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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/13/2004 1:00 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/13/2004 1:42 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Okay, what the hey...
It would be very surprising if you were able to find a non-gay male friend who would be happy as "just friends." Most heterosexual men usually are not interested in "just being friends" with women.
John, within loving community it is possible to have brothers as good friends. That just needs to be within well defined boundaries. It's when we step outside of those boundaries that there are difficulties. I think you might agree to this. We could talk about what those boundaries should be if you life. I think some of what we expect is possible is cultural. Some of what we don't think is possible is paranoia (not to say that you are paranoid, but there are some who are). It is good to be wise in relationships but to recognize brothers and sisters in Christ as being just that - brothers and sisters.
Perhaps this is different depending on the individual as well, their life circumstances, the expectations of the community...
Jo-Anne 
Who you callin' paranoid!!!! 
But seriously, I stand by my statement, based on my own experience and the experience of every "straight" man I've ever known. Perhaps I should clarify, however, to make it clear that a man could possibly have a godly friendship with a woman who is unattractive to him. However, even then, attractions can grow.
The main thing to remember is that men are almost 100% visually oriented, especially when it comes to sexual attraction. Hence, the perennial popularity and success of the pornography industry, which nearly completely caters to men.
I'm of course only giving my opinion on this, and would definitely like to hear what other men have to say. However, from my experience in talking with "the guys," I would be willing to bet that they would agree with me about this.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/13/2004 1:59 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Okay, what the hey...
It would be very surprising if you were able to find a non-gay male friend who would be happy as "just friends." Most heterosexual men usually are not interested in "just being friends" with women.
John, within loving community it is possible to have brothers as good friends. That just needs to be within well defined boundaries. It's when we step outside of those boundaries that there are difficulties. I think you might agree to this. We could talk about what those boundaries should be if you life. I think some of what we expect is possible is cultural. Some of what we don't think is possible is paranoia (not to say that you are paranoid, but there are some who are). It is good to be wise in relationships but to recognize brothers and sisters in Christ as being just that - brothers and sisters.
Perhaps this is different depending on the individual as well, their life circumstances, the expectations of the community...
Jo-Anne
Who you callin' paranoid!!!!
But seriously, I stand by my statement, based on my own experience and the experience of every "straight" man I've ever known. Perhaps I should clarify, however, to make it clear that a man could possibly have a godly friendship with a woman who is unattractive to him. However, even then, attractions can grow.
The main thing to remember is that men are almost 100% visually oriented, especially when it comes to sexual attraction. Hence, the perennial popularity and success of the pornography industry, which nearly completely caters to men.
I'm of course only giving my opinion on this, and would definitely like to hear what other men have to say. However, from my experience in talking with "the guys," I would be willing to bet that they would agree at least with the ease with which men can become aroused.
BUT JOHN...
We're talkin community, shoulder hugs on special occasions, theology discussions, potluck suppers, sitting around the campfire at family camp as brothers and sisters. We're talkin worship together, dinners out as couples... ? Am I being naive? Am I just a dreamer like Tigress? Or are you thinking coffee alone, sitting side by side discussing personal things, full frontal hugs...
What do you think are appropriate (but not ridiculous) boundaries?
Is is possible? Is having a friend on this board possible as well (not that I have a male friend on this board - I don't...just brothers).
Wondering (sinceremente),
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/13/2004 2:41 PM (GMT -6) | | I read the "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" and "Boy Meets Girl" duo and I couldn't be the super-refrainer that Harris talks about. And, if you happen to find a guy who really is so well-behaved, and he's straight with all the fixins, then go ahead and just be friends.
One book that i did find tremenously helpful(I could sell these books) is "Mark of a Man" by Elizabeth Elliot. Not just for men and written by a woman. She has really walked the line with her life and I felt like she was my mother and my sister. That's wisdom for ya.
Jus my two centavos
Wahoo | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/13/2004 4:13 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
We're talkin community, shoulder hugs on special occasions, theology discussions, potluck suppers, sitting around the campfire at family camp as brothers and sisters. We're talkin worship together, dinners out as couples... ?
I wouldn't consider the examples you gave as unwise. But what I gathered Tigress was talking about was one-on-one kinds of friendships. My wife and I regularly go out with other couples, so long as we both feel comfortable with them and drawn to their friendship.
As to the propriety of friendships on this board, I have known of some people who got into relationships they shouldn't have as a direct result of interactions they had on the internet. But I honestly have never seen any inappropriate relationships on this board, thankfully. For me personally, I can talk with women here without being tempted for the following reasons:
1. This board seems to be a pretty solid Christian community, in my experience.
2. As a result of #1, there are no "nudie" pictures or suggestive pop-up ads here. (I've been involved in other message boards where the pop-up ads alone would present quite a difficulty for any normal man to keep his thoughts righteous).
