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My family and I will pass on the matrix. We desire to live pure lives and find more pleasure involved in things that stimulate us to pure thinking rather than bring pleasure to our debased man. We crucified that man with Christ.

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Heh. More power to ya. How about you just pray for old impure, licentious people like me who would so increase his debased man's stockhold of mental perversion. Bad Meph. Bad. [smacks his own hand]

Going to get the ticket now. Hehe.

The Ravenously Debased

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First, the person who was calling your position puritannical was Miss E, otherwise known as Empiress and I think she makes some good points. Christians draw upon Victorian sentiments of romantic love, when, for example, they write "Christian romance novels." Have you ever walked into your local Christian bookstore and seen some of these books? Just check out the front cover. It is a love that is pure but PASSIONLESS and almost sexless! I mean there is no "loins that throb," and no "breasts that heave." While some secular romance novels make light of sexuality by detaching it from deeply committed relationships and higlighting fleeting encounters, these Christian romance novels distort and cheapen life when they deny the force of sexual passion and desire. There are ways in which to put the erotic in books and film without "enticing one to sin", as in pornography. There's a huge difference. And I don't mean "Show her bathing, but only show her bare shoulders/ back to get the point across." Or as they use to do on the Walton's (or was that Little Outhouse on the Praire as Redd Foxx [I miss that guy] said on Sanford and Son?) when Ma and Pa went and had sex, they walked into the bedroom and closed the door. HA! Cute! But talk about taking the "twang" out of the lemon. For sure some the explicitness in film will "entice" you, but for some of us, it does diddly. And there are films that just concentrate on the physical so much so that no matter how mature of a Christian you are you need to know when to walk. Know what I mean?

Secondly, I am not questioning the right in which direction you want to take this thread. But I do have a right question your putting words in my post. It wasn't THAT big of a deal, but please, don't do it again. If you want to quote somebody, go back through the thread and see who EXACTLY you are quoting.

Third, again, I will restate my position. I empathsize with where you are coming from concerning the portrayal of women in popular art. Basically everyone has to be a Barbie doll, i.e. American Idol, Baywatch. There is some legitimacy to your concern. But my fear is when, as I said above, we judge works of art according to the confessional or moral content alone. Believe me, Christians have come far in the last twenty or so years. There was a time when only that which spoke of religious themes, or JPM's (Jesus's per minute) was worthy of being viewed, listened to, or wrote, painted about. So the fact that you (and many "cultural Christians") are willing to watch certain t.v. shows, listen to music, etc, that speak about things other than the religious, (also created by NON-CHRISTIANS) shows that we are more mature than where we were (by yesterdays and fundamentalistic standards, you would be very WORLDLY), yet we have a way to go.

Fourth, even more disturbing than just the "Barbie doll" portrayal is American sentiments that are far more subtle nature. If we judge works of art by moral criticism alone, we tend to ignore artistic features, formal characteristics, the relation of style to content and the construction of meaning. For example there are works of art that will have absolutely no foul language, total absence of sexual immorality, lack of nudity but are very post modernistic in their outlook which most Christians would condemn as moral relativism. Did you know that some of the worst films in America were John Wayne films? Yet these are films that most Christians would let their ten year old watch.

All I'm asking is that you go deeper than even what you have done here on this thread. And the ONLY way you can do that is by actively engaging the culture discerning as you go. The more you discern, the less the blindly you walk.

Now, on to "tickets.com" for "The Matrix."

P.S. Meph Man, my son and I have been reading Calvin and Hobbes together. One comic has Calvin blowing his nose, looking at his hanky and say, "Hey! No brains!"

Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
www.darwinhobbs.com

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Hmmm...interesting..."Calvin and Hobbes" is my favorite comic strip! I wasn't putting words in your mouth. My statement about people calling my position Puritannical was in general. If anyone thought I meant that that you said that, they were wrong. I probably didn't make myself clear. But, I did interpret what you were saying as in agreement with Empiress' statement. So, again, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

Lastly, (we'd better knock this off or they're gonna ask us to start e-mailing each other) I'm being so adamant about this because I don't see you or most men really grasping how absolutely serious this issue of emotional pain is in regards to media images. I and so many females have severe emotional pain because of poor self-image as a direct result of the onslaught of all these images. I have to take anti-depression and anxiety medication for goodness' sake! And many other females have to as well. Granted that's not only b/c of our culture's treatment of us in the media, but it's a huge contributing factor. So, I guess I'm just looking for men to say, "Yes. Movies and photos, TV and music, and secular art is the avenue which this kind of emotional abuse is happening and therefore we as Christians need to not only be aware of and sensitive to our Christian sisters about it, but also prove that love in our actions by not buying into it."



