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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 5/21/2003 2:43 AM (GMT -6) |   | Shell,
That's what I was think'n too. I mean, isn't that substantiated by:
quote:
("we all know what you're going to do, don't we. Already you can feel the flush of emotion overwhelming your reasoning...yada yada)
Somehow, choosing the door to save Trinity is also "within the plans" of the Architect all along.
Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
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Eli
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Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 44
| Posted 5/22/2003 6:46 PM (GMT -6) | | Ok, I skimmed most of the messages in here, but it's late and I don't have the energy to read all of them  , so if this has been said already, I apologize.
Greg, I disagree with your take on the Oracle. She's played such a positive role in the whole movie, that while it is conceded that she is the "Mother" of the Matrix, I think the Architect was using that to coerce Neo into making the decision to re-enter the source. If you remember, one of the Agents (or possibly the new villian, I can't remember ) says to tell the Oracle that her time is almost up. Not to mention the lengths she's gone to protecting herself, I believe she is working towards a different end than the Architect. I think she led Neo to the Architect in order to reveal to him more of the past and just how everything is working. She knew Neo well enough to know how he would choose!
Now... heh, work with me on this one because I've been bouncing ideas around non-stop since I saw the movie last night, so this is kinda out there and I may have mistook alot of conversation to be foreshadowing that wasn't. Humm... I'm having difficulty putting my thoughts together... ok, forget how I come to this conclusion, heh, but I think the Oracle is striving to bring back the almost 'symbiotic' relationship between humans and machines before the war. The conversation Neo had with the counsel guy was a bit of a tipoff for me, he rambles and I don't think he really knew what he was getting at, but he made some really insightful points on the relationship we have with machines, what we view as control, is actually complete reliance. And if you turn it around to the machines, they are having the same issue, they need us to survive. I think the counsel is starting to realise that they cannot win the war, at least in the "humans are victorious, death to machines" kind of way that their war commander is hoping for. That's why they're putting so much effort into Neo and Morpheus. Humm... I had another point and I lost it.
Bah, ok so anyway, what I see Matrix: Revolutions bringing about, is a return to the peaceful co-habitation of the earth. In the end, each side will be divided into two factions, those who want their race to be the only one (the war chief/Architect/Smith) and those who want harmony among the races (the Oracle/Neo). In the end I believe Love will be the deciding factor (...and there was much rejoicing).
Well then, this was probably completely unintelligible, but it makes sense in my head  .
On a side note, Greg, I recently started attending your church. I love the atmosphere and your sermons are awesome (enough so, that I'm willing to drive there from St. Cloud every, er, almost every Sunday ).
"...it is fools, they say, who learn by experience. But since they do at least learn, let a fool bring his experience into the common stock that wiser men may profit by it." -C.S. Lewis
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Eli
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Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 44
| Posted 5/23/2003 6:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Also, someone mentioned the special effects not being as impressive as the first one. I don't think you knew what to look for. I spent that entire movie (or near enough) in awe at what they were accomplishing, seemlessly. They easily matched the first movie for new tricks and advances in the special effects biz.
Although your point about being desensitized was right on. I guess you have to be a nerd nowadays to really appreciate whats being accomplished.
"...it is fools, they say, who learn by experience. But since they do at least learn, let a fool bring his experience into the common stock that wiser men may profit by it." -C.S. Lewis
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 5/23/2003 9:47 AM (GMT -6) | | What Eli said about some of the humans and machines wanting a symbiotic relationship seems to make sense. When Neo was in the real world and he was able to stop those squidlike machines, it seemed as though he was sort of both human and machine. Maybe this is sort of like how Jesus is both God and Man and therefore the mediator between the two of us. Maybe Neo is supposed to take on this role. Maybe that's the ultimate choice he'll have to make. He already seems to be connected to the machines neurologically as is evidenced by that scene I described above. He's possibly like the Star Trek Borg queen, only he's fully human, unlike her.
