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msekee
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 30
| Posted 4/15/2004 8:13 AM (GMT -6) |   | Archy
I know what you mean about this whole boundaries in youth ministry thing. My husband loves to disciple both the guys and the girls and when we came to this church the leadership thought that was "inappropriate". Even if he took all the proper precautions of where to meet and not being alone even in a car etc. They thought a woman should always disciple a girl. They want the youth split up in their small groups based on gender too. Our view is that if they are segregated through high school, how will they have a clue how to relate to each other - except based on what their hormones are telling them? Yes, intimate one on one friendships between guys and girls are rare - but my husband has a yearbook full of girls signatures who never dated him. (I've met some of them so I know it was friendship from both sides!) This whole attitude that men (and boys) can't control themselves and that they are "just made that way" just doesn't sit well with me. That's like being an alchoholic and saying that there's nothing you can do about it because it's just the way you're made.
As youth pastors, I would hope we could teach the young people to respect each other as human beings and not just see each other as the object of affection. Have we confused love and sex just like our culture does? | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/15/2004 9:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
..."Well men are just more visual. That's just how they're wired." B.S. They're wired that way because of the Fall!
I think the sex drive was built into humankind before the Fall. Adam and Eve were told to "be fruitful and multiply" before they sinned, and it seems difficult to imagine how they would be expected to do so without a basic desire for sex built in.
quote:
The way they're supposed to treat women is by looking at our insides first, and looking past our physical appearances so that a true attraction to a woman's whole being can develop.
How is someone supposed to look at your insides first, unless he's an x-ray tech? (just kidding).
Johnny boy,
Not all women are beautiful and therefore sexually attractive to most men. I don't believe God would have purposely made men to be so visual right from the start because that would make it impossible for most women to attract a man. I believe that before the Fall men and women were able to see each other differently so that it wasn't mainly physical appearance that allured them to each other.
Just like Greg Boyd has said - when the Fall occured, everything turned upside down. The pyramid was: God controlling humans, humans' spirits controlling humans' souls, humans' souls controlling their minds, and their minds controlling their bodies. After the Fall humans' bodies controlled their minds and spirits so that they aren't driven by right decisions, but instead by their physical desires, i.e. they're only attracted to the most beautiful-looking person. This is unjust to the less attractive people and injustice is a mark of the Fall. Start seeing with the eyes that God originally intended you to see others with - your spirit, guided and empowered by The Holy Spirit.
Okay, but then the implication would be that the sex drive in and of itself is sinful, which would also imply that God made men with this sinful sex drive. I appreciate what you (and perhaps Greg) are saying, I just don't see how it follows from the facts of Genesis. The whole "sex is sinful" idea came straight from Augustine, not the Bible. Why would God include an entire book (Song of Solomon) devoted to romantic love (with some rather explicit sexual overtones) if it is true that sex is in and of itself sinful.
My other thought right now is that this provides a rather convenient excuse for you, a way to blame the guys for not liking you (as if they can help what attracts them in the first place).
The point of this thread seems to be that you aren't happy with who you are, Tigress. I do believe you have great worth in the sight of God (as do all people, no matter what their physical appearance).
I once read that "when you're ready, it will happen." I think there is much truth in that statement, though I know it pains us to have to defer instant gratification for a long-term goal of a fulfilling marriage. All during my 20s and into my early 30s, I was horribly tormented as a VERY normal male desperately NEEDING a wife, and yet trying very hard to keep my thought life pure. When I met and began dating the wonderful lady I'm now married to, I had a lot of trouble in my mind, trying to discern if she was God's will for me. One night during a revival service, I was in the altar area praying for God to show me the right choice, and He did. I have had perfect peace since then that I found God's perfect choice for me. And yet it was a very difficult struggle getting to that point, trying to find the will of God.
My point (and I do have one) is that perhaps it would be a good idea for you to try earnestly praying and even fasting (if you are able to), seeking God's will for your life like never before. It may sound like a pat answer, but I really do believe Jesus spoke the truth when He said if we seek first the kingdom and His righteousness all other things would fall into place.
Not saying you're not doing this already, but just that perhaps you might focus more intensely on what GOD wants you to do and to be than on what you think you should be or what others might think you should be in order to be a whole and happy person. Other than that, I don't know what else I can say. Cyberspace definitely has its limits.
