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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 5/12/2003 5:03 AM (GMT -6) |   | Empiress said:
[I assumed when I read Tigress's opening sentence on this thread that the discussion was going to point to the deeper theological concept behind such a scene (which sounds clearly like a Biblical image). Instead the whole thread overlooks that point entirely and merely delves into a moralistic discussion... as if the movie itself was immoral for even portraying such a thing. I found it odd given the Biblical connotations (although obviously I haven't seen the movie yet either).]
Tigress replies:
Even though this movie as well as others sometimes take ideas from the Bible and Judaism and Christianity to draw parallels or whatever in order to make a good story, doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing. Satan uses this very tactic in inspiring new false religions and cults all the time, as well as the old ones that have been around since the Fall of humanity. I don't think it's wise to get all enthusiastic about any secular movie doing something like this as it only twists the true Gospel of Jesus.
Neo as a Christlike savior type is far less than perfect and the means by which he and the others use to "save" the world are very worldly indeed. Granted we cannot expect non-Christian moviemakers to fully understand the true Gospel message, but neither should we allow ourselves to get excited over their flawed and misleading interpretations of Scripture either as they only diminish and water down the entire Truth of what Jesus did for us.
It has been humanity's insistence on making God to be what it wants Him to be that has caused humanity to be forever separated from Him. It all started with Cain. When he tried to give God his offering that wasn't acceptable to God he murdered Abel who's offering was acceptable to God. This was the beginning of the religions that do this to this day - worshipping God the way Man wants to, and not the way God wants us to. That's why God had such stringent laws about worship and sacrifice in the O.T. Those who did it wrong were often killed by Him on the spot. He also wanted them to get rid of the high places because those were based upon pagan worship. God wanted the Israelites to all worship Him in a central location, i.e. Jerusalem. These were all types of Jesus. Jesus is the only way to the Father. No other way will do.
Films like the Matrix and the Star Wars epic may employ certain ideas taken from Judaism and Christianity, but they misconstrue what God truly wants. Now obviously I know that these movies aren't religions although some people actually make them into religions. But, it's important to remember that Satan is using them to lead non-Christians further away from the Truth. It only causes more confusion.
After saying all this, I sound like a hypocrite when I say that I really like the Star Wars movies and I liked the Matrix. I guess I'm just saying that we should take the movies as it is, and not try to see it as something that it's not and therefore use that as an excuse to say it's okay to show all these sexually explicit scenes. No film needs these types of images to make them better films. If these scenes are that necessary then the films simply shouldn't be made as it's a sin for the actors to be engaging in those activities anyway.
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
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S.B.G.
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 143
| Posted 5/12/2003 5:25 AM (GMT -6) | | To tell you the truth, some may find your talk of sending e-mails between yourself and your lover husband to be an obsession. Anyway…
Would you be one of the "some" ?
S.B.G.
To understand and to be understood is bliss. | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 5/12/2003 5:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Oh, by the way, one last thing. As I said on the "It's coming..." thread. Check out,
www.thefilmforum.com
There, you do more than just talk about sex in film. You actually get "hands on" experience on why some portrayals of sex can be vital to a film.
Also, the William Romanowski link that I mentioned above is actually a Mormon link. The better link is this:
www.brazospress.com/eyeswideopen/index.html
Check out his chapter summaries.
Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
www.darwinhobbs.com | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 5/12/2003 5:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Would you be one of the "some" ?
S.B.G.
How would I know?
Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
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S.B.G.
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 143
| Posted 5/12/2003 5:39 AM (GMT -6) | | How would I know?
Good answer, you demonstrate your wisdom. 
I will ponder your other comments when I have more time, thanks for your sensitivity and input.
S.B.G.
To understand and to be understood is bliss. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 5/12/2003 6:06 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Allow me to just throw something out there for ya to chew on. Let me ask you about pornography. Just what is it about pornography that is makes it sinful? Is it the images? Is it two strangers having sex without commitment? What if they are married and very committed to each other? Is it the obsession with the physical? Close up of male and female genitalia? Exploitation of women? Exploitation of men? Exploitation of children?