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
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GregBoyd
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Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 5/23/2003 12:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Eli, on reflection, I think you're more likely to be right than I regarding the door prediction. If Neo choose AGAINST the Architect, it would make more sense, at least in the short run, which is why I am perhaps (only perhaps) projecting this onto the movie. It fits better with the free will vs. determinism motif.
So, if Neo played into the prediction of the Architect, did the Architect INTEND Trinity to be saved? Yet he said "There's no chance to save her. Trinity is going to die? Was he speaking truthfully here? Or did he underestimate the "power of the One"?
It's conceivable that the Architect DID underestimate the power of Neo, since this also seems to be a theme rising up throughout the movie. He has "supernatural" powers that blow everyone away, and even seem to now trickle over into "reality" (viz. his power to stop the spider machines).
I wonder... just wonder... if there isn't some sort of radical kenotic christology being worked out here where Neo has a sort of amnesia about who he is -- and who he is is... well... GOD. Or atleast the Architect of a meta-matrix that encompasses BOTH reality and "the matrix."
Or, maybe we're over-thinking this whole thing.
About the Oracle... Eli, I really think she's part of the evil system. She thinks she's a rebel, just like the agent(s) think he/their rebels -- but they think that only because they're programed to think that -- just like the Key Master -- and EVERYBODY is being jerked around by the puppetmaster Architect. ALL help Neo get to the Architect... just as the Architect planned.
The question we're left with -- esp. if the Architect predicted the RIGHT door that Neo walked through -- is this: is there ANYTHING that's NOT planned by the Architect?
Well, his equation has yet to come out right... stupid free will.
And Trinity is saved... or was that planned?
And Neo has 24 hours to save humankind, proving the Architect wrong... but he's in a comma, and its 5 months till the 3d movie comes out.
And here we are... all being controlled by the producers of The Matrix. Aghhhhhhh.
Greg
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/23/2003 2:40 PM (GMT -6) | | I am of the opinion that the central point of the MR is best understood through its contrast with TM. In TM, Neo was discovered to be the messiah who would save humans from the Matrix and destroy the evil programs that enslaved humans. Now in MR, Neo has been rescuing people for some time. However, the end is far from clear, since Neo is just a man, more preoccupied with his love for Trinity than his messianic-status, outside of the Matrix and the Sentinels are about to destroy Zion.
My first impression about Zion was how it was not so different from the Matrix. It too has its control and survives based on an elaborate structure and sophisticated technology. This foreshadows the ending where Neo begins to operate "outside the matrix" in the way he can "within the matrix".
Neo's discussion with the Counselor pointed for me, not so much to the need for humans and machines to co-exist, it prepped me for Neo's meetings with Seraph and the Oracle and Agent Smith. The underlying idea here is that humans and machines are not intrinsically that different. The manicheistic struggle between the two is undermined, by the relevation that Oracle apparently has free-will. She has evolved beyond what her initial purpose was and is in conflict with the architect. Just as the Merovingian evolved into the debase unloving materialist he is. As Persephone pointed out, he was not always like that, he used to be more like Neo. The point is that, while we tend to think of programs as automatons, the beginning of the movie clears away this notion. It also hints at the fact that the Oracle is capable of influencing people, like Neo, and foreseeing/determining aspects of the future. These are all features of her agency, not indicators that all is predetermined. One could view the Oracle within the light of the African-American experience of Christianity. This religion was given them as a form of social control to keep them in their place, but they took it and transformed it into what gave them the strength to transform the Racist United States of America. So just because the One is meant to be a form of social-control, doesn't deny its actual liberating power.
It is my supposition that she gave Neo the dreams about Trinity dying so as to condition his choice that led to what door he would choose. The main choice was to love Trinity above and beyond anything else in the world. It was because of this choice, the Oracle spoke of him as having already chosen what he was going to do. Perhaps, the dreams of losing her was what made Neo realize how important she was to him. Perhaps, the failure of the others was determined by Oracle and the good programs as necessary so that Oracle would enter the matrix and put herself in the situation where she would be killed by the agent.
