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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 4/12/2004 11:29 AM (GMT -6) |   | Okay, this has been really troubling me for the last few years. I think I'm a really abnormal female because of all the non-typical traits I have. For instance, while staying at my aunt and uncle's house this weekend, my uncle was really upset with me for not helping my aunts and my mom clean up the kitchen after meals. Part of my reasoning for just sitting there instead of helping out was because the three of them would jump right to it immediately so they got everything done quickly and there was barely any room to move around their small kitchen, anyway. So, I just didn't bother to do anything.
At one point he said to me, "Why don't you help out?" And I just jokingly said that it looked like they had it all under control. I looked at my mom when I said that, and she looked a bit embarassed by me. My uncle was visibly upset the next day, too. But, his daughter had come over then and was helping out before I could do anything so I figured they had all the help they needed.
I've always been this way. While visiting with a couple of my Christian friends a few years ago, the wife was doing whatever in the kitchen, while I preferred to stay in the living room and talk with her husband and our other male friend. I knew that I should have gone in to help her, but I was more interested in discussing things with the guys.
I guess aside from the fact that I hate manual labor of any kind and I'm pretty lazy, I just resent the fact that because I'm a female I have to clean up after a meal while all the men get to sit around in the living room after eating. I mean, my uncle didn't get after his 18-year-old grandson to help clean up, but he got after me, his 30-year-old God-daughter who he sees way less frequently than his grandson. My uncle didn't help out either. Plus, I think it's rude to expect your guests to do anything, anyway. In my home I do all the work and don't want anyone to help me clean up. It's just easier that way.
Other female traits that I don't have are as follows:
1. I'm not good at serving people like most women do. I hate serving in the capacity of helping out around the house, especially. They always say that women do everything for everyone else, and don't know how to take time out for themselves. I'm totally the opposite of that. In fact I'm not very self-sacrificing at all when it comes to doing things I hate doing, like cleaning and running errands, etc.
2. I don't desire intimacy with friends the way most women do. I just prefer to have a buddy or two to call up and hang out with sometime and do fun stuff even if we haven't spoken for a long time. I know guys like to do that, but if women don't speak to each other for a while they get all like, "Why would I want to spend time with you when you haven't even called me in X amount of months? What kind of friend are you?" But guys do that all the time, and they're great with each other, and I'd be the same way, too if I could find other women who were that laid back.
3. I can't stand being around kids, and I don't want to have any. I've never desired to have any. If in a situation where all the women are fawning over a baby or child, I'm usually standing in a corner bored out of my skull.
4. I took some personality tests that my brother gave me (I don't remember what they were anymore) and I scored much higher in the areas that are more male-like and lower in the female-like areas. These areas were in regard to attitudes, feelings, beliefs and interests, etc.
5. I hate chick-flicks, shopping for clothes and talking on the phone.
6. I'm healthily aroused by men, but also by women's breasts for some reason - particularly and mainly big ones.
7. There are other things that I can't really think of now.
Anyway, I'm just really troubled by how abnormal I seem to be. I've never found a gal that I truly feel comfortable and happy to be friends with, and I feel like I get along better with guys but most Christians tend to think that it's better to have same-sex close friends and not opposite-sex close friends. In fact, in my last WHC small group there was a huge conflict about it that they had with me where they had me do a group counseling session with two WHC pastors and a few of those from the group, because they said I was crossing boundaries by trying to be such close friends with a guy in the group. Granted, I did go overboard with him because I had a crush on him and when he rejected me I threatened suicide, (and that was only talk - I wouldn't have actually done it), but even so, they ALL said that women and men simply should not have even intimate friendships with each other, either - meaning that I couldn't say the same personal things to a guy that I could say to a woman.
I'm sorry this is so long, but I feel like I can't have good relationship with anyone, because I'm not satisfied with female friendships, but most Christians won't allow for a woman to have close male friends. Plus, the fact that I sort of have a double-standard attitude about it anyway because I would be majorly jealous if my boyfriend or husband was close to another woman as friends. AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!! What can I do?
