Open Theism Discussion Board

Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > THE MATRIX

Forum Quick Jump

178 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

Eli
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 44

Posted 5/26/2003 8:49 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
If Machines don't have free-will then why do they evolve and if they aren't converging how do you explain the last scene with Neo and the Smith dude both in comas and both probably evolving to become more and more like programs. The distinction is blurring.

It could be too that the "Real world" Smith didn't enter a coma until the very moment Neo did. Smith said at one point that they were linked in some way. Now I agree that they're probably evolving, but I'm looking at it from a slightly different angle. The last thing Neo does before entering the coma was either the response of reflex or pure desperation. Either way, even his brain probably wasn't ready for what happened, or at least the strain it put on him. So now, he's gone into the coma, to "evolve" inasmuch as his brain is kinda coming up to speed with this new information (as I'm sure the rest of us had to do, following that scene). Now, since for all intensive purposes Neo is out of commission, Smith has gone down with him. Maybe Smith's existance is now more or less dependant upon Neo's. I guess that would make Smith's obsession with destroying Neo somewhat masochistic, ehehe but there too, I don't think Smith's goal is to kill him, he wants to infect him.

And yes, that's reading way too much into everything, but so many movies these days just outright suck that it's nice to have one we can play with a bit.

"...it is fools, they say, who learn by experience. But since they do at least learn, let a fool bring his experience into the common stock that wiser men may profit by it." -C.S. Lewis

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/26/2003 9:01 AM (GMT -6)

I believe Smith, being more human now, is driven by his purpose...to stop the one as well as the desire for more power, as shown by his assimilation of the other agent.

I like the idea that it was Neo going into a coma that put the Smith-dude in a coma. Although, it could be that when the Sentinels took Zion, they gave him an upgrade that put him in a coma and left him behind to destroy the humans that picked him up...

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/26/2003 9:04 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

Why was the first version of the Matrix imperfect? The Architet says at one point it was perfect, but I didn't catch why it needed to be replaced.

If you'll recall from TM, apparently, it was so perfect that humans just intuitively refused to accept it as real.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

Iconoclast
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227

Posted 5/26/2003 2:06 PM (GMT -6)

DLW

Although, it could be that when the Sentinels took Zion, ...

Iconoclast

It wasn't clear to me that the Sentinels took Zion. What I understood is that the Sentinels wiped out the ships who set up a defensive point.

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/26/2003 2:08 PM (GMT -6)

Yes, but after taking out the ships, they would naturally move on to Zion. The people on the remaining ship made a sweep through Zion and found no-one except the Smith-dude living, as I understand it.

I would prefer to interact regarding my interpretation on the other link.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

Edited by - DLW on 05/26/2003 7:30:50 PM

Iconoclast
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227

Posted 5/26/2003 5:03 PM (GMT -6)

DLW

The people on the remaining ship made a sweep through Zion and found no-one except the Smith-dude living, as I understand it.

Iconoclast

The Smith-dude was on one of the ships that went to set up a defensive position (or something like that). Remember, he was in the council meeting and tried to influence his captain to go "help" the Nebachanezzar. My guess is that the next movie will be about the Sentinels approaching Zion and the big battle that ensues.

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/27/2003 5:38 AM (GMT -6)

I agree the Smith-dude was probably on a ship, where he was able to make the early warning shot.

But then of what significance was Neo's choice?

I think the W2 Brothers are being ironic. Neo, Morpheus and the rest are down because they think they've failed, but in reality they have succeeded.

I don't see what sort of battle could be left if almost all of the ships were destroyed. Nothing else will stop the Sentinels besides the fact they need the humans as batteries.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 5/27/2003 11:10 PM (GMT -6)

Trosie: Isn't it amazing when a sex scene in a movie is preferable over a dancing "orgy" scene. The hardest part of this "NO REASON TO PUT IT IN THERE" scene is that MANY young people want to see the movie for the action but by allowing them to see the movie they're being infiltrated with the suggestion of "the way to have fun is to not only do it but do it as a group".