The blurring of the key distinction between humans and programs/machines is then further reemphasized by the Agent Smiths, who demonstrates his own ability to evolve by becoming more human and virus-like. Just as Neo is becoming more and more like a program with a further raising of consciousness regarding what is the Matrix, Smith is becoming more human. That and the Merovingian's lust for power, the rivalry between Smith and the other agents, people's ability to be transformed into agent's at will and Persephone's desire to feel the love that exists between Neo and Trinity all point to the same thing: Not only do we need each other, Humans and Programs are not that different from each other. The battle is not between Man and Machine, but Good and Evil. However, what exactly ought to be the relationship between humans and machines and in-betweens has yet to be determined. It needs to be worked out.
Which leads me to the Architect. The main theme of the Architect is that deterministic ontologies are instruments of control, the obverse of what the Merovingian said about free-will/choice. His harmonies of near mathematical precision stands in stark contrast to the evolving states of those programs within the matrix, whereby Oracle came to believe that Neo really is the One not predestined to the fate of his predecessors, and their conflict. The Architect did not program Neo's love for Trinity, as shown by his remarks concerning how Neo was different. That was freely chosen. However, since the Architect can read Neo's mind, it seems to me his remarks do not reflect a prescience, but rather him manipulating Neo into believing that all is going as he planned.
This reflects the notion that a belief in determinism, or that God is in Control, is a device for control. It implies that any attempt to change our fallen answers to the problems of order can be countered as challenging the authority of God, who is in control.
However, if what the Architect said is true regarding the consequences of Neo choosing the door he did, all humans hooked up to the matrix died. If that is the case then it seems unlikely that the Sentinels really did destroy everyone in Zion. If they did that then how will they grow more batteries for them to subsist on? So I think the ship that picked them up is commanded by humans controlled by the evil computers. The infected dude must have infected others, by cutting himself and sprinkling his blood on them. Zion has not been wiped out(I mean otherwise how would Cornel West be in the next movie?) that is just further manipulation meant to demoralize them so the Architect and co. can make the best of a bad situation.
So I think that D-Day was accomplished by Neo. He saved the lives of those in Zion and, without as much energy being generated within the program formerly known as the Matrix, now the programs will turn on each other. Chances are the Smiths will wipe out the other programs so to end the evil programs, Neo will only need to defeat the main Smith dude.
So while Neo, Trinity and Morpheus may not understand their current situation, things are a lot better than they seem.
That is my read of the movie based on seeing it twice(It just came out yesterday here in MX.) after having read the remarks of many others.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.
Edited by - DLW on 05/23/2003 7:46:24 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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¡Que Payaso!
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Date Joined Jul 2001
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| Posted 5/23/2003 4:29 PM (GMT -6) | | Elektra asked, "What do you all make of the choice Persephone gave Neo, and his response?"
Well, he didn't really kiss her since it took place inside the Matrix. His body was in a La-Z-Boy back on the Nebuchadnezzar, hooked up by the USB port on the back of his mug. So the kiss only took place in his mind. Was this an example of lust?
Tigress wrote, "When Neo was in the real world and he was able to stop those squidlike machines, it seemed as though he was sort of both human and machine."
Did he stop the sentinels? Or was it the other Hovership that came flying over immemdiately after? I thought the other ship had hit the EMO button that zaps the sentinels. Maybe Neo is NOT both human and machine. Then again, Neo did say he could "feel" the sentinels.
But then we have Agent Smith who seems to have somehow exported part of himself out of the Matrix through that one guy who is in the hospital with Neo at the end. Remember? He duplicated himself by smacking that guy with the bitumen trick and then answered the phone and exited the Matrix. Later, that same guy in the real world cuts his hand and appears to have murderous plans for Neo, and he's the only guy to "survive" the sentinels' attack on his Hovership. So did Agent Smith exit the Matrix (at least in part)? Maybe there are personalities who are both human and machine.