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/12/2004 12:21 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
I think you have answered your own question, Tigress. 
No I haven't because I'm totally confused right now! I don't have even one close friend, and I want to be close to someone but I can't because nothing works!
I certainly mean no offense, Tigress, but if I were you I would seek some kind of psychological or perhaps even psychiatric help. Not saying you're "crazy," not at all, but there are lots of good psychiatric drugs available today which can help someone's apparently out-of-control behavior. From what you have said, you do seem to have trouble knowing what is appropriate social behavior, and that's probably not all your fault. In any case, I would encourage you to find some help. Not being able to make or keep friends sounds like a very lonely and heartbroken life to live.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 4/12/2004 12:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
I think you have answered your own question, Tigress.
No I haven't because I'm totally confused right now! I don't have even one close friend, and I want to be close to someone but I can't because nothing works!
I certainly mean no offense, Tigress, but if I were you I would seek some kind of psychological or perhaps even psychiatric help. Not saying you're "crazy," not at all, but there are lots of good psychiatric drugs available today which can help someone's apparently out-of-control behavior. From what you have said, you do seem to have trouble knowing what is appropriate social behavior, and that's probably not all your fault. In any case, I would encourage you to find some help. Not being able to make or keep friends sounds like a very lonely and heartbroken life to live.
I'm already on medication and the last counselor I saw did as much as she could do for me. I won't ever threaten suicide again. That was just an act of desperation. But, right now the issue is just how am I ever going to find a close friend if no one satisfies. I'd prefer the type of friendships that men have with each other, but women won't do that, and apparently it's not appropriate for a woman to have that same kind of friendship with a man. So, I'm stuck. I can't win. I'm doomed to be without close friends forever. I mean I can't even name one female friend that I have that could be a bridesmaid in my wedding (if I were to get married, which I hope to someday.) I'm not going to be something I'm not, which is like the typical female. But, that leaves me alone, without any close friends. It's not fair.
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/12/2004 1:02 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
I'm already on medication and the last counselor I saw did as much as she could do for me. I won't ever threaten suicide again. That was just an act of desperation. But, right now the issue is just how am I ever going to find a close friend if no one satisfies. I'd prefer the type of friendships that men have with each other, but women won't do that, and apparently it's not appropriate for a woman to have that same kind of friendship with a man. So, I'm stuck. I can't win. I'm doomed to be without close friends forever. I mean I can't even name one female friend that I have that could be a bridesmaid in my wedding (if I were to get married, which I hope to someday.) I'm not going to be something I'm not, which is like the typical female. But, that leaves me alone, without any close friends. It's not fair.
I'm truly sorry to hear of your difficulties. I will certainly be praying for you. I also would encourage you not to give up on finding good spiritual and/or psychological counseling or even a better medication. (Speaking as one who has had a lot of benefit from antidepressant medications). Not saying psych drugs are the cure-all, but major breakthroughs in how the brain works have literally revolutionized the quality of life for many.
For example, my father did not realize he had ADD and dyslexia until he had finished grad school with straight As. His physician and psychologist speculated that he must have found a way to "think around the ADD and dyslexia" to be able to do so well in school. When he finally was placed on medication for the ADD, Dad said that the racing thoughts, confusion, and nearly constant frustration seemed to vanish.
Anyway, if I were you, I wouldn't give up on finding a good counselor. I would also pester my doctor until he found a drug that really helped. As you probably know, not all doctors are proficient in treating brain chemistry.
2c more.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 4/12/2004 1:58 PM (GMT -6) | | Tigress: I grew up with four sisters (no brothers) and what you described sounds like my youngest sister. I see nothing wrong with most of what you said. Frankly, it sounds to me like your family is trying to get you to fit their stereotypes. If I were you, I'd ask my uncle why HE isn't helping with the cleaning up. I find the whole thing quite offensive, but that may be cause I stay home with my kids, do the majority of the cleaning up and cooking.
