saintpaulrez:

You are ver-r-r-r-r-r-ry welcome here, if you come in peace.
Being an Open Theist is not a prerequisite.

However, we will continue to defend our belief in Open Theism; Woodland Hills Church (the staff and congregation); other Christus Victor Ministries discussion-board members; and, Dr. Boyd when and/or if you attack them.

If this acceptable to you, then I'm sure that you will feel comfortable and welcome here.

Agreed?

Blessings,
<><

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For those of you who are new, please look at the other threads under mysticism and "Seeing is Believing" in the Board and OV forums.


I want to express my appreciation to Saintpaulrez for her observations and courage to address the pain and grief she and others experienced as the fruit of these teachings. I also want to sincerely thank those of this discussion board for their help in solidifying the strong parts of my arguments and making the weaker ones clearer. It has been very helpful and enabled me to hone the arguments which will be most effective to explain why this teaching is damaging. The responses that strayed from the subject into unsupported speculations concerning me or my motives helped highlight to me where the arguments were strongest and where they should be pursued.

It continues to amaze me the extent this board will go to defend a weak point. If truth were truly the main concern this would be different and the board would act differently. There are obviously some exceptions, but I believe that the outside witness of Saintpaulrez exposed real issues of concern. I found it amusing and amazing that there is a pro-OV philosopher Alan Rhoda that states that if certain premises of the logic of indterminancy are true, then the entire belief of the OV must be false and this is known by the OV elite.
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Alan says: As far as I can see, this argument is deductively valid. Moreover, all of the premises seem quite plausible. The conclusion, however, is a direct denial of the central tenet of open theism. So either open theism is false, or there is a faulty assumption in the argument. If there is a faulty assumption it would have to lie in one of the independent premises, namely (1), (2), (4), (5), (6), (9), or (10). But it is far from obvious which premise, if any, can be plausibly denied.
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If this is what is acknowledged by the OV elite, that they have yet to plug a potentially fatal hole, then the STRONG assertions that I have read here are just so much bluffing. It is too strong a defense to make for a conclusion that has such an open and exposed weakness left unanswered. This insecurity for ideas that are still “at risk” helps explain the “chip on the shoulder” mentality and how weak the OV actually is. Perhaps OVers cannot conceive of this, but to the rest of us it becomes more apparent. I believe that an objective review of the written record of this board goes far in supporting the observations of Saintpaulrez, when she states that OVers don’t really have as much a concern regarding the truth as they do their feelings, impressions, and personal prejudices about a god of their own making. This site documents committed OVers who refuse to believe in a god who would keep them single. We have others who refuse to believe in a God that would allow slavery and not call it sinful. We have others who refuse to believe in a god that casts deceiving Satan to earth. This partial overview is in stark contrast to the claim that OV believes in the God of scripture. In examining this site, we find much that supports Saintpaulrez’ conviction that OV really does promote a god of their imaginations.

This brings me to the last point and the one that I have spent the most time interacting with this board – “Seeing is Believing.” I have brought up a single point with a challenge that provokes personal attacks but continues to be ignored. The silence is deafening but speaks volumes. “Seeing is Believing,” is a must read for this board in that it provides spiritual exercises to meet with the god you’ve each been imagining, an opportunity to see him face to face. You can find gods that won’t let one be single, or express sovereignty over deceitful spirits. You can experience your “truth” though spirit inspired anti-events (substitute events), revel with your anti-christ (substitute Christ) and find extreme comfort in your spirit inspired delusion. Each of you can meet your imagined god face to face and find sincere, heart warming, comforting delusion to escape the painful tribulations and memories of this evil world. Based on the claims that are made there by your doctor, you will find also power to forgive and enter into the rest of your own christ as well. This is your gospel.

I hope that such shocking words impact your heads and hearts. This is what you risk losing in your responding to the challenge I have made to you. There has still not been one from this board that has presented scriptural support that God provides:
- spiritual truth
- the power of forgiveness
- healing
- and experiencing God Himself
through fictional anti-events inspired by the Holy Spirit. Your god and the path to him taught to you by your doctor hangs in the balance. Stand up and support it with scriptures like a man (woman) or repent and find freedom in the true gospel where forgiveness is experienced in believing the work of THE Christ on the cross. This experience of our own sins being truly forgiven enables us to forgive even cruel grandmothers and the pain they caused us. Those who believe in the true gospel have no need for fictitious anti-events for our freedom and forgiveness.

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.....I have posted a challenge that attacks Dr. Boyd's book and his beliefs.
I have openly defied him and the members of this board to defend his beliefs with scriptures on the thread http://www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3228

This challenge goes unanswered because it is undefendable.

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Originally posted by Mayflower

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Greetings, Sister:

YOU are the one we should thank.
Jo-Anne, we are all so 'thankful' that you have become a part of this board. I don't have time to post often -- but, each time I stop by & read your insightful and thought-provoking posts, I wish I could invite you over for a pot of coffee, and some "God talk".

I think we all sense that you are a 'kindred spirit'.
It 'feels' like we have known you for a ver-r-r-r-r-r-ry long time.

YOU have blessed our lives...!


God's peace to you; and,
those you love...
<><



P.S.
Advocacy is my "calling". (i.e., My way of serving GOD is by serving people with autism & other disabilities)...
Did you mention that you work with people with disabilities?
Someday, I would love to hear more about your work...