3. I was led to "marry rather than to burn with passion," (1 Cor 7) and have a very fulfilling relationship with my wife. That said, I know that for some guys who don't have a healthy and godly outlet for their sex drive, even a wholesome environment such as this could present temptations to their mind. (Sex is nearly all in the mind, anyway).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 4/13/2004 5:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Tigress,
I was thinking about your original concern and then I began to think about the difference between Martha and Mary. They were both women but one was more concerned with hospitality while the other interested in sitting at Jesus' feet to hear what he had to say. Hmmmm? | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/13/2004 8:59 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
We're talkin community, shoulder hugs on special occasions, theology discussions, potluck suppers, sitting around the campfire at family camp as brothers and sisters. We're talkin worship together, dinners out as couples... ?
I wouldn't consider the examples you gave as unwise. But what I gathered Tigress was talking about was one-on-one kinds of friendships. My wife and I regularly go out with other couples, so long as we both feel comfortable with them and drawn to their friendship.
As to the propriety of friendships on this board, I have known of some people who got into relationships they shouldn't have as a direct result of interactions they had on the internet. But I honestly have never seen any inappropriate relationships on this board, thankfully. For me personally, I can talk with women here without being tempted for the following reasons:
1. This board seems to be a pretty solid Christian community, in my experience.
2. As a result of #1, there are no "nudie" pictures or suggestive pop-up ads here. (I've been involved in other message boards where the pop-up ads alone would present quite a difficulty for any normal man to keep his thoughts righteous).
3. I was led to "marry rather than to burn with passion," (1 Cor 7) and have a very fulfilling relationship with my wife. That said, I know that for some guys who don't have a healthy and godly outlet for their sex drive, even a wholesome environment such as this could present temptations to their mind. (Sex is nearly all in the mind, anyway).
Point well taken John. After all you are much more the expert than I (not being male). Sad that one on one friendships with Christian brothers don't seem to be possible. I wish it were so. I still even stubbornly believe that somehow it should/could be so if it were in the appropriate context. But I'll take your word for it.
Why can't a friendship be just that...a friendship?
This board does seem (overall) to be a wholesome place. I have not seen anything inappropriate either. I'm sure that you and your wife (being happily married) will be able to help others who struggle with their relationship as husbands and wives.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/14/2004 2:34 AM (GMT -6) | | More on "The Mark of a Man"...
Elliot goes into the confusion that generations since the sixties have encountered about sex roles. Not that the fifties were ideal or anything. But she really goes into God's design at the garden of Eden and how those primal things, having gone awhack, have thrown everything else into tailspin. I think you would find a real heartfelt response to all the heartache that especially God-fearing people have when it comes to male-female relationships. Also, real men aren't macho, thier initiators... real women aren't housewives, their, their... well you'd have to read the book and I lent it out so I can't easily reference it. But be prepared to examine yourself.
The chapters are like two and three pages long, and there is no psychological profiling, like in "Boundaries" so you don't get labeled as any kind of case. Anyone else read this one?
Wahoo | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 4/14/2004 6:28 AM (GMT -6) | | The simple fact is that men are pigs. Christians think that because a guy is a Christian he is otherworldly. That is a bunch of cr*p! In fact, most Christian guys I have meant are worse, because they use the spiritually of the situation to take advantage of well meaning Christian girls.
Tigress, I am truly sorry about your situation. Christian guys are just as lust filled as non-Christian guys. That has been my take, and I am one of them. Men are pigs and just because they become a Christian doesn't mean they are less so. Men are not visual. They are sinful. Pure and simple. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/14/2004 7:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
The simple fact is that men are pigs.
My eldest daughter and I LOVE pigs. (I used to take her to visit the university campus farm when she was growing up)
So either you're paying men a compliment by comparing them to pigs or
you're showing disrespect to pigs by comparing them to men.
IT BETTER BE THE FORMER..... 
Yea it better be the former.... I used to tell my daughter  the story of the three little pigs. She grew up wanting to be a cop and went to school for law enforcement. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/14/2004 7:44 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/14/2004 2:42 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 4/14/2004 7:13 PM (GMT -6) | | | I believe men are pigs because that is what they choose to be...end of story. | | Back to Top | | |
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Archibaldo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 32
| Posted 4/14/2004 8:02 PM (GMT -6) | | (Moon River)Point well taken John. After all you are much more the expert than I (not being male). Sad that one on one friendships with Christian brothers don't seem to be possible. I wish it were so. I still even stubbornly believe that somehow it should/could be so if it were in the appropriate context. But I'll take your word for it.