Payaso 
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." - Bilbo Baggins | | Back to Top | | |
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Empiress
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363
| Posted 5/24/2003 8:19 AM (GMT -6) | | An article well worth reading for its analysis of the movie. You have to subscribe to the site or watch an ad to read the whole article, but it's worth it:
http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/2003/05/15/matrix_reloaded/index_np.html
~E
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BJS
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Total Posts : 587
| Posted 5/24/2003 1:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Great article, Empiress. Thanks!
Posted this on the free will thread last night. Thought I should put it here, too:
Okay. Just saw The Matrix. Holy Schnikees. That was good. I'm surprised that Doc thought it was weaker on the philosophy/theology front. I actually thought it was even fuller of those themes. What a brilliant concept it was that the Architect used humanity's inherent rebel streak against them by incorporating this "legend of the One" into the program, so that they would direct their free will in a direction that the Architect had planned for. The Architect's entire goal was to lead mankind through his orchestrated messianic "legend" into a final catch-22. Because if your the Architect, and you know free will is out there, you want to control it with catch-22s, right? So I think the final choice between the two doors is just that --- a catch-22 (or so the Architect thinks! Just wait until November, you white-bearded foo!). I don't think he thinks it matters which door Neo chooses. SWEET concept. SWEET. SWEET. SWEET.
Brett
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DLW
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Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/24/2003 3:07 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Elektra asked, "What do you all make of the choice Persephone gave Neo, and his response?"
Well, he didn't really kiss her since it took place inside the Matrix. His body was in a La-Z-Boy back on the Nebuchadnezzar, hooked up by the USB port on the back of his mug. So the kiss only took place in his mind. Was this an example of lust?
Persephone didn't give Neo much of a choice. He had to get to the key-maker. The kiss was her price, but I think it was illustrative of how the human-program dichotomy isn't that meaningful. It wouldn't surprise me if it comes out in the next movie that the Merovingian was one of the earlier "the Ones" and so Persephone was an earlier "trinity". But the Merovingian chose the other door accepted the predestination story of the Architect and began debasing himself on a regular basis. He fell from glory, his reason for being.
quote:
Tigress wrote, "When Neo was in the real world and he was able to stop those squidlike machines, it seemed as though he was sort of both human and machine."
Did he stop the sentinels? Or was it the other Hovership that came flying over immemdiately after? I thought the other ship had hit the EMO button that zaps the sentinels. Maybe Neo is NOT both human and machine. Then again, Neo did say he could "feel" the sentinels.
If the other ship stopped the sentinels then how did Neo feel their presence in advance and what they were going to do? How did Neo sense when the Agent Smith took control of the Zionite earlier in the movie? He was outside the matrix at the time and felt it, like the force, though he was unable to tell what had happened exactly.
So I agree with the assessment that "Reality" is probably part of the Matrix.
Any comments/thoughts on my interpretation of the film?
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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¡Que Payaso!
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 108
| Posted 5/24/2003 6:31 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
It wouldn't surprise me if it comes out in the next movie that the Merovingian was one of the earlier "the Ones" and so Persephone was an earlier "trinity". But the Merovingian chose the other door accepted the predestination story of the Architect and began debasing himself on a regular basis.
If this is the case, then does that mean that the Merovingian is a person that has likewise escaped the Matrix and is in the real world hacking in from somewhere? Does he live in Zion?
I mean since all of "the Ones" presumably escaped the Matrix and set out to destroy it, then the Merovingian would have had an experience similar to Neo's.
Payaso
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." - Bilbo Baggins | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/25/2003 5:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If this is the case, then does that mean that the Merovingian is a person that has likewise escaped the Matrix and is in the real world hacking in from somewhere? Does he live in Zion?
This need not be the case. When he returned to the source, Zion was destroyed and he chose its new predecessors. I am sure the Architect could find him some pretty nice accomodations from which he could do as he pleased.
quote:
I mean since all of "the Ones" presumably escaped the Matrix and set out to destroy it, then the Merovingian would have had an experience similar to Neo's.
