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msekee
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 30
| Posted 4/7/2004 2:22 PM (GMT -6) |   | | My husband has been a youth pastor for eleven years and his father was a pastor and missionary. We're both as "churched" as you can get. But we have never felt comfortable around other Christians until this new "emergent" church started appearing. Suddenly, there are people like Greg Boyd, Brian McLaren and good old Tony Campolo who really make sense. Just when Christianity started seeming real to us again...the elders of our current church (been here only 18 months after nine good years somewhere else) have started to get really agitated about the way we teach the young people to think for themselves. We had the audacity to mention Boyd's view of foreknowledge and we're being blasted for it to the point where if we don't come out and say that open theism is heresy we will probably have to leave. It's crazy since we're not even totally sold on it yet ourselves. I read on that people are being kicked out of theological societies over this and everything. Our pastor told me I had insulted the character of God by denying his omniscience. I was so offended. It just seems to me that those of us with "unique" views other than traditional evangelicalism and dispensationalism are about to be pushed out of churches not just to start their own "denomonation" but to start their own branch - just like the Lutheran split from the Catholics. (didn't Luther really want to stay in the Catholic church anyway?) Anyway - I just am so frustrated and wanted to "vent" somewhere where I felt like people might just sort of understand. I'm very thankful I found this site and I am so grateful for Greg Boyd's books that have helped me immensely. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/7/2004 9:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Vent on. I know how you feel. As you become (assuming you do become) more settled in the open view, you'll have to leave your church. Count on it. Sorry, but that's the world we live in. But there are two good points to keep in mind. One, the effect which naysayers claimed the open view would have in peoples' lives hasn't occured. We were told the open view would shipwrecked your faith, would make it impossible to trust God, that it would (as all good heresies do) eventually lead to corrupt lifestyle (i.e., bad theology leads to bad living). I don't doubt heresy does have such an effect. But the effect hasn't shown up in our case. Open theists still (many years after wholeheatedly embracing the view) love God, love others, walk rightly, live holy, and serve passionately. Secondly, rather than shipwrecking our faith, the open view is changing lives. People aren't just "surviving" the open view, they're actually praying more and more fervently, worshipping more intensely, involving themselves in missions more committedly. If this is heresy, tie me to the stake.
These two facts (among others), I think, insure that whatever costs you and others have to pay now for embracing the open view (or even talking open mindedly about it, i.e., not condemning it) will in the end make a difference. If we're looking at a new Reformation, fine.
Hang in there Karen. And God bless ya.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 4/7/2004 10:26 PM (GMT -6) | | I agree, hang in there.
To me your situation again brings to my mind how those who oppose the open view remind me of the Pharisee's. I believe Satan has many people blinded to truth. I'm not saying that those who understand how the open view fits within God's plan are superior, but I do believe that once people see the light to the open view they are liberated to truth. It's amazing how evangelicals are kicking people out due to the open view. We are the body of Christ and are called to unite not divide. Satan has his hand in all of this.
I feel a sadness for those lost in determinism. Your experience just shows again how the leadership of your church are being deceived by the enemy. Prayer does avail much and can tear down walls that Satan tries to create. Hand in there. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/8/2004 1:47 AM (GMT -6) | | msekee,
quote:
TGB says: One, the effect which naysayers claimed the open view would have in peoples' lives hasn't occured. We were told the open view would shipwrecked your faith, would make it impossible to trust God, that it would (as all good heresies do) eventually lead to corrupt lifestyle (i.e., bad theology leads to bad living). I don't doubt heresy does have such an effect. But the effect hasn't shown up in our case.
I would encourage a dialogue with the people to attempt to understand their concerns. What is certain is that TGB has misapplied the test for "wrong" in the above quote. The Dali Lama, Mahatma Gandhi, and especially the "good mormons" are just a little evidence that all heresies don't lead to corrupt lifestyles in the sense of immoral/nasty behavior. The reference made to the Pharisees was a good one. As a moral Pharisee, Paul claimed that when he hated the truth he was found perfect in respect to the law's righteousness - but he was lost.