Tigress

The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7

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But I think there must always be true balance. Christian has made a decision for his/her family to be godly, but that is their decision. Just because a christian goes to Matrix doesn't make them less godly.

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Are these posts moderated at all? What is allowed in here and not allowed?

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I understand what you are saying Empiress but it is almost the mentality of doing something simply because the majority of the world is doing it. Many cultures also practice vodoo, have rampant prostitution, worship idols, and so forth. I can be pure and yet still relate to an impure person without participating in the impurity.

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Doesn't anyone else think that both free will and determinism are being presented as competing forces and that determinism=lack of hope/faith while free will=hope/faith?

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Actually, I think that something else is being said. I think it's showing that overemphasis on either free will OR determinism is misguided as hell. Neo's preoccupation with freedom seemed to blind him to just how much the determined dependability of technology actually PROVIDED for the existence of his freedom. (Would Neo be jack without the Matrix itself??) He obviously didn't understand just HOW predictable human beings themselves can really be. The Architect's obsession with mathematical precision and determinism seemed to blind him (at least early on) to the power of choice and hope that human beings seem to need to live. (The Oracle showed him his error.)

Both eventually learned, in some regard, that there is INTERPLAY between both that had to be at least acknowledged, if not respected. Both choice AND determinism can be overstated. Heh.

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I think the "architect" is lying and is the "Deciever" who tries to steal Neo's hope and creates a crisis of faith by saying everything is predetermined! I saw the movie actualling equating determinism with evil/the enemy to humanity because it takes away all meaning and hope. Anyone agree?

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Nah. I think that Architect was telling the truth. He basically played on the "conditions" that the One(s) usually carried: a sense of solidarity for the human race AS A WHOLE. And placed a hellified choice before the One: Does the needs of the many truly outweigh the desires of the one? The outcome seemed easily predictable to me. Moreover, even IF the One was so irrational and/or self-centered enough to choose his OWN way, the Machine forces were overwhelming (as the devastated human counterstrike showed)...AND they had done this 6 times before.


[Digression: If you think about it, it was a BRILLIANT idea to keep human indeterminacy within CONTROLLABLE levels! Knowing that an anomalous "One" would eventually emerge sometime, ALLOW for a resistance to exist and create some type of quasi-religious messianic deal to go along with it. The foolish idiots have the existential feelings of choice and hope...that is directed JUST as the Machines generally wish. Using human tendencies towards faith and hope as another means of control. Simply brilliant.]

The only thing is the CHANCE happening with Neo's "merging" with Mr. Smith from the first movie. It seems obvious that this occurance is NEW to the whole dynamic...and that will make all the difference.


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Something that I didn't think many people caught was the amazing, controlling power of dogmatic belief and the despair at its destruction in the face of the facts. I drew an immediate line of similarity between Morpheus' unshakable faith in his belief and the "true believers" in many religions, including Christianity. I thought about the first Matrix. And how Morpheus' encounter with the Oracle changed his life and made him a true believer. If you recall, even the Oracle herself said that he believed "blindly" Remember, he said that he had been looking for Neo his entire life...which at least translates to a long time. He believed in the prophecy. His ardent belief not only lead him to becoming an influential, charismatic leader among the human (among the most infamous to the Machines), but actually lead him to finding the One. And of course, his finding the One only served to BOLSTER his belief in the prophecy. And the so-called triumph of the One bolstered it even more.

By the time of the second movie, Morpheus "knows" that victory is certain. He kept just calling it a matter of time. His faith in Neo and the fulfilment of the prophecy is resolute...hence his moving speech at Zion and his mini-soliloquy to his strike force right before they started their main operation. And even though he gave lip-service to the possibility that he was wrong, he actually gave no real thought to it. He was just a true believer....he was bound for a fall.