It sounds like he has the problem not you...I don't find anything particularly wrong with you. I think its more our culture (the Christian one) and how they stereotype women and men.
Hang in there...and thanks for being so honest...
BTW, my youngest sister hates kids...she barely tolerates mine, and only as a favor to me. I got no problem with that. I think its wonderful if someone realizes they aren't made for parenthood. | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 4/12/2004 2:07 PM (GMT -6) | | I agree with feelinahole -- it's our culture that defines who cleans up after Easter dinner. I believe you cannot force friendship nor intimacy. Be at peace just having acquaintances and allow yourself the opportunity to find people who fit for you. I have found that as far as close friendships are concerned I either click or I don't with a person. In my jar I have many acquaintances (precious pebbles) in my life but only a few good friends (good size stones). The only solid rock I have is Jesus. These good stones slowly came about and grew from the size of a pebble to a stone. These relationships took time but most importantly they took the right chemistry.
Tigress, be who God created YOU to be. Be content with yourself. Be your own best friend. Cultivate a deep friendship with Jesus and ask him to show you where to invest your time. Too often when people don't fit into "the box" all those standing inside want to point the finger and say there is something wrong with the one who walks the path less taken. I thank God for who you are. I appreciate your input on this board. YOU ARE SPECIAL! | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/12/2004 2:34 PM (GMT -6) | | Okay, what the hey...
quote:
1. I'm not good at serving people like most women do. I hate serving in the capacity of helping out around the house, especially. They always say that women do everything for everyone else, and don't know how to take time out for themselves. I'm totally the opposite of that. In fact I'm not very self-sacrificing at all when it comes to doing things I hate doing, like cleaning and running errands, etc.
This just sounds like you're basically selfish, not necessarily disturbed.
quote:
2. I don't desire intimacy with friends the way most women do. I just prefer to have a buddy or two to call up and hang out with sometime and do fun stuff even if we haven't spoken for a long time. I know guys like to do that, but if women don't speak to each other for a while they get all like, "Why would I want to spend time with you when you haven't even called me in X amount of months? What kind of friend are you?" But guys do that all the time, and they're great with each other, and I'd be the same way, too if I could find other women who were that laid back.
3. I can't stand being around kids, and I don't want to have any. I've never desired to have any. If in a situation where all the women are fawning over a baby or child, I'm usually standing in a corner bored out of my skull.
4. I took some personality tests that my brother gave me (I don't remember what they were anymore) and I scored much higher in the areas that are more male-like and lower in the female-like areas. These areas were in regard to attitudes, feelings, beliefs and interests, etc.
5. I hate chick-flicks, shopping for clothes and talking on the phone.
6. I'm healthily aroused by men, but also by women's breasts for some reason - particularly and mainly big ones.
None of these things sound particularly worrisome, unless you really DO what to have some lasting female friendships, get married, or have children. If you don't, then I wouldn't worry about these things too much.
quote:
Anyway, I'm just really troubled by how abnormal I seem to be. I've never found a gal that I truly feel comfortable and happy to be friends with, and I feel like I get along better with guys but most Christians tend to think that it's better to have same-sex close friends and not opposite-sex close friends.
It would be very surprising if you were able to find a non-gay male friend who would be happy as "just friends." Most heterosexual men usually are not interested in "just being friends" with women.
quote:
In fact, in my last WHC small group there was a huge conflict about it that they had with me where they had me do a group counseling session with two WHC pastors and a few of those from the group, because they said I was crossing boundaries by trying to be such close friends with a guy in the group. Granted, I did go overboard with him because I had a crush on him and when he rejected me I threatened suicide, (and that was only talk - I wouldn't have actually done it), but even so, they ALL said that women and men simply should not have even intimate friendships with each other, either - meaning that I couldn't say the same personal things to a guy that I could say to a woman.