I believe that God commands another standard to measure by than moral actions. Deuteronomy 13:1-11 speaks about men who claim to speak for God and their words are backed by miracles. Israel was not to listen to them; they were to stone and kill them (even if they were family members) if these men were leading them to a God not revealed by Moses. The "righteousness" of the prophet was secondary to the rightness of the message. With the advent of the second Moses, the prophet that Moses promised in Deut 18, we have a tangible and manifest Jesus who explains God to us with real words. This tangible man and His words that other men heard and witnessed to is the foundation of our faith. Experienceing Him mystically is foreign to faith and believing. Read John 1 and then read 1 John 1 and what Jesus does he bring? This God came to us as a man and worked salvation for us in His death and resurrection. This is now what is central and the standard of measure. In 1 John 4 we see that we are not to believe all who claim to speak for God and their revelations. The test is parallel to the test in Deut 13. They bring a substitute messiah and not the tangible one who is now waiting at the right hand of His Father.quote:
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
The standard is not "morality" but the confession of Jesus and his work in the flesh and the tangible nature of His incarnation/resurrection/ascention to the right hand of God where He waits until He returns.
I belive that the most telling "fruit" to study regarding the shipwrecked faith mentioned by TCB should be that the Jesus that Dr. Boyd is describing in his new book, "Seeing is Believeing" is no longer the Jesus who came in the flesh but one that we see now in our imagination, and believe in. A moral, upright, compassionate, eloquent, and kind prophet is not the evidence of the "fruit" that is to be the standard. quote:
1 Peter 1:8, though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of £your faith the salvation of your souls.
quote:
John 20:29, Jesus said* to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
quote:
Romans 8:24, For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
I agree with TGB that the "open view" may not lead to leachery and debauchery. It would be rational if the open view, with its emphasis on an open area where man's will is sovereign, instead emphasizes a kind of piety that we create with our decisions. But this isn't the essence of Christianity nor is it the standard to measure prophets/preachers. Dr. Boyd believes in the centrality of Jesus and in his new book provides methods to experience Him in one's imagination and believe. This shift from an objective tangible Jesus of the flesh to an imaginary one is dangerous.
Spen Lake
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/8/2004 3:02 AM (GMT -6) | | spenlake: I belive that the most telling "fruit" to study regarding the shipwrecked faith mentioned by TCB should be that the Jesus that Dr. Boyd is describing in his new book, "Seeing is Believeing" is no longer the Jesus who came in the flesh but one that we see now in our imagination, and believe in.
Tom: Doc's book and his approach to Jesus therein have absolutely nothing to do with the practical effects which opponents of open theism said would in time manifest themselves in the lives of open theists. Doc's book "Seeing Jesus" is not a primer on the open view and could be entirely discarded by open theits. We're talking about open theism, not Doc's approach to spirituality or his Christology. So nothing of what you warn against regarding mysticism attaches to the open view. Rail on against "Seeing Jesus" if you want to, but don't equate that with the open view of the future.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 4/8/2004 6:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Spen: I am an open theist and have been long before Doctor Boyd's Seeing Is Believing came out. If you don't like the book, fine. But you are doing exactly what opponents of open theism do all the time. Rail in ignorance. Open theism is about theology, not mystisicm. Keep the two seperate. And Doctor Boyd is not the only open theism theologian, therefore he does not speak for the entire movement.
You seem to want to discredit the movement on one book you do not like which isn't even about open theism (it is simply written by Doctor Boyd). Such a view is wrong.
Finally, it was theologians like Piper who proclaimed that open theism would "ruin lives," etc. Open theists are simply responding to their critics by pointing out that open theists are not walking away from God, leading sinful lives, etc., in response to their critics.
BTW, its hard to dialogue with people who won't take the time to truly understand what you believe, but rather regurgitate accusations. Until opponents of open theism take the time to honestly understand what we believe, it will be hard to form any dialogue. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/8/2004 9:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
Vent on. I know how you feel. As you become (assuming you do become) more settled in the open view, you'll have to leave your church. Count on it.
I have been able to stay in my current church and denomination since embracing the Open View; however, I have definitely had to learn to be more wise in how I share this view as well as WHO I share this view with. It helps in that I am part of a denomination that has a very strong free will, revivalistic tradition, that has been historically Wesleyan-Arminian Pentecostal.
I have found that when I present the issue by first asking people if they believe prayer changes things, whether or not their actions really make a difference, etc., and then begin to ask them how they think the traditional teaching on foreknowledge can coexist with their intuitive belief in free will, I have laid the groundwork for a possible dialogue.
