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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 5/7/2004 2:05 AM (GMT -6) |   | Back before the invention of denominations... the PRIME concern of theology was not speculation or intellectual puzzles. Sure, there weree some places where academia was more strongly a part of the offorts of the church (like Alexexandria, Egypt with clament and Origin); but for the most part it was PASTORAL issues that drove theology (Like the two Gregories, Athanasius--as per the Incarnation and Basil--as per the Holy Spirit). The task of the Pastor is whats to watch. And the issue you raise is THE issue.
The "job" of the church, and the "task" of theology is to "make saints" -- that is to raise us up in the stature of Christ and fellowship with the Triune God.
Of course this NEVER left the church as its central core mission. Wasn't it Luther who wrote in his catechism man's purpose is to "Love God and Enjoy him forever."
May Christ dwell in you richly" is "IT."
Formation of Christ in us by the Spirit and development of God's character in us, in Greek, is simply "theosis." Of course WE only gain this character and this status of fellowship with the Trinity "by grace" whereas Christ is and has these by nature. But that "Christ dwell in you richly" is "IT."
See this website, and the series of pages: Christ dwell in you richly. Its user friendly.
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Its all about the Bible.
Some of the versus on one of the pages are:
quote:
- St. Paul says that we are made to be "filled with the fullness of ... God" (Ephesians 3:19).
- In John 17:22-23, Jesus prays: "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one...."
- "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich" (II Corinthians 8:9).
- "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus... But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you" (Romans 8:1, 9-11).
- "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him" (John 14:23).
- "...It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me..." (Galatians 2:20).
- When we unite ourselves unto Christ we become "transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord" (II Corinthians 3:18). "And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man" (I Corinthians 15:49).
- "For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God" (Colossians 3:3).
- "...Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27). When Christ dwells in us, His presence creates a unique "hope of glory." Describing this "hope of glory," C.S. Lewis wrote in his book "The Weight of Glory": "The promise of scripture may very roughly be reduced to five heads... firstly, that we shall be with Christ; secondly, that we shall be like Him; thirdly... that we shall have 'glory'; fourthly, that we shall in some sense be fed or feasted or entertained; and finally, that we shall have some sort of official position in the universe - ruling cities, judging angels, being pillars of God's temple."
- The author of Hebrews takes this a step further when he speaks of our share in or partaking "of the heavenly calling" (3:1), and he declares that we are made partakers of Christ and of the Holy Spirit. Finally, the Apostle Paul again affirms that those who rise in Christ will "put on" God's own incorruptible immortality.
- St. Paul speaks of the fullness of God's presence abiding in us, when he prays, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all" (II Corinthians 13:13).
- Psalm 82:6, which is quoted by Jesus in John 10:34 is another strong reference to theosis: "'I said, "You are gods"'?" We see in this verse that even in the Old Testament, which is the guardian of monotheism, the word "gods," which Jesus quotes, was applied to people. It speaks of the God-given potential of theosis.
On WMBI (Moody bible Radio recetnly, the inner city Black preacher TONY EVANS gave a great sermon.
He pointed out that all this is a work of the Spirit in us; not a mimickry of observed similarities to the Fruit of the Spirit, by us for us. This is -- that "Fruit" -- something done BY GOD. And that's your question. As in the Scripture above, your job is to be baptised, and (figuratively speaking) rebaptize yourself daily in confession both individually and in church. "Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy on me a sinnner!"
Blessings~ | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/7/2004 11:24 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I'm looking forward to your response. I think this would make a good message.
I would be happy to answer your questions especially if you might use my reflections to preach the message to others about renewing of the mind and transformation. I believe some people live within a matrix and are missing a huge part of what it means to rest in Christ.
1. How does He renew YOUR mind?
The Holy Spirit renews my mind by leading me to truth. Sometimes this is done through a similar exercise as Dr. Boyd described in his book. Sometimes this is done through having an "Aha!" moment such as hearing a song that touches my inner heart or reading a bible passage that hits me at my core being. Whenever I enter into praise and worship I am drawn into focusing on God and in doing so I am strengthened -- I totally believe that "The joy of the Lord is my strength" I firmly believe that when we let go of our worries and cares to worship God, Satan loses his grip. These are some ways the Holy Spirit leads me to renewing my mind.