I'm a Minnesotan.
Let us know if you ever plan to be in the Twin Cities area.
I would be glad to take you to "visit" my church (Woodland Hills Church); and, treat you to a pot of the strongest coffee in the world!).


.



P.S.
CLARIFICATION:
My husband is the "Viking" (i.e., Norwegian) in our family.
I am a true 'Heinz 57-Variety' -- a little bit of everything!


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Originally posted by John Earp

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Originally posted by moon_river_j

(I'm praying a special blessing tonight upon my brothers in Christ on this board)


Hi...you know who you are!

I was driving somewhere a couple of days ago (have been away for a day) and was thinking about the brothers that are on this board and how I appreciate their sensitivity and compassion and godly wisdom in handling sometimes sensitive subjects. I was keenly aware of this as we all talked with Tigress. It is wonderful as a sister to be able to share heartfelt things and know that not only will you not be judged, but that you will be treated compassionately and that the response comes from a heart for God.

So...God bless each one of you

Sinceremente Jo-Anne

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Thanks, Jo-Anne.

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Originally posted by saintpaulrez

JoAnne,

Do you consider bashing Calvinists "respectful?" Or telling someone you don't know to "Go take your Prozac" or telling someone that "you can't comprehend well."

There is a MAJOR double standard in here. I don't see open theists being told to go take their Prozac or that they're arrogant or that they don't comprehend well. You all view each other as bright, humble, oh-so-loving people because of one reason and one reason alone... you all agree in your beliefs (open theist).

You can be mean as dirt, but it don't matter. You still applaud each other's rudeness and meaness.

WHY AREN'T THERE MORE NON OPEN THETIST IN HERE??????

Think about it! They come and (happily) leave. They don't stay. If they do, they have to totally suck up to you all (be super, super polite and sweet so not to step on your toes and be told how stupid or arrogant they are), or they speak their mind, get blasted, and after awhile, leave.

Sensitivity? Compassion? Towards WHOM? Towards each other. Not towards the "enemy" (i.e. Calvinists or opposers of open theism). Total double standard.

Pretty easy to love those who love ya back.

And please don't point the finger at me and say, "Yah, well, you're not very loving. What about you?" I've never claimed to be loving like you all have. Isn't it Boyd who preaches "outrageous love"? At least he did practically every single sermon I ever heard from him. But I still don't see it and I'm not holding my breathe that I ever will.

P.S. Mayflower, thanks for the "threats" over on the other thread. Are you a moderator? My mother? Hmmmm... All I remember is that you did the very same thing when I used to be here. Pop on, share a snide cut-down towards me, and leave. Thanks, but no thanks.

I suppose what I say here can be "controlled" (by a moderator) but NO ONE can "control" what I say off this board, and trust me, I have NOTHING good to say about Boyd, Woodland Hills, or this board, and I have made sure to share my experiences with others, MANY others, including writing letters to certain pastors, publishers, and others.

Whether or not I am edited, banned, disliked, etc., I really don't care. I have no desire to stay here permantly and be a part of this "community." I learned long ago that if I were to be a part of the "community," I'd have to submit to the open theist beliefs or shut my mouth, be all sweet, and let everyone bash me (kinda like POW continues to put up with, why I don't know, but that's his choice). None of that will change my beliefs or keep me from "warning" others. Many people haven't ever heard of open theism, and I have been able to tell them about it.

The only thing that would ever change my beliefs on open theism, would be if I actually saw the Spirit moving... love overflowing, a true and genuine concern for people (not just open theists, not just hurting, but even ENEMIES, like I am basically considered to you), not just the Sunday Woodland Hills praise and worship frenzy in which everyone "feels" loving. Feeling it and living it are two different things. I'm sorry, but in all honesty, I have NEVER seen anything in an open theist that attracted me to it. When I think open thiests, I think "rude" and "arrogant." I honestly do. I didn't feel that way until after being here. I didn't like the way feelings dominated some of the lives of person's I knew at WHC, and I did see some pure hatred in those people and even wondered if they were really Christians. But it was when I came here, that I really saw the ugliness.

I don't bash Boyd as a person, only the teachings of open theism. I don't bash WHC as a whole (I knew some fine people there) but the overall beliefs of the church, many of which are rooted in open theism which obviously makes sense since Boyd is pastor. I'll never forget going to a Wed. night prayer meeting thing in this church of however many thousands, and there were like 15-20 people there. Says alot.

I am very thankful that I no longer attend there, and I have the freedom as an American to go to a church of my choice and believe what I will believe. Open theism can't be forced on me (thank the Lord!). You obviously have that same freedom and I hope one day, you will be able to see that just because I disagree with you and your believes, doesn't mean you should "threaten" me about what I say or don't say. I have freedom of speech just like you and you are not in a place of authority in my life. So please don't tell me what to do or not to do. If the mod. does, fine, he's got the "authority" to kick me off the board and that I can handle. :) I don't expect I'll be "allowed" here for long. Se la vi.

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Originally posted by saintpaulrez

Oh, about this being about ideas, not people. Wouldn't that mean then that talking about John Calvin is wrong?? There's that good ol' double standard again.

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