When I first discovered and embraced the Open View (which was really what I had believed all along, I just didn't fully realize it until I began studying the writings of Open Theists), I'm afraid my zeal did not match my wisdom in many cases, and I tended to get into a lot of heated arguments about the nature of God instead of the nature of the future. I find that it really helps to keep the focus on the status of the future (because that is really what the Open View of the future is about, not whether or not God possesses omniscience).
I also find it helpful to point out in Scripture the many times where God says "perhaps," "if" and refers to what would or might have been. In other words, take your cue from Scripture's own depiction of God as in fact facing many real possibilities with regard to the future.
Anyway, you have friends here, msekee. It's sometimes difficult not to, but don't let yourself be discouraged by those whose minds are closed.
Sincerely,
John
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/8/2004 9:55 AM (GMT -6) | | As you can see from this board, you better be well equipped before you start debating OV with you’re church elders. I can relate to QFT “I feel a sadness for those lost in determinism” after attending the March 19th debate, I felt a deep sadness for the belief of determinists; I felt its sad roots all the way into our society and culture.
I often listen to both Piper and Boyd on the radio and for the most part their differing theological views on determinism never come up in their message. I agree with moon_river_j, “walk in love”, not theology. When you’re ministering to youth, do they really care that much about theology? In the long run, being backed into the corner by church elders might turn out to be a blessing for you, if you’re lead by the Spirit to new ground that bears fruit, maybe you will help open the minds and hearts of the elders or others about OV.
There is other ways to do Kingdom work outside of organized religion. Read the book “Love not Religion” and learn how following Christ does not mean following religion. Jesus said “follow me”, he did NOT say follow religion, men or even other (so called) Christians for that matter. Church is not a building; it is any small group of Christians coming together in love, united in Christ, not theology. It’s hard enough to fight against the undercurrent of this fallen world let alone fight amongst our fellow Christian Brothers and Sisters. I’m anxiously waiting the release of Dr. Boyd’s new book “Repenting of Religion: Turning from Judgment to the Love of God.
God Bless you.
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 4/8/2004 10:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Spark: while I can agree with the majority of what you saying, I must point out this: yes, when I am ministering to youth I do care about theology, because theology is about God and that is the heart of what we minister. Now I realize you may be refering to the different theological debates and such, but I tire that the word "theology" gets a bad name and a bad reputation.
A Christian cannot love properly if their theology is not truly in line, if they don't know properly who God is, etc. So, I believe, whenever one ministers one should always care about theology.
Our theology dictates how we will love, who we love and whom we will love.
The Beatles said all you need is love...no, to love well you need to know the author of love. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/8/2004 10:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
Spark: while I can agree with the majority of what you saying, I must point out this: yes, when I am ministering to youth I do care about theology, because theology is about God and that is the heart of what we minister. Now I realize you may be refering to the different theological debates and such, but I tire that the word "theology" gets a bad name and a bad reputation.
A Christian cannot love properly if their theology is not truly in line, if they don't know properly who God is, etc. So, I believe, whenever one ministers one should always care about theology.
Our theology dictates how we will love, who we love and whom we will love.
The Beatles said all you need is love...no, to love well you need to know the author of love.
AMEN, you're "feelin" it!
God orchestrates all that is beautiful in this world including secular music;
Nothing you can make that can't be made.
No one you can save that can't be saved.
Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you in time.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
All you need is love.
All you need is love, love.
Love is all you need.
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 4/8/2004 11:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
Spark: while I can agree with the majority of what you saying, I must point out this: yes, when I am ministering to youth I do care about theology, because theology is about God and that is the heart of what we minister. Now I realize you may be refering to the different theological debates and such, but I tire that the word "theology" gets a bad name and a bad reputation.
A Christian cannot love properly if their theology is not truly in line, if they don't know properly who God is, etc. So, I believe, whenever one ministers one should always care about theology.
Our theology dictates how we will love, who we love and whom we will love.
The Beatles said all you need is love...no, to love well you need to know the author of love.
AMEN, you're "feelin" it!
God orchestrates all that is beautiful in this world including secular music;
Nothing you can make that can't be made.
No one you can save that can't be saved.
Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you in time.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
All you need is love.
All you need is love, love.
Love is all you need.