God bless you, Tigress. Be the woman of God he has called you to be, and nothing else will really matter.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 4/15/2004 10:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Okay, but then the implication would be that the sex drive in and of itself is sinful, which would also imply that God made men with this sinful sex drive. I appreciate what you (and perhaps Greg) are saying, I just don't see how it follows from the facts of Genesis. The whole "sex is sinful" idea came straight from Augustine, not the Bible. Why would God include an entire book (Song of Solomon) devoted to romantic love (with some rather explicit sexual overtones) if it is true that sex is in and of itself sinful.
My other thought right now is that this provides a rather convenient excuse for you, a way to blame the guys for not liking you (as if they can help what attracts them in the first place).
The point of this thread seems to be that you aren't happy with who you are, Tigress. I do believe you have great worth in the sight of God (as do all people, no matter what their physical appearance).
I once read that "when you're ready, it will happen." I think there is much truth in that statement, though I know it pains us to have to defer instant gratification for a long-term goal of a fulfilling marriage. All during my 20s and into my early 30s, I was horribly tormented as a VERY normal male desperately NEEDING a wife, and yet trying very hard to keep my thought life pure. When I met and began dating the wonderful lady I'm now married to, I had a lot of trouble in my mind, trying to discern if she was God's will for me. One night during a revival service, I was in the altar area praying for God to show me the right choice, and He did. I have had perfect peace since then that I found God's perfect choice for me. And yet it was a very difficult struggle getting to that point, trying to find the will of God.
My point (and I do have one) is that perhaps it would be a good idea for you to try earnestly praying and even fasting (if you are able to), seeking God's will for your life like never before. It may sound like a pat answer, but I really do believe Jesus spoke the truth when He said if we seek first the kingdom and His righteousness all other things would fall into place.
Not saying you're not doing this already, but just that perhaps you might focus more intensely on what GOD wants you to do and to be than on what you think you should be or what others might think you should be in order to be a whole and happy person. Other than that, I don't know what else I can say. Cyberspace definitely has its limits.
God bless you, Tigress. Be the woman of God he has called you to be, and nothing else will really matter.
John,
Where in the WORLD did you get the idea that I believe sex is sinful? I believe sex is wonderful, beautiful, awesome, the greatest physical act between a husband and wife and I want it sooooooo bad!
How did you get from me saying that men focusing mainly on women's external beauty is sinful to men's sex drives are sinful? Do NOT I repeat do NOT put words into my mouth!  Men's sex drives are great AS LONG AS they aren't basing all that drives them on how a woman LOOKS. What the heck do you think blind men do, huh? They obviously are aroused by more than a woman's physical beauty. And THAT'S the way God intended it to be. Obviously, looks do play into it or God wouldn't have given us eyes, but I believe God originally wired men in a way that can sexually arouse them by more than just how a woman looks. I believe Adam was aroused by more than just how Eve's body looked. He saw her with spiritual eyes and even if she wasn't physically beautiful he would have been hot for her anyway, because he saw her as God saw her. THAT'S the way your sex drive is supposed to work and that's what Jesus' work on the cross did to restore for us women who aren't beautiful. So, there's no excuse. By the Holy Spirit's power, all Christian men should be able to get aroused by Christian women who aren't physically beautiful.
Remember, God looks at the heart (like he did in choosing David as king), so all of us are to do no less with each other, especially when searching for the one you are to spend the rest of your life married to.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/15/2004 10:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Sex and sex drives...
I think what needs to be addressed as sinful needs to be compulsive, self-gratifying, addictive behavior. For some people its hormones. For others it heroine. And some others get so addicted to masking their sorrow with whatever makes 'em feel good for the moment. It all breaks down when we entertain a little lustful thought and then what the hay! Just have it all! You already sinned spiritually! And then we panic! AWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!
I have a sex drive... I also have a food drive. That goes crazy when there's hot pizza in the room. I just can't stop with one, two, three slices. Sometimes it half a pizza. And then what's for dessert. I also have a compulsive cleaning disorder. If I have some big project due and its wieghing on my mind... I can't get started unless the whole house is spotless. I'm a freak! You can ask my wife.
Wahoo | | Back to Top | | |
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/15/2004 10:58 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
By the Holy Spirit's power, all Christian men should be able to get aroused by Christian women...
Someday, when you are running for president or some big time televangelist, they're gonna dig this up.
Wahoo | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/15/2004 11:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
John,
Where in the WORLD did you get the idea that I believe sex is sinful? I believe sex is wonderful, beautiful, awesome, the greatest physical act between a husband and wife and I want it sooooooo bad!