Doc: Could it be we’re (including me from the pulpit) being a bit too prudish in our estimation of the sex between Neo and Trinity? Maye it was just Hollywood gratuitous stuff. Yes, they should have been married. But could it be meant as an analogy of the intense perichoretic (interpenetrating) love of the Trinity? I suspect that’s what the producer had in mind. Something similar was meant by the party scene. Humanity celebrating in all its non-metallic passion.

BBB: That was a good impression of Churchlady, especially in this type of forum!

Churchlady: Well now, looks TO ME like we’ve got a little assumption floating around in that little pound of noddles between your ears. Wonder what ELSE is floating there. Hmmm. Who says I’m not Doc’s true authentic alter ego? Maybe he needs a righteous babe like me in his head to keep his bag of noddles packed in a testosterone packed twisted steel pure male hard bod on the path of RIGHTEOUSNESS?

DLW: We see but through a glass darkly. But the entire movie is filled with references to what I was saying. The duality of humans and machines is being broken down. It also explains why the W2 brothers got Cornel involved with the movie.

Doc: I think you’re on the right track here. Perhaps Neo is going to save the world from the machine-human dichotomy and end up being the head of a new humanity, the incarnation of humanity in machine. It symbolized perhaps in the fact that in the first Matrix he acquired his nearly unlimited powers when he ENTERED the agent and blew him up. Now his identity IN the matrix is carrying over to his identity OUTSIDE the matrix. He IS the ONE.

DLW: let's say that Morpheus really did believe in the Oracle-Fate deal, the practical consequences of this belief were his willingness to risk his life/suffer(As he did in TM when he gave himself to save Neo) and ability to spur others to do the same as well as to celebrate in the face of their seemingly impending doom.

Doc: Yes, but (unless the Architect was bluffing) ALL of this played into his hands and was part of his scheming. The "function" of predestination is EVIL. FREEDOM, I believe, is the ultimate good in this movie, for it is the essence of humanity.

DLW: while Choice is essential(and what enables Neo to succeed where the others fail is not his superior fighting skills or ability to manipulate the Matrix, but his decision to love Trinity more than anything else), predestination is a critical way to manipulate others.

Doc: Yes, and its all in accordance with the master of fate within the matrix, the Architect. So its not "while Choice is essential… predestination is…" but "Precisely because Choice is essential… predestination can only be…"

DLW: You can't program someone to fall in love as deeply as Neo did for Trinity.

Doc: I think that the Architect, being machine, believes EVERYTHING can be programmed. Yet, he’s learning about humanity through his "One" loops of the matrix and is surprised to see Neo’s depth of love (as in the last scene when he remarks, "your’s is different, more particular").

Doc

"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/28/2003 4:51 AM (GMT -6)

Doc,
forgive me but I am going to respond on the other link. This link's gotten too long and I would like to discuss my interpretation there.

As for the sex scene between Neo and Trinity, I am going to tell my little sister that they are married and that if she is going to watch the movie, she has to stop and just look me in the eyes when I tell her too.

Then, after the movie, we will spend a lot of time talking about the movie. I'll probably teach her my interpretation. At least those are my tentative plans(I have to ask my mother's permission still

) for when I come home for a good portion of July this summer.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/28/2003 4:52 AM (GMT -6)

honorman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137

Posted 5/28/2003 7:42 PM (GMT -6)

I took my 8 & 10 year old to the movie because, frankly I didn't think the movie should have been rated R and my children have been raised well enough that I am confident that one scene (which I felt was much ado about nothing) is not going to cause they to seek out orgies. My daughter and her friend simply replied "yuck" through most of it and my son (who loves action and freaky stuff) kept asking "when this going to be over?) He was bored stiff by it. However, since none of them had seen the first one I had to explain several times over what those "holey things in his back were".

honorman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137

Posted 5/28/2003 7:44 PM (GMT -6)

I think Smith is the most interesting of the characters because I believe Neo made him more "human" at the end of the first movie and, as such, he no longer has his full sense of purpose because he now has to choose to do his job, which means he has lost THAT sense of purpose and I think that has made him want to get back at Neo by destroying him. Smith is in despair.