God never meant for anyone else to see a husband and wife having sex with each other. It is only meant for their two sets of eyes alone. Just as each individual Christian must have time with God completely alone with Him for growth in their relationship with each other, so it is with sex in marriage. It is not right for people to see other people having sex in any circumstance and it's no different when actors are simulating the sex act. It's still meant to express the same thing. If a viewer is enjoying watching the sex act, simulated or not, that viewer is sinning. Enjoying watching the sex act is the same thing a lust and adultery in God's sight. How could one enjoy watching sex scenes anyway? They're clearly abusing a gift that God only intended for private use between a man and his wife. How can people not see that? I guess it just shows that Satan really has desensitized many Christians into thinking things like this are okay. It's a slippery slope. Each time a movie tried to show a little more and a little more of sexual content, they desensitized people into thinking, "Oh, that's not so bad. This film wouldn't have worked without that scene." Totally making people think that it was necessary, and making them forget that if it really was that necessary, then the film should never have been made in the first place! Instead of being turned off by these scenes, they've caused people to think they're somehow so necessary, when instead Christians should have been outraged by them for skewing God's original design for sex!
I, for one, am really ticked off that the liklihood of my future husband having never seen another woman's naked body is next to nil because of all these sex and nude scenes in movies! I won't have been the one and only woman who he's ever seen naked before, even if he never engaged in sexual acts with other women. I read somewhere that there's a high percentage of men who upon seeing their wives/girlfriends breasts for he first time, are extremely disappointed at what they saw. It's because of all the ideallized images that are thrown at them in movies, and everywhere else in the media! Something as precious as his wife's body, which is most likely not going to compare with those images, will be disappointing to him! It really saddens me. Lately I've been in tears and crying out to God to fix my breasts before I get married, because of all the visible flaws in them, and let me tell you there are many, and I keep worrying that my future husband will be majorly disappointed when he sees me for the first time. I don't want my wedding night to be one in which he's dissappointed, and I'm crying because of it! But, because of our culture, that's pretty much inevitable!
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
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S.B.G.
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 143
| Posted 5/12/2003 6:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Oh Tigress!
I am so sorry you are experiencing these emotions! I have had many of the exact thoughts myself. This is the very thing I want to spare my daughters, and you are right, society makes it next to impossible. I have struggled to remind myself that my value comes from Christ and my beauty is beyond physical. You have every right to be angry that society has robbed you a degree of exclusive sexual intimacy, and every right to expect that your husband would only look at you. Be assured, there really are men capable of sexual purity and depth,and just as we all change the closer we come to Christ, a man who has been exposed to nudity in the past can surrender those images to Jesus and focus with joy only on you! Stay in prayer and don't settle for less than you deserve!
I agree, if the sex scene was "necessary" for that particular scene, then I shouldn't be watching it. Producers can get the gist across without actually showing explicit acts or nudity. I rarely watch movies, but if I do, it's video so I can leave the room or fast forward over the offensive parts. Titanic for instance, it actually would have been MORE romantic if we just saw their eyes as Jack was sketching Rose. My husband glady left the room until I fast forwarded over that scene, he doesn't want to see her anymore than I do!
For a woman to reveal her nudity to her husband is the most vulnerable giving of herself she can offer---Pornography is an intruder, and has no right to interfere.
S.B.G.
P.S. Thanks for the support SeeSaw, I can honestly say the things of this world lose their appeal when we discover how unendingly fascinating and satisfying things of God are!
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Seesaw
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Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 70
| Posted 5/12/2003 7:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Even though this movie as well as others sometimes take ideas from the Bible and Judaism and Christianity to draw parallels or whatever in order to make a good story, doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing. Satan uses this very tactic in inspiring new false religions and cults all the time, as well as the old ones that have been around since the Fall of humanity. I don't think it's wise to get all enthusiastic about any secular movie doing something like this as it only twists the true Gospel of Jesus.
Very well said Tigress & I'd agree with you.
So many t.v. shows, movies, and even commercials use sex to sell. There's alot of people who don't want to watch something if it doesn't involve beautiful people and sex or sexual inuendos, etc. It's pretty rare it seems to find something without a comment on sex or sex itself.