Not sure what "personal things" would be off limits, but if your group leaders felt you were acting in an inappropriate way, that's something to consider. I doubt they were just trying to be mean. The manipulative stuff and especially threatening suicide sounds like it would be counterproductive to good relationships.
quote:
I'm sorry this is so long, but I feel like I can't have good relationship with anyone, because I'm not satisfied with female friendships, but most Christians won't allow for a woman to have close male friends. Plus, the fact that I sort of have a double-standard attitude about it anyway because I would be majorly jealous if my boyfriend or husband was close to another woman as friends.
Again, it sounds to me like your biggest problem is that you are selfish and manipulative in your relationships (and therefore dysfunctional).
P.S.: I seem to recall a while back on the board where you indicated you indeed did have some emotional problems. I no doubt read that knowledge into your original post. Sorry if I was too excessive in my assessment of you as a result. On further reflection, I really don't think you're that far gone; it just sounds like you need to work on developing some good balanced friendships
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 4/12/2004 2:51 PM (GMT -6) | | Just for clarification purposes, I wouldn't call someone selfish just because their gifting may not be in the area of hospitality. Tigress, God made you with particular giftings and strengths that complete the body of Christ. Find YOUR gifting which are usually closely tied with interests and passions.
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/12/2004 4:02 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Sounds to me like, "There is no situation so bad that someone can't add a little bit of guit and make it worse."
Take refuge in the gospel! There is a hope for selfishness to be made clean.
Hi Spen,
I am definitely not trying to pile on guilt or assign blame. Given your view of all people as being inherently unremittingly evil, why would it matter to you what I said to her, anyway?
All I'm doing is trying to reflect back to Tigress what I hear her saying, and trying to offer a little bit of layperson's advice. I'm honestly not interested in making her feel worse than she already does.
Tigress: If you feel my comments here have been unkind or infair, please forgive me. I am beginning to regret having engaged in this discussion. My only desire in this was to try to help. Sorry for any unintentional damage I may have done.
Sincerely,
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 4/12/2004 4:56 PM (GMT -6) | | John Earpquote:
Tigress: If you feel my comments here have been unkind or infair, please forgive me. I am beginning to regret having engaged in this discussion. My only desire in this was to try to help. Sorry for any unintentional damage I may have done.
Aren't we all trying to offer encouraging words to Tigress to help her see things from our own perspectives. John, since your intention was to be helpful why would you regret offering your input? I speak for myself that in what I posted I wasn't disagreeing with you but rather trying to add from my lenses to what Tigress was asking and interacting with what was posted as I did so.
The bottom line to any conversation is to keep in mind what our personal agenda or intention is? If our intention is to be helpful then I believe we have done our best. Each person has been given the gift to take what they want and leave the rest from the conversation. The aim is to allow the Holy Spirit to guide our words. John, the way I am understanding you, you were trying to be helpful and reflect back to a dear sister. I think that Tigress has the gift to choose what of your post is helpful and true for herself.
God bless you all!
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/12/2004 5:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
John, since your intention was to be helpful why would you regret offering your input?
A couple of considerations led me to respond as I did. First, it seemed to me that some here were implying that I was "judging" Tigress (which I definitely was not, at least not in the sense of passing sentence/meting out ultimate condemnation).
