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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/8/2004 9:03 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
Spen: I agree, the book does reflect on something. But what would that be? If I could find a like book written by a reformed Christian would you be as critical as you are about open theism? Many Christians have written in the area of mystisicm. Some are wrong. That certainly doesn't mean their theology is wrong, but rather it may be their application of it. Again, though, you seem to be implying that Doctor Boyd's mysticism springs from his open theism. I would say, rather, that it would proably spring from his desire to grow closer to God (and help others do the same). The book is not about open theism.
Hi Feelinahole,
I agree with you on Dr Boyd's intent...it is to encourage the believer to live from his/her true nature. Prayer should be experienced as vital, living, breathing...exciting...life changing, not monotonous.
The key is that imagination be inspired by the Holy Spirit. Why would he create us with it if it could not be used for Him? He is an imaginative, creative God...we've not talking human imagination - but inspired!
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/9/2004 1:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Feelinahole, quote:
Spen: I agree, the book does reflect on something. But what would that be? If I could find a like book written by a reformed Christian would you be as critical as you are about open theism? Many Christians have written in the area of mystisicm. Some are wrong. That certainly doesn't mean their theology is wrong, but rather it may be their application of it. Again, though, you seem to be implying that Doctor Boyd's mysticism springs from his open theism. I would say, rather, that it would proably spring from his desire to grow closer to God (and help others do the same). The book is not about open theism.
I don't believe that there are good and bad flavors of mysticism - they are all bad. I come from a background of Christianity that embraced these beliefs. From what I observe and read, I also agree with Moon River, Dr. Boyd's intent is noble, loving, and only wants to bring people to God and heal their pain. This issue of "intent" however, isn't the measure or standard to look at. I would even say that the most sincere and loving people have the greatest potential to lead us into error that they truly believe. I think that the false prophets in Matt 7:23 who worked miracles and cast out demons in Jesus' name were sincere and had good intentions, so much so they really believed that Jesus was their Lord. He expelled them for eternity. In contrast we see Paul rejoicing in Philippians 1: 14 that there were even those who preached the gospel maliciously to harm Paul. quote:
most of the brethren, trusting in the Lord because of my imprisonment, have far more courage to speak the word of God without fear. Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will; the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice
I promise you that if you believe the miracle working false prophets with good intentions you will be damned with them and if you believe the message of the men Paul speaks of preaching from envy, selfish ambition and malicious intent, you will find life eternal.
Feelinahole, Jesus is and never was "mystical" to expereince or find through some spiritistic method. He was flesh and spoke real words to men who heard them with real ears. This message was so important to communicate that God became man to speak to us and communicate the words of the Father - that no man has ever seen. This man, whom we only know through what is written, explained the Father to us. He chose certain men to observe Him, hear his words, and write them down for us - in a written record. The last of these, John, died and there are no more objective witnesses. The Holy Spirit and spirits continue to influence and bring thoughts to us subjectively. The only measure as to whether it is the Holy Spirit or spirits is 1 John 4. This "Jesus coming in the flesh" brings us right back to the objective message that a man did and witnessed by men. The Holy Spirit brings us back to the Word and gives life to us and enables us to understand and believe it.
Spen Lake
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 4/9/2004 5:17 AM (GMT -6) | | | SPen: one could easily describe that Jesus's relationship with his father was mysticical, granting that Jesus has an "experience" with and of his father. Sounds like you are just down on anything that is described by that word. As such, why aren't you questioning others about their beliefs, if you feel there is such evil surrounding the word? Again, it isn't open theism that you are at battle with here. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/9/2004 5:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Feelinahole,
Jesus' relationshp with the Father was NOT mystical, but factual. If it wasn't factual then He is a liar. Mysticism is exactly what it wasn't. Jesus' relationship to the Father was unique and He knew Him. quote:
John 6:46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
quote:
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
quote:
1 John 1:2 we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.
quote:
John 14:9 Jesus said* to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? “Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. “Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.
quote:
John 8:38“I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”
Jesus OBJECTIVELY knew the Father from the beginning. He was physically with him. He claimed to reveal Him in His flesh and in His words during His time among men as a man. John claims that because he (John) has seen and touched and heard tangible words with his ears to know, and understand the man Jesus (in the flesh) that if we belive in his (John's) message that he is writing, we too can have fellowship with them. quote:
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.