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 5/29/2003 3:48 AM (GMT -6)

This is the script in the Matrix: Reloaded where the Architecht speaks to Neo. It went by so fast, and so much hangs on it, that its worth re-reading carefully. Its a very cool dialogue. Here it is.
-----

The Architect - Hello, Neo.

Neo - Who are you?

The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also irrelevant.

Neo - Why am I here?

The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.

Neo - You haven't answered my question.

The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Others? What others? How many? Answer me!"*

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Five versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bullshit."*

Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows.

The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "You can't control me! F*ck you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me do anything!*

Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.

*The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architect's room*

The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo - The Oracle.

The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

Neo - This is about Zion.

The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

Neo - Bullshit.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Bullshit!"*

The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room.*

The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo - You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.

The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.

*The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors*

The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.

*Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neo's dream appear on the monitors*

Neo - Trinity.

The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.

Neo - No!

The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.

*Neo walks to the door on his left*

The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.

Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.

The Architect - We won't.

"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10.

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 5/29/2003 3:59 AM (GMT -6)

GregBoyd
posted the Matrix:ReLoaded script:

quote:

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

So if they start over with Neo, would the seventh version of the Matrix be the perfect version? Seven being the number of perfection in scripture.

Even though the skies are blue, don't they let the sunshine through?

Edited by - Laika on 05/29/2003 2:47:07 PM

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 5/29/2003 9:10 AM (GMT -6)

Laika: So if they start over with Neo, would the seventh version of the Matrix be the perfect version?

Doc: As I understand it, this has been the goal of the Architect with each version, and each of the "One's." He's simply trying to rid the matrix of this pestering "anomily" that disrupts his otherwise mathematically perfect matrix from running right.. In my interpretation -- in contrast to DLW's -- the apparent growing autonomy of the agents and the oracle are all part of the sinister pre-programming Architect who used these programs as a means of getting Neo back to himself. He was running a "virus scan" as it were. He was telling Neo the truth, in other words. In DLW's interpretation, the machines are REALLY taking on human characteristics and autonomy -- they're evolving -- and the Architect was bluffing as to his control over the whole process.

It may be that we're BOTH in for a surprise in the third movie. Who knows?

Greg

"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10.

shell
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280

Posted 5/29/2003 9:32 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

Honorman: and my children have been raised well enough that I am confident that one scene (which I felt was much ado about nothing) is not going to cause they to seek out orgies.

Shell: I'm sure that is the case. I don't think kids would even have a clue what that group scene was suggesting.

On the other hand, I guess this is where each parent draws the line for their own kids, I wouldn't let my almost 8 year old see the Matrix or many others. And I've never been referred to as a prude before, except maybe by Greg in his post a while back...

. In my opinion why not keep kids as innocent as possible for as long as possible? I wouldn't want my daughters to see Neo and Trinity naked together...having sex...even if they thought it was yucky or boring. In my opinion it's too much, too soon.

Shell

Edited by - shell on 05/29/2003 3:02:24 PM

honorman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137

Posted 5/29/2003 11:22 AM (GMT -6)

Shell: I do agree with you, it is a line each parent must draw on their own. But I do not consider my children "less innocent" after or "more innocent" before. My kids saw an action packed fun movie. My kids do not have blinders on. They have seen mommy and daddy kiss before and, given that their mother is a medical professional, already know where babies come from. They believe sex is wonderful. I believe, as far as Neo and Trinity go, its how you look at it. I tend to believe they are married in love.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/29/2003 11:36 AM (GMT -6)

I think it all revolves around who is telling the truth, the Oracle or the Architect and we cannot know for sure either way. We are in the same position as Neo, not knowing who to trust...