Yes, he met the Colonel and was given the choice, but accepted the predestination b.s. and has since then accepted the Matrix as it is... .
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/25/2003 10:31 AM (GMT -6) | | A quick additional thought on my interpretation of MR.
I made a big deal out of my theory that the Architect was using the notion of predetermination as a means of controlling and deluding Neo.
I feel that it is important to consider the contrast between Morpheus and the Architect. Both make strong references to predetermination. I am sure that the Architect knows his b.s. to not be true, Morpheus may actually believe what he said, but could you imagine Neo saying, "but yeah then why do bad things happen to good people? Was it predestined that we would treat the machines like chattel so they would rebel against us? And how about that great idea we had to use Nukes to knockout our ability to get access to the Sun? I mean, duh, we may have denied the machines power, but we also got screwed? Were these all predetermined and why; so people in some alternative dimension could enjoy some good movies? Fuck you Wachowski's, how many have had to die so you could tell your stories? Find someone else to be the one."
No, I think Morpheus was not implying that all is predetermined exhaustively. His remarks are best understood functionally, just as the Architects were. Morpheus was giving a pep-talk for the need for the humans to work together, put their lives at stake so Neo could obey the Oracle. A belief that one serves a purpose set out by something higher than oneself and that the end is secure is an effective way of mobilizing people to take actions that they otherwise would never do. This is probably why Reformed Christians were so successful at mobilizing themselves to make political changes in the past.
So an important point of MR is that the concept of predestination itself can be used for Good or for Evil. In either case, it does serve to manipulate others, though. This, of course, serves to confirm the reality of freedom and choice.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.
Edited by - DLW on 05/25/2003 3:32:58 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/25/2003 11:52 AM (GMT -6) | | I also think there are additional ways the ending could be spun, keeping with my basic story. Perhaps, the others were telling the truth about most of the ships being destroyed and there being only one survivor left at Zion.
That does not imply that everyone in Zion was killed. Perhaps, they were taken hostage to be replanted into the Matrix since all the humans connected to the matrix had died. This is consistent with Neo's choice having saved Zion.
Then, maybe Neo, in his coma, is evolving to his next level of consciousness and the same is taking place for the Smith-possessed dude, who was given an "upgrade" by the sentinels for having helped keep the battle short and sweet.
So if I'm right about almost everything as will be known this Fall, can I change my codename to Neo-DLW???? Can we reprogram the Matrix, I mean reorganize the forums of CVM??? Pretty-please?
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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azusastreet
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 10
| Posted 5/25/2003 5:38 PM (GMT -6) | | I saw the film, and did not consider the dancing going on in the sancturary of Zion to be an orgy. Yes, it was sensual, and intercut with the lovemaking of Neo and Trinity, but the dancers all have their clothes on and are not "doing it" on screen. It's an exageration to say it was an "orgy" IMHO.
quote:
Found at the following link from Time Magazine: http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101030512/ammatrixqa.html
"The Zionists engage in a muddy but sedate orgy, intercut with a love scene between Trinity and Neo, the redeemer. Christian subtext, anyone?"
SBG- I respect your comments and deliberate efforts to keep yourself pure. It is commendable and admirable.
Edited by - Seesaw on 05/10/2003 01:06:10 AM
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honorman
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Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 5/25/2003 7:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Why was the first version of the Matrix imperfect? The Architet says at one point it was perfect, but I didn't catch why it needed to be replaced.
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shell
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 5/25/2003 7:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Azusastreet: I saw the film, and did not consider the dancing going on in the sancturary of Zion to be an orgy. Yes, it was sensual, and intercut with the lovemaking of Neo and Trinity, but the dancers all have their clothes on and are not "doing it" on screen. It's an exageration to say it was an "orgy" IMHO.
Shell: Really? Honorman said something along those lines too. I felt totally different about that scene. In some ways it was beautiful...especially the beginning with all of the different cultures and the energy. By the time it was done though I felt it clearly represented an orgy. I don't feel that you have to have the whole thing go'in on to have a pretty powerful impact. The energy totally built and climaxed as it coincided with the sex scene. I mean really, everyone was soaking wet by the end and it clearly wasn't sweat. Actually Trinity and Neos sex scene bothered me less, even though it was more graphic, than the group dance/orgy(to me).