I didn't see the first Matrix and won't see the second simply because the genre doesn't interest me at all, and also I can't stand violence! It's the same with sex. I don't want to WATCH people having sex and I don't want to hear them moaning and groaning!! I don't want to WATCH someone killing someone! Sure, I read it in the Bible but MINUS all the graphics. (I don't find Song of Solomon to be graphically immoral). I CANNOT STAND watching a person in terror as someone stalks them and then shoots them in front of their family member, etc. It does my mind and my heart NO good whatsoever to feed myself with these type of images. I have had nightmares before after watching certain scenes which caused me to realize that these scenes and images really affect you.
Can you imagine yourself being in a grocery store and you watch a person get shot right in front of you? You would be traumatized for awhile. Yet, we see so many scenes like this and worse, some of us EVERY day, and think nothing of them. They are actors so it's not "real"; yet, we're still watching someone murder someone. Also, I don't want to see someone's naked body or people groping each other. If they're married, I don't want to see it. If they're not married, don't want to see it. It's like sex is not sacred at all anymore. When you can see it everywhere, it loses it's sacredness.
Of course, these are my own personal convinctions and I realize most people have other convictions about it. I do understand though where Tigress & SBG are coming from.
p.s. I have seen some good movies that have had a violent act in them, etc. and I have enjoyed the movie but I wish they had somehow not shown the violent act (like the person getting shot). And I did like Star Wars.
We become desensitized though to this stuff.
Edited by - Seesaw on 05/12/2003 12:25:56 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 5/12/2003 8:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Soooo...does this mean you guys disagree with me? 
Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
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Tigress
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Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 5/12/2003 8:50 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Soooo...does this mean you guys disagree with me?
DUH!
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 5/12/2003 9:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Let me put it this way...
I really wouldn't want my future husband to be seeing all sorts of naked women. Just as most men wouldn't want their wives seeing or being with other men. In my mind, a man looking at a naked woman and getting off on it is the same thing as actually being with her. It hurts me deeply. It hurt me deeply when I dated other guys who openly admitted doing this freely. They saw nothing wrong with it and couldn't understand why I got so upset about it. But, to me it was the same thing as cheating. And lest anyone argue that they were only boyfriends and not husbands, let me remind you that if a guy can't control his thoughts before marriage, he sure as heck won't be able to afterwards. His mind doesn't just automatically change to thinking only about his wife after he says his vows. He needs to work on controlling his thoughts as soon as they begin to plague him.
This all coincides with what I wrote earlier about false expectations. Even if a man amazingly doesn't get off on images of naked women, he's still seeing a highly ideallized and impossible-to-meet standard of female beauty. Did you know that much of what is seen in photos and movies is digitally enhanced to make women's bodies look flawless and the shape they want it to look like? Reality is that women's breasts are not all the perfect size or shape, often one breast is larger than the other, blue veins show all over them, hair grows around the nipples, stretch marks can occur on the lower parts of the breasts, freckles and other blemishes might be present, and pimples can sometimes occur on the chest and breasts. Sometimes the nipples and areolas aren't all that attractive-looking either, and all this BEFORE a woman gets pregnant!
All you men out there, if you haven't been married yet, please don't be surprised and try not to act disappointed if your future wives have these kinds of flaws, because chances are, they probably will have at least one if not more than one of these imperfections that I've described above.
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 5/12/2003 9:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Tigress says:quote:
Did you know that much of what is seen in photos...
I thought you said pornography was a bad thing, why this graphic description of a female body?
peace and love, don
---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 5/12/2003 9:50 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Tigress says:quote:
Did you know that much of what is seen in photos...
I thought you said pornography was a bad thing, why this graphic description of a female body?
I hope you're joking...because if you think that describing physical imperfections and deformities is pornography you've got something seriously wrong with you! My descriptions were no different than describing the symptoms of other skin and body illnesses and defects.
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 5/12/2003 10:10 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 5/13/2003 2:16 AM (GMT -6) | | It's not what's outside that counts but what's inside that counts. You know, the blood, the guts, the bones, the pancreas....
Even though the skies are blue, don't they let the sunshine through? | | Back to Top | | |
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Empiress
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363
| Posted 5/13/2003 9:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Seesaw said: quote:
We become desensitized though to this stuff.
It's true we do become desensitized and it's sad, especially for those of us who want to "hold every thought captive to Christ" and uphold purity. It makes it much more difficult!
A few points though...