How did you get from me saying that men focusing mainly on women's external beauty is sinful to men's sex drives are sinful?
Hi Tigress. I inferred you meant sex is sinful from the following:
quote:
After the Fall humans' bodies controlled their minds and spirits so that they aren't driven by right decisions, but instead by their physical desires, i.e. they're only attracted to the most beautiful-looking person. This is unjust to the less attractive people and injustice is a mark of the Fall.
It is my understanding that sex is beautiful and a God-given gift, and that without sexual attraction (for men, this is inherently visual), sex would not happen. Your idea that people should "look with their spiritual eyes" honestly makes no sense at all to the testosterone-driven male. It sounds to me like you're saying "the male visual fixation with sex is sinful (i.e., fallen)." If you're not, then I confess I don't know precisely what it is you're trying to say.
I see absolutely nothing in the curse God pronounced upon Adam and Eve to indicate that somehow their inherent sex drives were affected in such a way as to make men all of the sudden more visually oriented than "spiritually" oriented. I also don't think there are many (if any) hormonally normal males who would even have a clue as to the meaning of "looking with spiritual eyes" at a woman means in the context of looking for a wife.
For example, several years ago while I was single and a music minister, a female friend of mine who was an excellent pianist and songwriter became attracted to me. I, however, had absolutely no physical attraction at all towards her. When she mentioned that she thought she had fallen in love with me, I had to gently make it clear that we were not meant for each other in that way. She was a very spiritual, godly, and talented lady, but there just wasn't any physical attraction that I could find for her.
Perhaps this sounds crass, but why would I (or any man) want to marry someone whom I wasn't attracted to? If there were no sexual attraction, why not just be friends? And if just friends, why marry? See what I mean? I am happy to say that when I finally did find the one for me, there was BOTH sexual attraction AND close friendship. However, if there had not been sexual attraction, there would not have been anything more than just friendship between us.
I realize others may see it differently than I do, and perhaps there are those who begin as friends and are able to truly develop a loving relationship worthy of marriage, but from my perspective and the perspective of most men I've discussed this with, if not for sex, marriage would not be very interesting to them. I realize that sounds cynical, but that's truly how men tend to view things. If you're married and not having a regular sex life with your spouse, you're just roommates.
Not saying the discernment is not a real need for all of us (because it very much is), just that when it comes to mating and dating, the first attraction for the guy will almost always be what he sees.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/15/2004 11:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Tigress,
My quoting you there... that was an attempt at humor.
I do see your point, and the counterpoint that sex drive is a lousy excuse for male incompetence. It can lead to impotence however. But, e'hem...
I understand what you are saying about men not taking interest in average or ugly looking women. But I think the same holds true for women as well. AND, whats more, the way you feel about yourself will make a very distinct impression on other's, male and female, impression of you.
I have known some women with the same complaint as you and it was hard to listen to them. They had no self-esteem and that resonnated in their whole life. I also know happy couples of the not so attractive order. The difference is in the self-esteem. I don't think I'm that cute but I am definately cuter than Steven Tyler. And he gets lots of chicks. I think that a girl's personality will shine through, even before a date or even a conversation, if she is confident in herself. Good men will pick up that scent and you will find the one who is suitable to be your mate.
dig?
Wahoo | | Back to Top | | |
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/15/2004 11:28 AM (GMT -6) | | John Earp,
I think you will agree that desires, though not sinful in themselves, should not be the determining factor in the choices we make.
Am I correct?
Wahoo | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/15/2004 11:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Wahoo
John Earp,
I think you will agree that desires, though not sinful in themselves, should not be the determining factor in the choices we make.
Am I correct?
Wahoo
How can one choose without desire to choose? If one fights a particular tempting desire and is able to win, the contrary desire is what he/she acted upon.
For example, say a man notices a very beautiful woman. Let's say he continues to focus his eyes and attention on her, and natural impulses inevitably begin to occur. As he continues in this train of thought, he must either:
1. Continue to fixate upon this woman's beauty, and will soon commit
sexual sin in his mind.
Or, he will:
2. Turn his thoughts away from her beauty before he commits sexual sin in his mind.
Whichever of the two he decides, his greatest desire determines his choice. If he is truly desiring to live a godly life, he will choose #2, of course, in which case it is clear that his desire for godliness was greater than his desire for sexual gratification in this case.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 4/15/2004 11:50 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
And my point is that they CAN help what attracts them.