I had read about the "orgy" scene prior to seeing the movie, but I didn't mention it to any of my friends that saw it with us. When we came out of the theater the first thing one of my friends said was "that dance scene sure seemed like an orgy to me...made me really uncomfortable". She hadn't read any other reviews either.
Shell
Edited by - shell on 05/26/2003 12:23:01 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
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Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 5/25/2003 7:23 PM (GMT -6) | | It was "perfect" but all the people started dying. I guess determinism = fatalism = no purpose = no life = death.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 5/25/2003 11:54 PM (GMT -6) | | Shell: I had read about the "orgy" scene prior to seeing the movie, but I didn't mention it to any of my friends that saw it with us.
Churchlady: Well now. You read about the lurid debauchery and THEN decided to see the movie. Speciall. Couldn't resist Kenau Reeves cute little buttox I suppose. hmmm. All those hard bodied twisted ripped underworld non-machine bodies jirating to jungle music in mass foreplay just a little bit too much to resist for you, wasn't it?
Wonder whose behind this little grabber.
Could it be, SATAN?
Doc: Now calm down churchlady. Shell was no doubt drawn by a pure theological interest and blushed I'm sure at the exposure of Reeve's cute tight buttox.
That stupid scene has given me grief since I used the whole movie as a base for a sermon last week - even AFTER I gave a disclaimer about the movie on the basis of the scene. Special.
Edited by - shell on 05/26/2003 12:23:01 AM
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 5/26/2003 12:05 AM (GMT -6) | | What if Merovingian was the reincarnated of Cipher from Matrix #1? (What, carnas is latin for body, so it wouldn't be reINCARNATED... it would be reMATRICIZED).
And DLW... I love your semi-plausible interpretation(s) and guesses at where its going... very interesting stuff. But I really think your wrong on the functional interpretation of predestination. Morpheus wasn't giving some pep talk dude. His whole cult is based on this Oracle-> Fate deal.
So much of how one understands Reloaded hangs upon whether or not, or to what extent, one believes the Architect was telling the truth at the end.
--- If he was, then the Oracle was simply a program that THOUGHT she was breaking free because she was programmed to think this -- as were the agents, the Keymaster, Persoph..whatever her name is, and everybody else in the Matrix game. Only the humans have true free will within the Matrix, and even they are largely jerked around (like Morpheus).
-- If he wasn't, then machines are evolving free will, the gap between humans and machines is closing, the Archtect is loosing control, and things aren't predestined, even within the Matrix.
We'll have to see... but my bet remains on option #1. I don't think the Architect acknowledges free will, because he's a machine. He thinks its a mere glitch in the system.
Doc
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
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| Posted 5/26/2003 2:15 AM (GMT -6) | | What about the appearance that almost everyone was non-white, and the Architect was lilly-white?
peace and love, don
---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse | | Back to Top | | |
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shell
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Total Posts : 280
| Posted 5/26/2003 4:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Doc: Now calm down churchlady. Shell was no doubt drawn by a pure theological interest and blushed I'm sure at the exposure of Reeve's cute tight buttox.
Shell: Of course that was the case! Shame on you Church Lady for thinking otherwise They showed his butt???!!! I was looking away of course!!
I should have known better than to touch that scene with a ten foot pole. All I get is grief around here.
Shell
Edited by - shell on 05/26/2003 09:22:30 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
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Total Posts : 550
| Posted 5/26/2003 4:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Actually Trinity and Neos sex scene bothered me less, even though it was more graphic, than the group dance/orgy(to me).
I totally agree with you, Shell. Isn't it amazing when a sex scene in a movie is preferable over a dancing "orgy" scene. The hardest part of this "NO REASON TO PUT IT IN THERE" scene is that MANY young people want to see the movie for the action but by allowing them to see the movie they're being infiltrated with the suggestion of "the way to have fun is to not only do it but do it as a group". In my opinion it's TOO BAD IT WAS INCLUDED. 