First related to violence and trauma: it is something of a luxury of our wealthy western culture that we do not have to be confronted with the reality of violence and suffering on a day to day basis. In most nations of the world, poverty, starvation, trauma, and violence are part of every day life. I feel very uncomfortable with priveledged westerners intentionally shielding themselves from anything that is upsetting or traumatic because it distances us from the reality of the experiences of the less fortunate. Like everything, there is a balance and healthy limit to this, but it's something to be aware of too.
I've also seen this distancing spoil the Church in the US: people become so concerned about shielding themselves and are so sheltered that they simply cannot tolerate being in poor communities or working with the homeless where trauma and violence is commonplace. For example, street kids speak with incredibly foul and explicitly sexual language and act in very shocking ways. Time and time again I have observed my fellow Christians be so intolerable and upset by it that they cannot possibly reach out and help them, let alone truly befriend and love them. They use "purity" as justification for not investing in these kids. I do not want us to use "purity" as an excuse to keep the experience of the poor in our world at a distance.
Secondly...something needs to be said about culture and sex. The "problem" is NOT nudity or sex in and of itself. In MANY cultures (including our ancestors), men and women see nudity daily from the day they are born...men and women do not cover their genitals. This regular viewing of the human body is not some kind of "contamination" because it is understood as natural and normal. Also in many of these cultures, it is very difficult for couples to have privacy and it is not unusual for children to see adults having sex or for anyone to stumble upon a couple having sex outdoors in a semi-private location. Again, I do not believe there is anything immoral about this intrinsically.
What is "wrong" is that our culture distorts nudity and sex and has developed unhealthy attitudes surrounding it. And contrary to what we might suspect, having Victorian and Puritanical attitudes towards sex only feeds this unhealthy attitude. The more sex and nudity are treated as evil and taboo, the more it becomes "criminalized" and seen as immoral to the point that to view ANY naked human body or hear ANY sexual sound or see ANY sexual gesture incites lust and/or extreme disgust. There is something very wrong about this! Sex and our bodies are "good" and from God before they are bad.
The solutions lies in changing attitudes, not in perpetuating this kind of gnostic-anti-body anti-sex type of thinking. Pornography, like Brandon said, is more about context and one's attitude than anything else. In our culture, almost any nudity has become problematic because women have been so used and abused by unhealthy attitudes towards sex and nudity and instantly become objects of lust.
But here is the good news for people like Tigress:
If we can accept that the problem lies in one's attitude more than it does in merely seeing a naked human body or something sexual, then there is hope for our spouses! A man or woman who seeks to hold every thought captive to Christ and refuses to allow society to control their perspective on sex and nudity can enter into a marriage having been inadvertently exposed to these images in our culture without it being something that contaminates them or causes them to feel anything less than complete love and joy at the site of their spouse's body. Love, Christ like love, is certainly more than skin deep! When someone is filled with God's love, they will see their partner through God's eyes. That is something even our cultural attitudes cannot take away because our minds are being transformed into the mind of Christ and we are called to be in the world but not of the world. All things are possible through God for those that trust God.
My advice then Tigress, as I would advise many of the students I serve as a chaplain, (and apologies in advance for giving un-asked for advice) would be to pray, not that God would physically alter you, but that God would totally redeem and purify your future husband's mind and heart so that he will see and love you just as you are with Christ like love without allowing unhealthy cultural attitudes to distort him...and that he would rejoice over you the way the Song of Songs lover rejoices over his beloved.
Peace and all good,
~E
Edited by - Empiress on 05/13/2003 2:20:44 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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BJS
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Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 5/13/2003 9:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Preach it, Empiress. PREACH it. 
Brett
"Siste viator et memento mori." | | Back to Top | | |
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LDR
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 5/13/2003 10:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Jesus offers us men the very purity and exclusive desire for our wives that He has for His Love, the Church.
For far too long I did not internalize that component of faith. I mostly read Ephesians 5 for nice theory instead of personal experience. Rather, I entertained mental defilement when it occurred, and even sought such defilement (though I did not call it that in my self-talk) when I wanted, until Jesus allowed me to reap consequences of my infidelity in sudden and gut-wrenching brokenness.
Through deepening repentance and taking every thought captive to Jesus, I have found over the past few years the indescribable joys of purity that He always intended me to have. My wife takes comforting refuge in this purity, and I would never EVER want to rob her of it!