Spark,
Feelinahole was pointing out that that song is incorrect. Yes, all you need is love but the love you need is God who is Love, not the "love" that the Beatles were talking about.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/8/2004 11:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
[Spark,
Feelinahole was pointing out that that song is incorrect. Yes, all you need is love but the love you need is God who is Love, not the "love" that the Beatles were talking about.
God orchestrates all LOVE and all that is beautiful in music, art, etc. if the Beatles truly loved or just created lovely music, all Glory goes to God as the Creator. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 4/8/2004 12:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
[Spark,
Feelinahole was pointing out that that song is incorrect. Yes, all you need is love but the love you need is God who is Love, not the "love" that the Beatles were talking about.
God orchestrates all LOVE and all that is beautiful in music, art, etc. if the Beatles truly loved or just created lovely music, all Glory goes to God as the Creator.
True, all beauty comes from God, but humans have the power to abuse and twist that gift. Remember that the Beatles song My Sweet Lord was actually in praise of Krishna or Bhuddha. (It gets sung in the background or something.) And the "love" that the Beatles sang about was self-centered love like so-called "free love" meaning pre-marital sex with multiple partners, sharing drugs with people, never confronting people if they're being self-destuctive, etc., etc., etc.
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 4/8/2004 12:43 PM (GMT -6) | | | All beauty comes from God, but love cannot be fully express without the one true God. | | Back to Top | | |
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msekee
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 30
| Posted 4/8/2004 1:31 PM (GMT -6) | | | I really, really appreciate all the responses. We are really feeling that we will never see eye to eye with the leadership here. I know that we could give them all the "evidence" or "defenses" in the world of the open view, and they won't even read the book. It's so frustrating. And as for the whole theology for young people thing...we think it's essential. We've seen a generation of young people grow up on cliche faith. They "know" that God is in control etc. but don't really know what that means. This whole issue came about because we had a young lady that believed it's not possible to be out of God's will - ever - since He knows what you'll do anyway so it's all part of the plan. I teach through the gospels in Jr. High Sunday school and questions like "Why is the temptation of Jesus called a temptation if it wasn't possible for Him to sin?". If we stay here we will have to tow the traditional evangelical line - and we'd rather present views for them to think about - except in five areas - inerrancy of scripture, virgin birth, trinity, death and resurrection of Christ, salvation through the faith in Christ. I really like the doctrinal statement for Woodland Hills. I guess we just need to really pray about the next step. I for one am still thankful for God of the Possible and Is God to Blame? for articulating ideas that I'd long believed but never dared to even say out loud. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/8/2004 1:39 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
All beauty comes from God, but love cannot be fully express without the one true God.
Amen | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/8/2004 5:11 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by msekee
I really, really appreciate all the responses. We are really feeling that we will never see eye to eye with the leadership here.
Pray for them, maybe the Spirit will help change their vision.
quote:
And as for the whole theology for young people thing...we think it's essential. We've seen a generation of young people grow up on cliche faith. They "know" that God is in control etc. but don't really know what that means. This whole issue came about because we had a young lady that believed it's not possible to be out of God's will - ever - since He knows what you'll do anyway so it's all part of the plan. I teach through the gospels in Jr. High Sunday school and questions like "Why is the temptation of Jesus called a temptation if it wasn't possible for Him to sin?".
I don’t know what I was thinking, I have four kids so I can relate to kids asking a lot of questions. You're right, my view about the sermon messages on the radio breaks down when we start probing deeper with questions. Boyd’s book answers such deep questions. At the debate, Mr. Dewaay’s opening argument to defend determinism was very good, it was not until he had to answer certain questions that you started to see his theology break down, even his body language changed, that is when I started to feel sad for him and all those that are trapped in determinism. Maybe that is why your church leadership feels so defensive. It is sad, pray for them, I will pray for you.
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 4/8/2004 7:27 PM (GMT -6) | | | Spen: I agree, the book does reflect on something. But what would that be? If I could find a like book written by a reformed Christian would you be as critical as you are about open theism? Many Christians have written in the area of mystisicm. Some are wrong. That certainly doesn't mean their theology is wrong, but rather it may be their application of it. Again, though, you seem to be implying that Doctor Boyd's mysticism springs from his open theism. I would say, rather, that it would proably spring from his desire to grow closer to God (and help others do the same). The book is not about open theism. | | Back to Top | | |
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