No, they can't. Psychologists have proven that in less than three seconds of meeting someone we have already sized them up and decided whether we like them or not, even if unconsciously. This applies all the more to sexual attraction. It's either there or it isn't.
quote:
We're all to be fighting the bondage of our physical desires and seeking what truly matters within others and that's not their external beauty.
See, this is what I mean when I say that what you seem to be implying that the sex drive itself is sinful.
quote:
Christian men should be doing everything they can to see women as Jesus sees women.
Ah, but Jesus was not looking for a wife, now was He?
John,
Once again, you're misunderstanding me. I'm saying that the male sex drive is to be mainly aroused by the inner beauty of a woman. Essentially I'm saying that you should get an erection by the sexiness of a woman's personality even if externally she's not considered sexy by the world's standards. To say that God made men to mainly get aroused visually is a cop-out and is unfair to the women of the world who simply are not that good-looking. I don't believe God would do such a horrible thing to us women. So, either:
a.) God made most men only able to get aroused visually while at the same time only made a tiny amount of women who are actually beautiful, thus making it impossible for men to find a woman they want, and for women to find a man that wants them.
or
b.) God never intended for men to be so visually stimulated, but the Fall made that happen so now there's an imbalance of supply and demand, as it were. So men need to tap into the Spirit's power in order to use those spiritual eyes that God originally gave them to view potential mates.
When you said that a gals' confidence is a key factor in how guys get attracted to women, you're saying the same thing I am. I'm not disagreeing with you there. I'm not talking about women who have low self-esteem. I'm talking about truly inwardly healthy women who aren't beautiful externally who still get passed over by guys because the guys haven't taken the time to get to know them and let the sexual arousal to them develop.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't have chemistry or attraction to a woman when you're seeking a wife. In fact that wouldn't be fair to either of you. I'm saying that instead of just dismissing the ugly gals who have wonderful, healthy insides - stop and get to know them better and see what happens. The chemistry may very well occur. All I'm saying here is men need to stop rushing to snatch up the .001% of beautiful women because reality is, they're just aren't that many women like that. Reality is most men simply aren't going to find a beautiful woman because there are maybe one of those out of every 1000 women. So, they need to take the time to get to know those of us less beautiful ones who are left over, and I'm POSITIVE that if they did that, they could develop MAJOR sexual attraction to them with the Spirit's help. Reality is, they can get sexually aroused by a woman who they aren't initially attracted to if they just took the time to let the attraction develop. Patience and waiting...taking the time to get to know each other...letting the arousal develop...not just running straight to the externally beautiful women (who may not have beautiful insides by the way) but practicing patience because sometimes attraction doesn't happen right away - again because we're living in a fallen world and we don't see things clearly - we see things in the haze of physical and worldly standards - not Godly ones. But, Jesus made it possible for us to do that now.
Understand?
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/15/2004 11:59 AM (GMT -6) | | John Earp,
That's a good point. Thanks for clarifying.
Now we have identified two different desires pulling from differnt angles. The choice made identifies which desire is the strongest? I don't think so. You would agree that we have to apply some undesirables when choosing to live a godly life?
Wahoo | | Back to Top | | |
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msekee
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 30
| Posted 4/15/2004 12:24 PM (GMT -6) | | You know, if men were only (or even mostly) attracted to a woman by how she looks, how would all these internet affairs happen that you hear about? I heard someone say once that studies have shown it's not how the woman looks but how the woman makes the man feel, at least where affairs are concerned.
I also agree with something Tigress mentioned about self-esteem. We teach people how to treat us by expecting either to be accepted or rejected by them. If we, who know ourselves better than other people, don't think we are worthy of affection, other people are going to have trouble disagreeing.
Don't sell yourself short, Tigress. You are obviously a very intelligent and charming woman. Eventually, some man who is looking for more than a blond airhead to have on his arm is going to find you. My sister just found a guy on e-harmony. They had a pretty serious "attraction" going through phone calls etc. before they even met.
Chemistry and attraction are not necessarily the same animal. | | Back to Top | | |
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/15/2004 12:24 PM (GMT -6) | | That's really hard to accept. I think I have read somewhere that bearing the cross or the cost of discipleship actually means doing undesirable things. That is in the physical sense. I am just trying to connect the dots here. Your gonna have to explain that.
Wahoo | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/15/2004 12:26 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
And my point is that they CAN help what attracts them.