Every woman, unmarried or married, deserves to have the pure love of Christ and the security it affords, shown to her--whether from her father, her brother(s), her male friends, and of course, her husband (-to-be).
May you be so blessed, dear Tigress!
Edited by - LDR on 05/13/2003 9:30:46 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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S.B.G.
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 143
| Posted 5/13/2003 10:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I've also seen this distancing spoil the Church in the US: people become so concerned about shielding themselves and are so sheltered that they simply cannot tolerate being in poor communities or working with the homeless where trauma and violence is commonplace. For example, street kids speak with incredibly foul and explicitly sexual language and act in very shocking ways. Time and time again I have observed my fellow Christians be so intolerable and upset by it that they cannot possibly reach out and help them, let alone truly befriend and love them. They use "purity" as justification for not investing in these kids. I do not want us to use "purity" as an excuse to keep the experience of the poor in our world at a distance.
This is an excellent point. This is where the importance of loving and not judging enters in. If someone is impure or vulgar in their sexual expression, there are reasons for it, and if we love someone, we will love them where they are and seek to understand and help them.
I attended a seminar taught by Al Larson (the TNT guy) and he gave such beautiful testimony of how he went from life as one of those street kids, doing drugs and pornography, to a man who is refined in his speech, pure in his thoughts and devoted to his wife. We must always strive to see beyond the outward behaviors to the person inside.
In talking with my husband about these things, he said when he sees a woman who is "on display" he feels sorry for her, not lustful. How much better it would be for her to save herself for her husband and have his sole attention and respect. But the best way to reach adults and teens who have been fed lies about their sexuality is to give them the respect they are craving and inspire them to desire purity.
S.B.G.
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 5/13/2003 11:27 AM (GMT -6) | | [quote}
First related to violence and trauma: it is something of a luxury of our wealthy western culture that we do not have to be confronted with the reality of violence and suffering on a day to day basis. In most nations of the world, poverty, starvation, trauma, and violence are part of every day life. I feel very uncomfortable with priveledged westerners intentionally shielding themselves from anything that is upsetting or traumatic because it distances us from the reality of the experiences of the less fortunate. Like everything, there is a balance and healthy limit to this, but it's something to be aware of too.[/quote}
I do not think seeing these types of things gratuitously portrayed in certain movies as being helpful for what you're describing here. Seeing them acted out in movies actually causes people to get more and more hardened and unaffected by when they see them in real life. Look at how some kids have reacted to it - all the school shooters, etc.
quote:
I've also seen this distancing spoil the Church in the US: people become so concerned about shielding themselves and are so sheltered that they simply cannot tolerate being in poor communities or working with the homeless where trauma and violence is commonplace. For example, street kids speak with incredibly foul and explicitly sexual language and act in very shocking ways. Time and time again I have observed my fellow Christians be so intolerable and upset by it that they cannot possibly reach out and help them, let alone truly befriend and love them. They use "purity" as justification for not investing in these kids. I do not want us to use "purity" as an excuse to keep the experience of the poor in our world at a distance.
This has nothing to do with movies and everything to do with a misinterpretation of Christ's commission to the world. Of course He wants us to be available to real people. But, that doesn't require seeing movies that contain this kind of stuff. Some Christians can use seeing movies like this to justify not being around the real thing by saying that it's enough to be aware of it and not be active in the real people's lives.
quote:
Secondly...something needs to be said about culture and sex. The "problem" is NOT nudity or sex in and of itself. In MANY cultures (including our ancestors), men and women see nudity daily from the day they are born...men and women do not cover their genitals. This regular viewing of the human body is not some kind of "contamination" because it is understood as natural and normal. Also in many of these cultures, it is very difficult for couples to have privacy and it is not unusual for children to see adults having sex or for anyone to stumble upon a couple having sex outdoors in a semi-private location. Again, I do not believe there is anything immoral about this intrinsically.