2. How does transformation take place in YOUR life?
Transformation takes place one day at a time. God slowly and patiently walks with me each day and every once in a while I have an "Aha!" moment that transforms me deep within. For example, I just experienced an "Aha!" moment on a different thread by coming to an understanding that one method doesn't work for everyone in the healing process. I may have just assumed that what works for me would work for everyone. Sometimes I have to keep my heart open to hearing another before I finally "get it" and come to understand a different view than my own. Sometimes this leads me to being transformed. In my opinion when we listen to others with an open heart and mind I believe we are loving them the most and I believe this love can transform us to understanding.
I may have an idea about something but it doesn't really make an impact until it sinks deep within. As my eyes are open to the truth and to loving others with their differences, I find that I am slowly being transformed into the person God created me to be. I am slowly learning to love other people right where they are at and accept that God has each person on their own journey to transformation and that this journey may look very different than my own.
3. How do you experience "resting in Christ"?
I experience "resting in Christ" when I am led to the truth of the bible. Satan tries very hard in my life to discourage me and tell me that I am not "good enough" but the bible tells me I am God's child. Satan tries to tell me that I've failed but the bible tells me that I am forgiven. Satan tries to make me feel anxious and worried but the bible tells me to "cast ALL my cares on him" These are some examples of how the truth helps me to rest. When I know that God calls me his own, that God forgives me right away, that God cares for me... I can rest and embrace his love for me. The truth leads me to a place of understanding God's love.
I hope these answers give you some ideas for a message.
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 5/8/2004 5:32 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 5/8/2004 5:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
[quote]...through having an "Aha!" moment
THIS I'M NOT AS COMFORTABLE WITH. CHECK IT AGAINST THE SCRIPTURE VERSES BULLET-POINTED ABOVE.
3. How do you experience "resting in Christ"?
I experience "resting in Christ" when I am led to the truth of the bible.
THIS GETS A TWO-THUMBS-UP "AMEN!"
SCRIPTURE, PRAYER (NOT IMAGINATION), AND "ASCESSIS" OR SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINE/DISCIPLESHIP.
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/8/2004 8:20 AM (GMT -6) | | POW, my "Aha!" moment is something that brings me closer to God and to truth. My "Aha!" moment is what I read in the bible as the blind can see, the captive is set free, deaf ears are opened. When my spiritual eyes are opened I experience a touch from the Holy Spirit and then I know that a shackle has been removed, a chain has been broken, my ears have been opened. I know that God heals us inside and out.
What do you think, POW? | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 5/8/2004 5:04 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
POW, my "Aha!" moment is something that brings me closer to God and to truth. My "Aha!" moment is what I read in the bible as the blind can see, the captive is set free, deaf ears are opened. When my spiritual eyes are opened I experience a touch from the Holy Spirit and then I know that a shackle has been removed, a chain has been broken, my ears have been opened. I know that God heals us inside and out.
What do you think, POW?
My "aha"s are like this: "Count it all joys my brethren when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing...produces...and let...its perfect effect...that..." (Romans 5) | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/8/2004 5:47 PM (GMT -6) | | Powquote:
My "aha"s are like this: "Count it all joys my brethren when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing...produces...and let...its perfect effect...that..." (Romans 5)
True. Sometimes the trials and tests lead us to growth. Sometimes we experience growth through the working of the Holy Spirit removing a blinder that once withheld the truth. EVERYTHING we encounter must be tested and backed by the bible. God moves and works in each of our lives individually but PLEASE hear me say that the bible must back every belief we hold true. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 5/9/2004 4:28 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/9/2004 8:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
I hope these answers give you some ideas for a message.
Quest,
Thank you for taking the time to give such thoughtful answers. I have so many questions about transformation - for my own life as well as others. Why do some go through such painstakingly slow transformation (that we can see)? Some struggle and never seem to gain victory in their walk while others are obviously being transformed. Is it "us?" (our response). Is it the "prince of Persia" (as in Daniel 10)? Or a combo?
Quest, I am beginning to believe that there is a direct corelation between healing and transformation in our lives and having a correct view of the Father. If our theology is skewed (as Job and his friends were), then we will not only have an incorrect view of the Father, but we will not understand who we are in Him, because everything He is, we are and all that is His, is ours. If you don't get that, then you are being transformed, but not into the truth.
I'm still trying to grasp all of this. I have a friend who recently said that we are transformed even as we sleep. Never thought of that.