(Archy) I've been wondering lately about a lot of the traditional boundaries that the church has set up. Recently accepting a youth pastor position, i've been evaluating the guidelines of one on one contact between volunteers and students and what boundaries those must/should have. In today's youth culture, opposite gender relationships as friends are becoming normal and healthy.
As a youth pastor, i often wonder now about with the spreading of homosexual activity, if we can separate the boys pray with boys and girls pray with girls so that those "spiritual bonds that are hard to break" don't form amongst opposite genders, when now it is also likely to happen within gender. Just questions i've been struggling over while trying to create the healthy enviornment that is aware of the satan's plans.
As a result of some of the trends though, and my own experiences at college, i have seen many successful friendships between one man and one women, done in one on one settings. I have also seen people try and fail. It takes unique people, but God has made many unique people.
God Bless,
Archy
"anything less than passion is dog crap." -Paul Hurckman | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/14/2004 10:34 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Archibaldo
(Moon River)Point well taken John. After all you are much more the expert than I (not being male). Sad that one on one friendships with Christian brothers don't seem to be possible. I wish it were so. I still even stubbornly believe that somehow it should/could be so if it were in the appropriate context. But I'll take your word for it.
(Archy) I've been wondering lately about a lot of the traditional boundaries that the church has set up. Recently accepting a youth pastor position, i've been evaluating the guidelines of one on one contact between volunteers and students and what boundaries those must/should have. In today's youth culture, opposite gender relationships as friends are becoming normal and healthy.
As a youth pastor, i often wonder now about with the spreading of homosexual activity, if we can separate the boys pray with boys and girls pray with girls so that those "spiritual bonds that are hard to break" don't form amongst opposite genders, when now it is also likely to happen within gender. Just questions i've been struggling over while trying to create the healthy enviornment that is aware of the satan's plans.
As a result of some of the trends though, and my own experiences at college, i have seen many successful friendships between one man and one women, done in one on one settings. I have also seen people try and fail. It takes unique people, but God has made many unique people.
God Bless,
Archy
Amen! Thank you Archy. I believe if your focus is Jesus Christ...if you're lives intersect at the cross - that a one on one friendship is possible and not only possible but can be godly. I do believe we need to be careful, not naive. I believe that sexuality is God given and if it is brought under His lordship that we will view our brothers and sisters in Christ as just that - brothers and sisters in Christ.
I believe we have to be more careful with teens because they are emotionally very vulnerable. They may not have either the emotional or spiritual maturity (along with raging hormones) to be able to have one on one friendships with the opposite sex. I believe that teenage dating devastates them and that teens are not enjoying family life and friends (often at least) because of these confusing relationships.
I believe having a friendship with the opposite sex within healthy boundaries is part of loving community in Christ. The key is that both people are committed to Christ and recognize what the boundaries need to be (which may vary for individuals). I don't think you can make blanket statements as far as relationships. There are so many factors that enter in to relationships and each relationship/friendship is unique and needs to be considered that way. I have seen both extremes and neither is healthy.
I think it is a wonderful idea to encourage teens to do things in groups. We have teens in our home every week and we have good rapport with most of them. We love having them here and they know they are loved and accepted as they are. I have a great appreciation for those who are called to pastor youth.
God Bless!
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 4/15/2004 5:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
..."Well men are just more visual. That's just how they're wired." B.S. They're wired that way because of the Fall!
I think the sex drive was built into humankind before the Fall. Adam and Eve were told to "be fruitful and multiply" before they sinned, and it seems difficult to imagine how they would be expected to do so without a basic desire for sex built in.
quote:
The way they're supposed to treat women is by looking at our insides first, and looking past our physical appearances so that a true attraction to a woman's whole being can develop.
How is someone supposed to look at your insides first, unless he's an x-ray tech? (just kidding).
Johnny boy,
Not all women are beautiful and therefore sexually attractive to most men. I don't believe God would have purposely made men to be so visual right from the start because that would make it impossible for most women to attract a man. I believe that before the Fall men and women were able to see each other differently so that it wasn't mainly physical appearance that allured them to each other.
Just like Greg Boyd has said - when the Fall occured, everything turned upside down. The pyramid was: God controlling humans, humans' spirits controlling humans' souls, humans' souls controlling their minds, and their minds controlling their bodies. After the Fall humans' bodies controlled their minds and spirits so that they aren't driven by right decisions, but instead by their physical desires, i.e. they're only attracted to the most beautiful-looking person. This is unjust to the less attractive people and injustice is a mark of the Fall. Start seeing with the eyes that God originally intended you to see others with - your spirit, guided and empowered by The Holy Spirit.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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