My good friend and I couldn't help but laugh out loud in the theatre at Morpheus' face when Neo hit in with PART of the truth (I can't even imagine how he would have felt if Neo would have told him that this has all been done 5 times before!!) and when he saw his ship destroyed. It honestly never really occured to him that everything he believed may have been a fabrication. What made this so ironic was that, being who he was, he should have known just HOW adept the Machines were at deception and control. Ah, well. I noticed how Trinity and Neo weren't NEARLY as devastated as Morpheus was. But hey, they probably weren't AS deeply invested, right?

I immediate thought of the many Christians who are so rigidly resolute in their theological positions. The "soon" coming of Christ. The speculations on heaven and hell. The "irrefutable" evidences that they use to justify their beliefs. Maybe they've felt the "undeniable" feelings of God's love and spirit move upon them. Maybe they've had a Wesleyan warming of the heart. Maybe they've been convinced by a great preacher. By whatever means, they've become true believers. Converted and MAKING converts (or disciples, if you choose). And somehow, many of them seem to find JUST the right corroborating experiences or information they need to keep believing. Now, do I have a problem with believing? Heck, no. I think that a person can rationally hold belief (via principle of belief conservation). Nor do I have a problem with a person fully dedicating themselves to their belief...LIVING it. What I do have a problem with is the single-minded, blind adherence to their belief where things that should be held as TENTATIVE are held as CERTAINTIES. You'd think that some of these people would be able to look at ALL the evidences a tad more objectively. You'd think that some of these people could have a LITTLE more ambiguity in their theologies. But nope. They know that they know that they know. Beliefs are CERTAINTIES. And what happens when things get hectic...when other facts seem to contradict their current beliefs? Rationalization. Postdiction. Denial. Possibly depair-filled revolt. I've personally seen the last one happen more than once.

And I also thought of how many Christians are controlled like so much sheep by a few who MANIPULATE the faith and hopes of the masses towards their own agendas. Boy, it's easy. "Turn to your neighbor and say..." Given church history, how can we remain so friggin fundamentally ignorant of the power of religion to CONTROL. Jesus is coming back, people. Give till yer hearts are content! Heh.


Whatever.

There are so many uncertainties when it comes to religious belief and such, it amazes me that so many people place so much on it...to the point that their lives mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING without it. Just like Morpheus felt about his OWN existence within the context of the prophecy.

[Digression: Did y'all notice the constant emphasis on "purpose" in the movie? EVERYONE was on it. How even Mr. Smith was ticked because he felt that Neo had robbed him of HIS purpose, because he was free of the Matrix. To me, he felt the bittersweet feeling of being SEPARATED from his codependently link to the Matrix...for he had yet to find his OWN meaning. How many Christians are just like this? If Christianity turned out not to be true, some of them would probably take a gun to their head. They would not even be able to imagine themselves otherwise. Seriously.]

At any rate, I suppose that I laughed at Morpheus' situation when I should have felt sorry for him. Oh, well. He's not the first person it's happened to...and he won't be the last. I'll feel sorry for the next one.


Well, enough of my nonsense. I've got to go.

Holla,



"Smile. It could be worse." --from a good friend.

Edited by - MephEternal on 05/16/2003 10:36:29 AM

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Christian: are you saying BBB cannot disagree with Tigress and state why without being judgmental? Or is that judgmental? A person can judge a decision by another person without passing judgment on that person's heart.

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If there a "sin" out there, leave it to christians to blow it all out of proportion. I know I do...
I do like, however, that regardless of how good or bad this issue of Matrix is, it gets people talking about some important issues...God can use just about anything to get is message across is what I say...

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Again, well stated Honorman!

We have touched on the deeper issues of the effects of the media on women's self-esteem and men's self control. Whether or not this movie does or does not have an orgy, this has been an interesting discussion!

S.B.G.

To understand and to be understood is bliss.

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If there a "sin" out there, leave it to christians to blow it all out of proportion. I know I do...

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To the adulterer justifying his relationship, for us to say, "Stop it. It is wrong" may be taken as unloving even though it might be delivered with nothing but love.

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That's a big beef I have with open view. Seems the love in open view is the same as anything goes and don't your dare say a thing bout that! Love in open view is more like a free for all with no boundaries. I've been browsing here a bit before joining and have seen it in what I've read. There's a group in here who got the put-downs and the sarcastic jokes mastered! You talk the talk but don't walk the walk!

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