Thank you for your thoughts on this. I need all the insights I can get!
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 5/10/2004 12:18 AM (GMT -6) | | Cool, Joanne.
It works the other way too: that hardness of heart can affect our framing of true ideas. Works both ways, I think. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/10/2004 6:50 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
[ Sometimes the trials and tests lead us to growth. Sometimes we experience growth through the working of the Holy Spirit removing a blinder that once withheld the truth.
I find a corelation in spiritual transformation and humbling one's self. I never realized that pride was sin. I thought what we needed was to try harder. I find this paradoxical; as I die to self, God is able to transform me, and mold me into the man I am meant to be. Pain helps test us and turn us toward the truth. Life may be a "Job story" for us all. Is he our example, our model for transformation? Or, can we be transformed while whistling our way through the park? I am interested in hearing what others experience.
Peace,
Mark
[Pain] removes the veil; it plants the flag of truth within the fortress of a rebel soul. -- C.S. Lewis --The Problem of Pain
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/10/2004 4:36 PM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne quote:
Why do some go through such painstakingly slow transformation (that we can see)? Some struggle and never seem to gain victory in their walk while others are obviously being transformed. Is it "us?" (our response). Is it the "prince of Persia" (as in Daniel 10)? Or a combo?
I believe that transformation is equal to healing. We need to participate with God for transformation yet sometimes it doesn‘t happen as quickly as we‘d like and other times it happens quickly. I have often wondered why. One time I asked God and he told me this simple yet profound thing -- He said, “Sometimes I heal and sometimes I don’t” Seriously, those words are so simple yet so true. Jesus didn’t heal everyone in the bible. I believe there is a reason for every purpose under heaven.
Sparknheart quote:
I find a close relationship to spiritual transformation and humbling ones self. I never realized that pride was a sin. I always thought we just had to try harder. I find it paradoxical now, but the more I die to my self then the more God can transform and mold me into the man I was meant to be.
I believe that the end result of healing, miracles, transformation to God’s truth… are all to glorify the Father in heaven. I believe the more we die to self and surrender to the Holy Spirit, the more we can become the child of God we were created to be. Dying to self and love go hand in hand. When we realize it’s not about a win/lose situation with people but rather a servant heart that God wants us to have, we then can begin to love people as we are taught to do. Jesus told his disciples to wash each others feet. Jesus wants us to have a humble heart. We are to walk humbly with our God. I agree, Mark, tying harder is a prideful thing to do because it ends up being about us and not about our heavenly father.
Might-be-don quote:
a change of variables or coordinates in which a function of new variables or coordinates is substituted for each original variable or coordinate.
I like the math! Math is the universal language.
I believe it’s like a love relationship. The more the lover comes to understand the loved, the more the lover is able to love their beloved. The closer we get to experiencing God’s love for us, the more our lives can be transformed.
Might-be-don, you are on your own journey with the lover of your soul. Each person is transformed as at their own pace. Again I say sometimes God works quickly but not all the time.
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/11/2004 3:13 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Why do some go through such painstakingly slow transformation (that we can see)?
I am beginning to believe that there is a direct corelation between healing and transformation in our lives and having a correct view of the Father.
Jo-Anne
Has pain helped test you and turn you toward the truth of God's love? Do you find a little Job in your life? Would you be as close to God today with out the painful experiences?
Peace,
Mark
quote:
[Pain] removes the veil; it plants the flag of truth within the fortress of a rebel soul. -- C.S. Lewis --The Problem of Pain
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/11/2004 11:14 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Why do some go through such painstakingly slow transformation (that we can see)?
I am beginning to believe that there is a direct corelation between healing and transformation in our lives and having a correct view of the Father.
Jo-Anne
Has pain helped test you and turn you toward the truth of God's love? Do you find a little Job in your life? Would you be as close to God today with out the painful experiences?
Peace,
Mark
quote:
[Pain] removes the veil; it plants the flag of truth within the fortress of a rebel soul. -- C.S. Lewis --The Problem of Pain
Mark,
Probably not. Tonight was painful. It was a test of my ability to "take the high road" when I was wronged. It is something to take to the Father and explore with Him. So, yes, pain draws me to the Father and when we draw near to Him, He draws near to us. That is His promise, and I've found it to be one that never fails me. Tried, tested, and true. And where He is, there is truth, and freedom.