Yes...but all world cultures are influenced by the Fall of humanity so the practices in and of themselves are not necessarily benign. If God had intended humans to be running around naked in front of each other, He wouldn't have fashioned garments for Adam and Eve in the beginning after they Fell into sin. Before the Fall, humans could have been able to see each other purely, but now after the Fall, most humans simply cannot, no matter how much philosophying or anthropologizing you wanna do! (Are those real words?)
quote:
What is "wrong" is that our culture distorts nudity and sex and has developed unhealthy attitudes surrounding it. And contrary to what we might suspect, having Victorian and Puritanical attitudes towards sex only feeds this unhealthy attitude. The more sex and nudity are treated as evil and taboo, the more it becomes "criminalized" and seen as immoral to the point that to view ANY naked human body or hear ANY sexual sound or see ANY sexual gesture incites lust and/or extreme disgust. There is something very wrong about this! Sex and our bodies are "good" and from God before they are bad.
I'm here certainly not advocating treating human bodies and sex in this way. If you could see my own sexual fantasies you'd know I have a very healthy attitude about sex! But, as I said these images in the media only serve to train people in not being satisfied with any one person. They water-down sex and make it into a very primal and self-serving act. This is not God's design for sex either.
quote:
The solutions lies in changing attitudes, not in perpetuating this kind of gnostic-anti-body anti-sex type of thinking. Pornography, like Brandon said, is more about context and one's attitude than anything else. In our culture, almost any nudity has become problematic because women have been so used and abused by unhealthy attitudes towards sex and nudity and instantly become objects of lust.
But here is the good news for people like Tigress:
If we can accept that the problem lies in one's attitude more than it does in merely seeing a naked human body or something sexual, then there is hope for our spouses! A man or woman who seeks to hold every thought captive to Christ and refuses to allow society to control their perspective on sex and nudity can enter into a marriage having been inadvertently exposed to these images in our culture without it being something that contaminates them or causes them to feel anything less than complete love and joy at the site of their spouse's body. Love, Christ like love, is certainly more than skin deep! When someone is filled with God's love, they will see their partner through God's eyes. That is something even our cultural attitudes cannot take away because our minds are being transformed into the mind of Christ and we are called to be in the world but not of the world. All things are possible through God for those that trust God.
My advice then Tigress, as I would advise many of the students I serve as a chaplain, (and apologies in advance for giving un-asked for advice) would be to pray, not that God would physically alter you, but that God would totally redeem and purify your future husband's mind and heart so that he will see and love you just as you are with Christ like love without allowing unhealthy cultural attitudes to distort him...and that he would rejoice over you the way the Song of Songs lover rejoices over his beloved.
I guess I'm just wondering if I can truly ever trust men about this. My older brother says that any man, Christian or not, who says stuff like your husband said above is simply lying so as to avoid his wife's or girlfriend's anger, and that all men want perfect-looking women and they don't want their wives to age or gain wait or change - period. Even when I started crying in front of him he said this to me, not to be cruel but to be honest with me. He and all his work buddies sit around and complain about their wives and how they're not the women they married anymore because of their weight gain etc. (My brother's divorced now, though because his wife turned out to be somewhat mentally ill but she was a good liar and so hid it from him.) Anyway, I don't know how I'm ever going to believe that the guy I marry would ever truly be satisfied with my body. I mean, it really is very flawed in many places which cannot be altered short of cosmetic surgery which I don't believe God intended for most people except for those with severe birth defects and disfiguring injuries. What can I do?
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 5/13/2003 12:08 PM (GMT -6) | | I should add that I don't think that anyone should even feel like they need to get cosmetic surgery and that it really ticks me off that I've even resorted to wondering if I should get it myself!
I don't want to have to do that! But, I don't want to disappoint my future husband either. I need to learn how to trust him to love me as I am. Because if he truly loves me, he wouldn't expect me to go to those lengths to be aestetically pleasing to him. It's not fair! And I hate the fact that I've been reduced to thinking that I have no other option but surgery!
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
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Seesaw
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 70
| Posted 5/13/2003 12:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Tigress said, "I do not think seeing these types of things gratuitously portrayed in certain movies as being helpful for what you're describing here. Seeing them acted out in movies actually causes people to get more and more hardened and unaffected by when they see them in real life."
I echo that thought. I understand what you are saying Empiress but it is almost the mentality of doing something simply because the majority of the world is doing it. Many cultures also practice vodoo, have rampant prostitution, worship idols, and so forth. I can be pure and yet still relate to an impure person without participating in the impurity.