John writes words in black and white to encourage us in the man that he saw and who was God. We have fellowship because we believe this written objective witness of John concerning one we have not seen.
Spen Lake
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/9/2004 5:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Regarding teens and theology,
My wife is reading a book titled "Daughters from Another Path." In it are about 50 interveiws with young American women, most of whom grew up in the church, and how they left Christianity for Islam. The startling part about it is the most common denominator: Most of these women left because their questions were never answered. I found that "Letters from a Skeptic" answered so many of the questions that plague young(and old) people's minds. If they don't wrestle with these issues before college, then they have a very slim chance of keeping their faith. Most of these women were in college too.
Wahoo | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 4/9/2004 9:37 AM (GMT -6) | | | It was a factual relationship but there were certainly things within it that would have been mystical to those around him. Certainly the disciples (and us) do not fully understand the relationship. I do not see the either/or situation you want to make it out to be. Jesus's relationship was, of course, unique and therefore was otherworldly and is to all of us. Mystical doesn't preclude it being factual. God, in a great sense, is mystical. We don't understand everything about him. Prayer, in a great sense, is mystical. Explain how it works to a stranger. Explain why someone should do it. There are many great mysteries surrounding the Christian life. Simply proclaiming that Jesus' relationship with the Father was factual doesn't take that away. Or its mysticism. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/9/2004 7:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Feelinahole, quote:
Spen: I agree, the book does reflect on something. But what would that be? If I could find a like book written by a reformed Christian would you be as critical as you are about open theism? Many Christians have written in the area of mystisicm. Some are wrong. That certainly doesn't mean their theology is wrong, but rather it may be their application of it. Again, though, you seem to be implying that Doctor Boyd's mysticism springs from his open theism. I would say, rather, that it would proably spring from his desire to grow closer to God (and help others do the same). The book is not about open theism.
I don't believe that there are good and bad flavors of mysticism - they are all bad. I come from a background of Christianity that embraced these beliefs. From what I observe and read, I also agree with Moon River, Dr. Boyd's intent is noble, loving, and only wants to bring people to God and heal their pain. This issue of "intent" however, isn't the measure or standard to look at. I would even say that the most sincere and loving people have the greatest potential to lead us into error that they truly believe. I think that the false prophets in Matt 7:23 who worked miracles and cast out demons in Jesus' name were sincere and had good intentions, so much so they really believed that Jesus was their Lord. He expelled them for eternity. In contrast we see Paul rejoicing in Philippians 1: 14 that there were even those who preached the gospel maliciously to harm Paul. quote:
most of the brethren, trusting in the Lord because of my imprisonment, have far more courage to speak the word of God without fear. Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will; the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice
I promise you that if you believe the miracle working false prophets with good intentions you will be damned with them and if you believe the message of the men Paul speaks of preaching from envy, selfish ambition and malicious intent, you will find life eternal.
Feelinahole, Jesus is and never was "mystical" to expereince or find through some spiritistic method. He was flesh and spoke real words to men who heard them with real ears. This message was so important to communicate that God became man to speak to us and communicate the words of the Father - that no man has ever seen. This man, whom we only know through what is written, explained the Father to us. He chose certain men to observe Him, hear his words, and write them down for us - in a written record. The last of these, John, died and there are no more objective witnesses. The Holy Spirit and spirits continue to influence and bring thoughts to us subjectively. The only measure as to whether it is the Holy Spirit or spirits is 1 John 4. This "Jesus coming in the flesh" brings us right back to the objective message that a man did and witnessed by men. The Holy Spirit brings us back to the Word and gives life to us and enables us to understand and believe it.