Second, I have a real tendency to be too free with advice sometimes. Personality tests I have taken have often said I should be a psychiatrist, psychologist, or counselor, based on how I tend to interact with people. Sometimes I do regret offering advice, and wonder if I just should've kept my mouth shut. I think just about any conscientious counselor (or even armchair shrink, as myself) would.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 4/13/2004 2:49 AM (GMT -6) | | John,
I understand why you questioned your responding. I still believe that if you speak with a loving intent to help then there does not need to be any regret and no one has the right to judge that. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/13/2004 4:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Quest,
It seems like you mean that any action or word that we do is only dependent upon a "loving intent," as judged by us, to make it good and not sinful. I think that you cannot mean that. If John said falsehood with loving intent, then there still is something to regret, especially because it was falsehood (this is hypothetical, no comment on what was said). If John understands that he spoke falsely or did a wrong action WITH LOVING INTENT, it doesn't change the harmful effect of the action. There recently was a loving mother in the news who killed her children because she believed that God had told her to. She desired to love and obey God and loved her children - good loving intentions. She was also deluded and her actions were wrong and worthy of regretting because they were objectively wrong. Intent doesn't make a bad action "good" or stupid advice "wise." I wouild like to believe that we all do stupid things with good intentions. I hope that we can all express regret and confess them as stupid afterwards.
Hello Spenlake,
Maybe if you weren’t so bent on using only Scripture to discern the Holy Spirit and used some common sense and most importantly, discern the Holy Spirit by the fruit that it bears you would not be so confused. Have you created some kind of schizo God whose intention is to love using lies in the process? What kind of oxymoron statement is “a loving mother that kills her children?” This mindset is what leads to the belief that you can kill your own children and God told you to do it. You would be better off with a loving mystic, grandma would be safer.
Maybe this is the Scripture that the mother you referred to used to discern her God lead intent.
Genesis 22:2 (NIV)
Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."
Genesis 22:7 (NIV)
Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?"
"Yes, my son?" Abraham replied.
"The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"
Genesis 22:8 (NIV)
Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together.
God bless all the children of the world, Heaven was made for such. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/13/2004 4:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Spark,
The main point of my post, however, is that it is proper for John to feel and express regret for improper words or bad actions, regardless of the intent with which he did them. If they were damaging, then Tigress is still left damaged, and this is still regrettable. If we only judge the intent of actions and not the actions themselves, then it is Tigress' problem that John damaged her because he had good intentions. We shoot the victim. John is told to not even feel or express regret. I believe that this is not proper.
I am not claiming, in fact I said otherwise, that the actions were loving - just perhaps the intent. In your Scriptures you also give an example of a loving father, Abraham, willing to sacrifice his own son out of love for God. Perhaps this is what confused this woman. Unfortunately she did not understand how to objectively discern the words of this god who told her to kill her children. As opposed to her spirit guide, the true ontological God commanded and wrote to us that child sacrifice was an abomination to Him. This mother could have known objectively that this voice wasn't God and obeyed if in faith, regardless of the voices. On that same mountain hundreds of years later a Loving Father did provide the ultimate Lamb and give His son to die for us.
Hebrew 11:17 tells us why Abrham could offer up Isaac with loving intent, because he believed that God could raise him from the dead.
quote:
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; it was he to whom it was said, “IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED.” He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.
Unfortunately, this is the same reason that this deluded mother gave to the investigators. She believed that God was going to raise them from the dead based upon a spirit guide. However, Abraham had the objective promise of God and this woman had only the lying words of her spirit guide and the false-truth that she INtologically experienced. The objective Word commanding to the contrary was not obeyed or believed. Instead, she believed the false-truth so much that she sacrificed her sons, that she loved, to prove it.
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 4/13/2004 5:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Only we all could start out talking about my problems and end up in a discussion about Abraham sacrificing Isaac!
Leave it to all of us on this board.
Spen Lake, I do not believe that what John wrote is in the same league of the mother who killed her children. The reason I say this is because John did not say that God told him to say those exact words although they were contrary to love, as did that mother. Killing is NEVER a loving action. However, responding to someone who is trying to sort out if they are abnormal is different. John used the knowledge and resources he had to bring counsel to Tigress. His reason for doing so was to lovingly try to help a sister who was searching..... This is what I do not believe needs to be regreted. Tigress has the opportunity to take what fits for her and leave the rest. NONE of us speak with complete accuracy in our every word. We offer what we hav from a loving heart. We act as the poor widow who gave from her heart. | | Back to Top | | |
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