The Bible clearly tells us to have nothing to do with "deeds of darkness." Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of the darkness but rahther expose them. For it is shameful to even mention what the disobedient do in secret. Eph. 5:11,12
I notice a disturbing line of thinking and that is that in order to be a loving person one must either be like the sinner or not tell the sinner he is in sin. It seems as if there are those who think that if we do call sin for what it is "sin" it indicates that we are unloving and judgemental. The most unloving and judgemental people I know are nonChristians who participate in the sin and don't call it sin.
For example, the pornography guy who photographs underage girls. The male college student who kills another male because he is gay. The man who rapes a woman. The father who molests his daughter. And on.
In other words, nonChristians who don't distinguish between sin and righteousness are far more unloving than a Christian who lives a holy life, who calls sin sin, who does not participate in the sins of others, yet at the same time, can fully love those other people.
I am not talking about Pharasitical Christians but I think we are in error to assume that all Christians are Pharasitical and we make a grave error when we associate judgement with cruelty. We are to judge as far as we distinguish between right and wrong and we discern. If I take my daughter to a day care and I notice that the woman in charge curses, smokes, and lets the kids pull each other's hair, I WILL judge this woman in the aspect that I will see her actions being reflective of her heart. Because I will not want my daughter exposed to certain things, I will definitely "judge" any person running a day care.
We do this with our mates when dating them. We judge them! Are they trustworthy? Do they lie? Do they cheat? How do they treat others? We see a man telling lies and think, "He seems like a liar and I don't know if I can trust him. I don't feel comfortable dating him anymore." That is not wrong. What is wrong is to beat him over the head and to expose his sins in an arrogant or condemning way.
Tigress makes another excellent point: "This has nothing to do with movies and everything to do with a misinterpretation of Christ's commission to the world. Of course He wants us to be available to real people. But, that doesn't require seeing movies that contain this kind of stuff. Some Christians can use seeing movies like this to justify not being around the real thing by saying that it's enough to be aware of it and not be active in the real people's lives".
I KNOW full well that people kill people, that people have sex outside marriage, that people curse, and so on, but it does not require me to willingly expose myself to this when I don't need to be. Obviously, if I work in a place where I am around cursing, it might be unavoidable although I have found that I have earned respect of colleagues because of who I am (light) and out of respect, they watch what they say around me. I am still good friends with them but they know I am a Christian and respect it.
I think Tigress makes a good point too about people learning what the world is like through media vs. really being out in the world! I think if we were really out in the world, we'd see things are different than portrayed in media.
Tigress also comments "all world cultures are influenced by the Fall of humanity so the practices in and of themselves are not necessarily benign. If God had intended humans to be running around naked in front of each other, He wouldn't have fashioned garments for Adam and Eve in the beginning after they Fell into sin."
I also have thought this. Adam and Eve, after sinning, were aware of thier nakedness. God provided clothes for them. They no longer had perfectly pure minds and none of us do either! Thus, the need for clothing! And, yes, all world cultures are influenced by the fall and because a culture condones nakedness on display, it does not change that it is sinful. I mentioned above that some cultures still sacrifice babies, some condone prostitution and sell their daughters into this business, some cultures are very materialistic and worldly, some practice vodooo. We don't conform our actions and choices to what is cultural but to what is Biblical.
Tigress- pray about your future husband and give your fears to God. I have known and know some very godly men who are fully committed to their wives regardless of their wives weight gain or aging. There are also alot of men who place far too much emphasis on the outer appearance and I believe this is fed by our American culture that puts beauty on a pedastal, but not all men are this way. In fact, some men I know have said they don't want a woman like that. And remember, the man ages too! He gains weight, gets bald, and all sorts of stuff. Be very discerning in who you date and keep it always a matter of prayer so that you will find a man who will love you for who you are far above what you might look like!
p.s. I don't think there is anything wrong with "intentionally shielding" yourself from sin that you don't need to be exposed to. You can still love a person- whether homosexual, a prostitue, a homeless man, or even a rich man!- yet distance yourself from sin and have a very effective ministry to all people in your life.
Just as in the U.S., there are many people in other cultures who don't want to associate themselves with the poor, the unlovely, the sick, and so forth, but I think it is more a matter of rich vs. poor than it is about sheltering oneself.