Spenlake...what does mysticism involve in your opinion? How does it differ from supernatural?
Thanks and God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/10/2004 3:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne,
You asked my opinion ,
"Spenlake...what does mysticism involve in your opinion? How does it differ from supernatural?"
I believe that there are several facets. If people believe that I am against the supernatural because I am writing against mysticism, I understand the disagreement. I believe in the supernatural and, moreover, someone who didn't believe in the supernatural couldn't be a Christian in that the foundation of our faith is a supernatural act of the resurrection. I believe in a spiritual "dimension" which interacts with our natural/physical one in ways that are "super" natural or over-natural. In saying this, I don't limit it to interaction only with "good" spirits but "spirits." This interaction can have two manifestations: subjective and objective.
The objective manifestations would be "signs" or "miracles" that occur in which men with their senses experience the interaction, one with witnesses that observe it tangibly. This could be the healing of a blind man, the calming of a storm, the transportation of a body (like Philip), the resurrection from the dead. We see and experience what is beyond the natural because the spiritual has intervened.
The subjective manifestations are "internal" or personal. They cannot be verified or witnessed to by others. I am not at all saying that they don't exist. I strongly believe that they do and I believe that a subjective faith is a critical part of a Christian's life. It is experienced but it can't be directly proven to witnesses through their senses. We must take someone's word for it.
I believe that Christianity allows for and includes spiritual subjective experiences. This is NOT what I define as mysticism. I believe that Scriptures document many of these such as Peters trance in Acts, the numerous visions people saw, prophets speaking what spirits spoke to them. This is not mysticism. A subjective spiritual experience itself is not mysticism. Mysticism is the pursuit of these spiritual experiences through some technique or method. Instead of coming or arriving upon an individual, they become a goal that is sought in ways that are illegal. I don't believe Scripture says "methods" are neutral and that “spirituality is good.” There is a damaging teaching concerning "spirituality" which says that methods are neutral and somehow purports that methods of the occult somehow have a parallel "good" method to experience God. This may be a nice idea, but is it contrary to Scripture. It is actually obvious, even from a cursory view. Where is Christian "necromancy?" (Rick Joyner practices this in his books the Final Quest and Call when he goes to heaven and interviews dead saints. His book is very popular.) Where is the Christan Ouija board? Where is Christian astrology? Where is Christian “liver reading?”
Mysticism is the practice of a technique not given to us in the Bible to obtain a subjective spiritual experience. The fact that Peter experienced a trance is different that using historical methods that the pagans have developed to go into trances. People may believe they are the same, but I don't believe that Scriptures do. Spiritism is forbidden in the Old Testament and this continues in the New. The spirit that Paul cast out of the girl in Acts 16 was literally a spirit of "pythos." The "pythos" was the oracle of Delphi in temple of Apollo. This girl was "accurate" but it was wrong and not confessing Jesus who came in the flesh, nor His work on the cross. I spent my life in Charismatic circles where this girl's revelation would have been considered a "word of knowledge." Here we see Paul cast it out as evil.
Dr. Boyd, in his book, "Seeing is Believing" is eloquent and accurate at the futility of "trying harder" to grow spiritually. Those of us who have tried this approach will resonate with his observations. It is futile and I have no issue with his description of this problem. I have great concern for the "solution" that he teaches. Dr. Boyd outlines a technique and method to achieve spiritual experiences. This is mysticism, and I believe that Scripture condemns this as sin. I have no doubt that Dr. Boyd truly believes that he is right and that he wants to help people. He is both sincere and has a more godly life than mine. However, Scriptures don't support him and the method is NOT neutral but dangerous.
I believe in the supernatural and the interaction of spirits with us subjectively. The Holy Spirit is still at work and the gifts of the Spirit are still given and enjoyed. But we are commanded in 1 John 4:1 not to believe every spirit and given an objective test to measure them by. The test is not that they deny Christ. The test is that they don’t confess Him and His ministry in the flesh. The Holy Spirit is not a “spiritual Jesus” that we build with our imaginations.