I'm not a rebel soul tonight, but I still find truth in Him (and love immeasurable).
'Nite and God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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msekee
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 30
| Posted 5/12/2004 10:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne -
It is so amazing to me that the first time I've read posts in a while you mention the same verse I've been dwelling on for weeks. I keep thinking that Christians are taught what to DO instead of what to BE and I relate that to the verse about being renewed by the transforming of our minds. I really like the way The Message translates some verses in Romans - like this one: "God does not respond to what we do; we respond to what God does. We've finally figured it out. OUr lives get in step with God and all others by letting him set the pace, not by proudly or anxiously trying to run the parade." (3:28). That says a lot to me. It's not us battling our "old self" - it's embracing what God is doing in our lives. It's not knowing what Christians should and shouldn't do, it's living every minute of every day constantly embracing God's ways. Resting in the knowledge that He's doing the work. Think of it this way, David was said to be a man after God's own heart - yet he commited adultery and had a man killed. We will most likely never mess up that badly - but to be a man after God's own heart is not about what we do or don't do - it's about our hearts. David loved God. David desired for his whole life to be pleasing to God. That's what it's all about in my opinion. It's so sad to me that most Christians would rather learn a list of behaviors and discuss how this verse or that verse is important to them - than to really embrace the work of the spirit in their lives. IT's easier - and it's so much more meaningful - but it requires that we change our whole way of thinking. There's a verse in Mark about to those who have much, more will be given, but to those who have little, even that which they have will be taken from them. My commentary had a really interesting way of explaining it. It said to think of our knowledge of God as pieces of a puzzle spread out over a field. The people who try to find all they can will find even more with God's help, but the people who are happy with their 2-3 pieces will never get teh whole picture. We may all end up in heaven - but we'll miss the point of life here on earth. | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/12/2004 12:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Annequote:
Thanks everyone for your insights and the discussion. I'll work on the message and share it with you when it's ready, if you like
Your welcome! I look forward to reading the message you write when it's ready. Thank you for asking us here for our answers to those questions
msekeequote:
It's so sad to me that most Christians would rather learn a list of behaviors and discuss how this verse or that verse is important to them - than to really embrace the work of the spirit in their lives.
I think many people are doing the best they can with what they've been taught and the philosophy they've grown up with. I believe the Spirit moves through many means and one such mean is through the Word. We are to test the fruit produced by the Word of God. I do agree with you that it is sad when a person is tormented by believing that they can earn their way to God's love and forgiveness. Do you have a testimony of how the Spirit has moved in your life that you would like to share? I love hearing how God is working and moving among his people. | | Back to Top | | |
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msekee
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 30
| Posted 5/14/2004 10:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quest for truth
When I saw the quote you pulled from my post my first reaction was "did I really say that?" I certainly do not want to take away from God's word and it's power - even when used piece-meal. It just seems that so many of us are satisfied with little nuggets of Christianity and spend all our time and energy trying to figure out what is the appropriate Christian way of doing each thing that we do - instead of "embracing the work of the spirit within us".
What I mean by that is to realize that God's goodness is already inside us. We just need to live in a way that is consistent with what we already know and believe.
You asked for a personal example. I'm not sure what I can come up with except that I've found that there is a difference between a five minute nugget where you go home saying "yeah - that's what it's all about" feeling good about your faith, and when you are reading a book from the Bible - every chapter and verse - and you slowly, really slowly, start to realize that this isn't what you thought it was. It doesn't say what you thought it always said.
I think it comes down to being open minded enough to not dismiss automatically everything that doesn't sound quite right. I heard Jay Bakker (Jim & Tammy Faye's son) speak at a conference last fall and at first I thought I didn't agree with anything he said. But the more I weighed it against scripture and just thought about it more - I realized that I did agree with him - and I learned a lot from his talk.
I guess I am saying that the things we're not sure of - that God's word and spirit can really use to change us - we often dismiss immediately because we prefer to think we already know it all and like to hear verses and sermons to confirm that.
I'm sure I'm probably not making any sense - and it is entirely possible that it's because I'm just a bit anti-church right now as we have resigned from our church under not so great circumstances. My challenge right now is to keep my eyes on my own relationship with God and not to worry or get angry about what other people's relationship with God should be.
Jo-Anne
Where in the Yukon are you? We'll be travelling through in July to move back to Wisconsin.
Karen | | Back to Top | | |
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