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LDR
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 5/13/2003 5:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Tigress:
Just a thought re: your brother and his buddies . . . their restless dissatisfaction is theirs to own, not to project on those of us who have found perfect contentment and delight in our mates! If that's all women had to choose from it would be little wonder to see all women opt for female partners! Who would want such boorish jerks?! (Forgive me, Jesus, for judging!)
"Husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies." Even worldly guys seem quite capable of unabashed narcissism, preening, flexing, strutting, and bragging. So, why is it too much to ask a Christian guy just to love his wife as an extension of himself?
Not too much to ask, we agree. But then where are the guys who love like that? We find them hanging around Jesus, desperate, expectant, grateful for His ceaseless gifts to the undeserving! That's where my wife finds me day after day.
Is my wife "hard" to love? Not at all! She's gorgeous inside and out! But I am a boorish jerk apart from Jesus (1 Jh 1.8) so I dare not wander away from Him . . . for her sake . . . or my own!
LDR
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 5/14/2003 5:08 AM (GMT -6) | | People...
I hear what cha'll saying about "American values" in film. And believe me, I empathsize wit cha. And I mean, I EMPATHSIZE. For me, it is not so much my looks that I'm concerned about, for I am good looking and every woman wants me. So I have no problem in that department, COUGH! COUGH! COUGH! 
My problem is how the movies portray relationships and how that is brought to bear on mine (relationships) and others relationship with me. Also identity. It really screws up my identity, the way gender roles are portrayed. Geez...I hate that. We truly live in a fairy tale kinda world. A Cinderella type. That fireworks kiss. The realization that your ambitions can only be realized through marriage to the right person where you fall in love and live happily ever after. That ain't real. Don't work that way.
Sidebar: Don't get me wrong, Christians can have happy endings in their works of art, but not the kind that are contrived and fabricated, because they are not sufficiently justified by the course of events in the narrative. (i.e. Schindler's List is one of the more authentic ones. T.V. sitcoms are more of the contrived kind).End sidebar
And this is why we need Christian involvement in the arts. If yer gonna be a good critic (and believe me, I'm not, but I'm getting better at it) one needs to be able to discern the cultural values that inform characterizations, drive stories and determine acceptable resolutions and be able to evaluate these according to Christian principles. To limit Christian criticism of the arts to confessional and moral content i.e. in terms of good/bad, right/wrong dichotomies, one will have a hard time evaluating popular art beyond the most superficial level. And the reason for this, is because one is, at that point, not watching movies or T.V. or listening to music as an artistic experience that requires one to interpret and evaluate a piece of artwork. We need to be "as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves." (Matt 10:16) And that only comes by being actively engaged in the task of studying carefully, critically and suspiciously what has occurred.
Now some here are concerned that this being "engaged" in the culture will have an effect on their minds and spiritual lives. While I believe there are good reasons to be concerned about the impact of the arts (some of the most dangerous forms of impact are VERY subtle i.e. melodrama, therefore Christians are not immuned) Christians don't have to be vulnerable either.
By participating in the arts we learn discernment. As a matter of fact, as soon as we encounter a work of art we are already engaged (in a number of ways) in the world the artist has created. But this also suggests (implicitly) that we are standing in judgement of it.
If I am correct, when Jesus said that it is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, but what comes out, (Mark 7:14-16) it may be that impurity a comes from a FAITH-CENTERED HEART and the realm of human thought. If that is so, this means that cultural ideals, beliefs and values don not go DIRECTLY into a person's heart. That is to say, they do not have an immediate affect, but are mediated and processed through the filters of faith (habits of the heart?).
P.S. Thanks for the kudos. D? Put a smile on my face as usual dawg.
Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
www.darwinhobbs.com
Edited by - BBBCanada on 05/14/2003 10:10:30 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 5/14/2003 5:52 AM (GMT -6) | | What if the writer of II Samuel had access to 70mm motion picture film and was telling the story of David and Bathsheba,
(a) would Bathsheba not be shown at all
(b) shown, but bathing with clothes on
(c) shown, very beautiful and naked
I'd suppose that (c) would have been the choice. The story teller wanted us to know the extreme attraction David had for this girl, leading to the extreme measures he took to have her.
My thought that is that it's all about the story and how I as the story teller can evoke in you the emotions I desire to communicate.
peace and love, don
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