Spen Lake
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msekee
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 30
| Posted 4/10/2004 1:12 PM (GMT -6) | | | I only wish that the elder board at our church and especially our pastor was as willing to talk about this like spenlake. I appreciate the fact that he has read the books and admits that they have some merit. I also appreciate that he looks at these things as secondary. We were just handed a 3 inch binder for a meeting next week filled with articles condemning open theism as heresy and as an attack on the very nature of God. Yes - I believe some people believe that Greg Boyd is so wrong he cannot possibly even be a Christian. All I keep thinking is Who am I to know the mind of God?? Maybe Boyd's right - maybe not. But when people start assuming they can really know what a man's intentions are - that truly worries me. | | Back to Top | | |
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msekee
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 30
| Posted 4/13/2004 8:50 AM (GMT -6) | | DLW -
thanks for the offer. Unfortunately, they aren't interested in even presenting anything that might be seen as supportive of open theism. My father-in-law has been in ministry for forty years and was a pastor at a BGC church in Wisconsin when all this controversy began. While he was at first "concerned" about Boyd's views, after reading "Is God to Blame?" and especially "God at War" he has become more intrigued. He offered to give historical and theological defenses for a few different views, not just open theism, and they weren't interested. They really see it as a false teaching and the only reason for looking into it at all is to be aware of just how evil and wrong and dangerous it is. It's becoming more and more clear to us that we just don't belong here.... | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 4/13/2004 11:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by msekee
DLW -
thanks for the offer. Unfortunately, they aren't interested in even presenting anything that might be seen as supportive of open theism. My father-in-law has been in ministry for forty years and was a pastor at a BGC church in Wisconsin when all this controversy began. While he was at first "concerned" about Boyd's views, after reading "Is God to Blame?" and especially "God at War" he has become more intrigued. He offered to give historical and theological defenses for a few different views, not just open theism, and they weren't interested. They really see it as a false teaching and the only reason for looking into it at all is to be aware of just how evil and wrong and dangerous it is. It's becoming more and more clear to us that we just don't belong here....
Yeah, seems like that is the case. Like I said before, OVTheism does challenge some suppositions of both Armenianism/Calvinist theology and illustrates the fallible nature of historic USAmerican theology, how it isn't just straight from the Bible but is based on us reconciling our received world-views with the Bible. And so you have competition over social-status among neo-evangelicals and many who can't handle having something taken as datum for so long being subject to intellectual contention.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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msekee
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 30
| Posted 4/13/2004 12:03 PM (GMT -6) | | Tigress
What we've found to be true in the two churches we've been at is that people hold beliefs that are often conflicting with each other. They say God is in control, but they say we have to choose, but they also say we need to pray and that prayer changes things. No thought process goes into it, and the really sad thing is that we haven't seen much encouragement to think about it. I just got an e-mail from friends struggling with a baby who has brain damage. They had always held that life was for God to take, end of story. Now they have to decide about do not recussetate (okay, i have no idea how to spell that) orders etc. and they are freaking out. We have discipleship classes at our church and they go through books like "Wild at Heart". How will Christians ever learn what the Bible says about important issues, or even what they believe themselves unless they talk about it? I think that's our problem. We were trying to take the young people to a level the parents weren't even comfortable going to. I hope the Christian community at large isn't as complacent in their ignorance as the churches we've been to. It's frightening. | | Back to Top | | |
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/14/2004 7:48 AM (GMT -6) | | I think ever since 9/11 it has become apparent to me that most church leaders are comatose. But I have seen much more activity on the part of the laity. There is another thread that was speaking on failures of churches to meet the changes. Its like church is stuck in its glory days, somewhere back in the 50's, 60's or 70's. I don't know what this means for the future but the trend is that the mega churches keep building bigger buildings and the smaller churches(even they are still building buildings) are just useless. I think that Revelations, "Let them who have ears hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches..." especially Laodicea, is in effect here.