No, they can't. Psychologists have proven that in less than three seconds of meeting someone we have already sized them up and decided whether we like them or not, even if unconsciously. This applies all the more to sexual attraction. It's either there or it isn't.
quote:
We're all to be fighting the bondage of our physical desires and seeking what truly matters within others and that's not their external beauty.
See, this is what I mean when I say that what you seem to be implying that the sex drive itself is sinful.
quote:
Christian men should be doing everything they can to see women as Jesus sees women.
Ah, but Jesus was not looking for a wife, now was He?
John,
Once again, you're misunderstanding me.
How so?
quote:
I'm saying that the male sex drive is to be mainly aroused by the inner beauty of a woman.
And I'm saying you have no idea what it's like to be a man. The idea you propose is completely foreign to the male experience. I can guarantee that.
quote:
Essentially I'm saying that you should get an erection by the sexiness of a woman's personality even if externally she's not considered sexy by the world's standards.
For men, it works like this: He can get turned on by a woman's physical beauty even if he doesn't know anything else about her at first. However, if she turns out to be a bitch, he's probably not going to continue to be attracted to her for long.  But what you are describing is exactly OPPOSITE to what men experience.
quote:
To say that God made men to mainly get aroused visually is a cop-out and is unfair to the women of the world who simply are not that good-looking.
I'm defintely not trying to "cop-out" of anything, Tigress. It is not a cop-out to state the facts. "Just the facts, ma'am."
quote:
I don't believe God would do such a horrible thing to us women.
O.K.
quote:
So, either:
a.) God made most men only able to get aroused visually while at the same time only made a tiny amount of women who are actually beautiful, thus making it impossible for men to find a woman they want, and for women to find a man that wants them.
or
b.) God never intended for men to be so visually stimulated, but the Fall made that happen so now there's an imbalance of supply and demand, as it were. So men need to tap into the Spirit's power in order to use those spiritual eyes that God originally gave them to view potential mates.
I would add one other option to your two: God created men to be visually attracted to woman, but men also are realistic in that they know they can't all have a wife who looks like a super-model. Therefore, a guy tends to look for the best-looking woman he can get (all other considerations aside, like spirituality, personality, etc. of course--I'm only talking about the initial impression he gets, not the subsequent courtship).
quote:
When you said that a gals' confidence is a key factor in how guys get attracted to women, you're saying the same thing I am. I'm not disagreeing with you there. I'm not talking about women who have low self-esteem. I'm talking about truly inwardly healthy women who aren't beautiful externally who still get passed over by guys because the guys haven't taken the time to get to know them and let the sexual arousal to them develop.
I hear ya. However, that was Wahoo who brought that up, I think.
quote:
I'm not saying that you shouldn't have chemistry or attraction to a woman when you're seeking a wife. In fact that wouldn't be fair to either of you. I'm saying that instead of just dismissing the ugly gals who have wonderful, healthy insides - stop and get to know them better and see what happens. The chemistry may very well occur. All I'm saying here is men need to stop rushing to snatch up the .001% of beautiful women because reality is, they're just aren't that many women like that. Reality is most men simply aren't going to find a beautiful woman because there are maybe one of those out of every 1000 women. So, they need to take the time to get to know those of us less beautiful ones who are left over, and I'm POSITIVE that if they did that, they could develop MAJOR sexual attraction to them with the Spirit's help. Reality is, they can get sexually aroused by a woman who they aren't initially attracted to if they just took the time to let the attraction develop. Patience and waiting...taking the time to get to know each other...letting the arousal develop...not just running straight to the externally beautiful women (who may not have beautiful insides by the way) but practicing patience because sometimes attraction doesn't happen right away - again because we're living in a fallen world and we don't see things clearly - we see things in the haze of physical and worldly standards - not Godly ones. But, Jesus made it possible for us to do that now.
Ever heard the saying, "Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness?"
What I hear you saying, Tigress, is that you are really disgusted with the way guys pick women, that it is unfair, etc. The problem is, you admit on the other hand that "chemistry" and "attraction" are necessary (which is precisely ALL I've been saying). So which is it?
On a hypothetical scale of 1 to 10, are there no guys that you would be interested in that would be on roughtly the same point on the scale as you?
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/15/2004 12:26 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by msekee
I heard someone say once that studies have shown it's not how the woman looks but how the woman makes the man feel, at least where affairs are concerned.
I too have heard that in most affairs, the mistress is actually not as attractive as the wife. Its not about the beauty, but about the adventure of having an affair.
Wahoo | | Back to Top | | |
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