Too bad Doc was given grief for seeing the movie especially when he made the disclaimer in his sermon that he CAN'T recommend it due to this scene. Now days you never know why a movie is rated "R" - I thought it was because of the violence.
trosie
Edited by - trosie on 05/26/2003 09:38:35 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 5/26/2003 4:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Greg,
That was a good impression of Churchlady, especially in this type of forum!
Brandon
Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.--Isa 49:15-16
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/26/2003 8:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
What if Merovingian was the reincarnated of Cipher from Matrix #1? (What, carnas is latin for body, so it wouldn't be reINCARNATED... it would be reMATRICIZED).
No the Merovingian dude has been around for way too long. Bear in mind his statement that the only difference between him and Neo is that he knows the why. This makes perfect sense if as the first one, he had accepted the Architect's explanation of the why.
quote:
And DLW... I love your semi-plausible interpretation(s) and guesses at where its going... very interesting stuff.
We see but through a glass darkly. But the entire movie is filled with references to what I was saying. The duality of humans and machines is being broken down. It also explains why the W2 brothers got Cornel involved with the movie.
quote:
But I really think your wrong on the functional interpretation of predestination. Morpheus wasn't giving some pep talk dude. His whole cult is based on this Oracle-> Fate deal.
Well, I think that, with the different ways predestination comes up within the movie, the Wachowski Brothers had in mind the functional interpretation of predestination. Now let's say that Morpheus really did believe in the Oracle-Fate deal, the practical consequences of this belief were his willingness to risk his life/suffer(As he did in TM when he gave himself to save Neo) and ability to spur others to do the same as well as to celebrate in the face of their seemingly impending doom.
Others also appeal to fate. The young man that Neo had saved described him being on the Nebuchadnezzar as Fate. Functionally, at the sub-conscious level, he is manipulating Neo, Trinity and the others into accepting him as one of them. The Smith when the Smiths were piled up on top of Neo, told Neo it is inevitable, manipulating him into accepting assimilation. Persephone, after the kiss and telling Trinity how much she envies here, says that such things were not meant to last. She has been manipulated into accepting the Merovingian/Ex-The One's deconversion as inevitable/predetermined with all that that entails.
So I think the W2 brothers main points are, it is not a manicheistic struggle between humans and machines(the two are not that different from each other) and that, while Choice is essential(and what enables Neo to succeed where the others fail is not his superior fighting skills or ability to manipulate the Matrix, but his decision to love Trinity more than anything else), predestination is a critical way to manipulate others.
quote:
So much of how one understands Reloaded hangs upon whether or not, or to what extent, one believes the Architect was telling the truth at the end.
--- If he was, then the Oracle was simply a program that THOUGHT she was breaking free because she was programmed to think this -- as were the agents, the Keymaster, Persoph..whatever her name is, and everybody else in the Matrix game. Only the humans have true free will within the Matrix, and even they are largely jerked around (like Morpheus).
-- If he wasn't, then machines are evolving free will, the gap between humans and machines is closing, the Archtect is loosing control, and things aren't predestined, even within the Matrix.
You can't program someone to fall in love as deeply as Neo did for Trinity. It ain't true now, it can't be true in the future of the Matrix. This was Neo's fundamental choice that he had already made that the Oracle spoke of in their meeting. But, it enabled him to be manipulated by the Oracle/others into choosing the right door so as to try to save Trinity.
If Machines don't have free-will then why do they evolve(as in the Merovingian becoming the depraved program that apparently he wasn't always...) and if they aren't converging how do you explain the last scene with Neo and the Smith dude both in comas. As Neo becomes more and more like a program, Smith seems to be becoming more human. The distinction is blurring. Final Scenes can be taken as definitive about what the movie is about.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.
Edited by - DLW on 05/26/2003 2:08:21 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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