I 'm not spreaking for ALL churches... but there is something wrong.
Go and vote on this topic:
www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3190
Wahoo | | Back to Top | | |
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msekee
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 30
| Posted 4/14/2004 10:18 AM (GMT -6) | | In our first church, it wasn't the staff that was complacent. Our pastor did a sermon series based on the book "30 days to understanding what Christians believe". Most of the people just didn't care. They figured that they were saved and so they just came to church to be entertained. At the church we're at now the pastor came out and said that his philosophy of ministry is to get people to come, and then get them to serve (especially since if they are serving they are more likely to come). Knowing what we believe, why and how that affects our lives doesn't seem to be something many Christians desire and it isn't stressed from the pulpit at most places either.
And yes, I think the strong influence of Calvinism has played into this because people that accept the surface beliefs of Calvanism tend to get very fatalistic. "Whatever is supposed to happen will happen" kind of attitude.
I recently read a book called "Adventures in Missing the Point; How the culture controlled church has neutered the Gospel". It really pointed out a lot of things the church does that has nothing to do with the Church's original purpose.
It seems like all we dwell on as Christians now is how bad the outside world is - especially how bad American culture is becoming. I don't recall Paul telling people to try to change how the people outside the church were behaving. We sit around and judge just like the pharisees and then we wonder why people think Christians are judgemental. I even had a jr. high girl say to me once "What if I become her best, best friend? THEN can I tell her that her clothes are inappropriate?" How twisted is that? To become someone's friend not to show God's love to them but to have the right to judge them. Yikes. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 4/14/2004 11:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by msekee
In our first church, it wasn't the staff that was complacent. Our pastor did a sermon series based on the book "30 days to understanding what Christians believe". Most of the people just didn't care. They figured that they were saved and so they just came to church to be entertained. At the church we're at now the pastor came out and said that his philosophy of ministry is to get people to come, and then get them to serve (especially since if they are serving they are more likely to come). Knowing what we believe, why and how that affects our lives doesn't seem to be something many Christians desire and it isn't stressed from the pulpit at most places either.
And yes, I think the strong influence of Calvinism has played into this because people that accept the surface beliefs of Calvanism tend to get very fatalistic. "Whatever is supposed to happen will happen" kind of attitude.
I recently read a book called "Adventures in Missing the Point; How the culture controlled church has neutered the Gospel". It really pointed out a lot of things the church does that has nothing to do with the Church's original purpose.
It seems like all we dwell on as Christians now is how bad the outside world is - especially how bad American culture is becoming. I don't recall Paul telling people to try to change how the people outside the church were behaving. We sit around and judge just like the pharisees and then we wonder why people think Christians are judgemental. I even had a jr. high girl say to me once "What if I become her best, best friend? THEN can I tell her that her clothes are inappropriate?" How twisted is that? To become someone's friend not to show God's love to them but to have the right to judge them. Yikes.
I know. Somehow Christians lost the way. We emphasize right behavior over love. We forget that out of love flows right behavior, not vice versa. The goal should be to help people get saved so they can enjoy eternity with Christ. But, instead our goal always tends to be protecting ourselves from the world, and telling them how sinful they are. Greg Boyd has been trying to preach self-sacrificing love and personal improvement for the last year or so, and I think he's received a lot of criticism for it. As you said, many Christians are complacent about their own spiritual condition while at the same time judging others. We don't want to hear how we should work to improve ourselves. We only want to hear how much worse the world is than us. Jesus said that in the last days there would be preaching for itching ears. We're definitely seeing that now. We should judge our own hearts to see if we're guilty of having itching ears. I wonder how many church attendees will really be in heaven.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/14/2004 12:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika,
Let's see if I know what the heck I'm doin'
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Wahoo
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/14/2004 12:10 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 4/16/2004 5:12 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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