As for me and my house, we will trust the Oracle and put our Simpsons and Philosophy book on the line over whether Morpheus dies in the third movie.

I also would be willing to bet that Mervy shows up again and it is revealed that he was the first "the One"....
dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

shell
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280

Posted 5/29/2003 11:49 AM (GMT -6)

I just personally think watching mommy and daddy kiss is different than exposing children to nudity and sex in a movie. To me, when it comes to young children, whether or not the movie characters are married does not matter...I wouldn't let my kids see it if it was clear that Trinity and Neo were married. I think kids can have a healthy view of sex (mine happen to not have a clue about it right now as they are 7 1/2, 6 and 5 years old) and not be considered to have "blinders" on because they are not exposed to sex in the media at a young age. Like I think I tried to say before, as an adult I really didn't have a problem with Trinity and Neo's sex scene, so how I "look at it" doesn't really have an affect on whether or not I think children should see it or not.

Shell

ps. I do allow my kids to see mommy and daddy kiss.

Isn't it kind of ironic that we are at opposite ends of this issue when you seem typically more conservative than me on all other issues? It just strikes me as funny.

Edited by - shell on 05/29/2003 4:55:18 PM

Eli
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 44

Posted 5/29/2003 5:36 PM (GMT -6)

Merovingian - A Frankish ruling dynasty (c. A.D. 450-751) founded by Merovech (fl. fifth century) and brought to prominence by Clovis I

It was the first of 3 dynasties leading to the establishment of France (hence dude's obsession with the French language and why he chose the name).

So, no real point to this message unless someone can find more significance in this than myself. I just thought it was interesting.

"...it is fools, they say, who learn by experience. But since they do at least learn, let a fool bring his experience into the common stock that wiser men may profit by it." -C.S. Lewis

Edited by - Eli on 05/29/2003 10:37:01 PM

Terry_Baxter
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 187

Posted 5/29/2003 7:41 PM (GMT -6)

My fav scene in the movie.

-Merovingian: believed/purported to be descendants of Christ. Not sure how that was supposed to have happened (related through Jesus' siblings I guess). So, it could be a reference to descent from the last savior.

-Several writers on line suggest he was one of the previous Ones.

-The Merovingians were sort of 'hangers on' who didn't know when their time had come up.

-The Merovingians were the predecessors of a great empire, Charlemagne's. Just so, he makes way for Neo.

-He's 'married' to Persephone, which suggests he has the keys to the 'underworld'.

-Reason he's my fav? The contrast between causality love (biochemical reactions gets the blonde turned on) and chosen love (Neo/Trinity). However, I can't think of any link between the Merovingians and the notion of causality.

I'll be interested to see if the W Brothers explain there's more to the name than that.

Terry

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 5/30/2003 1:19 AM (GMT -6)

My memory of the scene is fading... but at one one the Oracle popped a red pill. I think she offered one to Neo. No idea what it might mean, or even what she said she was eating.

peace and love, don

---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/30/2003 4:36 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

My memory of the scene is fading... but at one one the Oracle popped a red pill. I think she offered one to Neo. No idea what it might mean, or even what she said she was eating.

peace and love, don

---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse

I believe she was eating something like a hot tamale, but both were s'posed to be candy. Of course, they could've been more but there were no other clues that this was the case. Neo did start to expand in his consciousness, but only after he left the source.

Here is Huey from "The Boondocks" doing The Matrix Reloaded...

http://www.ucomics.com/cgi-bin/sendtoafriend/getpostcard.cgi?site_ref=ucomics&MsgID=3b40fe808efd3b5dd8ef5824bdefd0cd

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

Edited by - DLW on 05/30/2003 09:37:58 AM

Winghead
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132

Posted 5/31/2003 8:05 PM (GMT -6)

Greetings everyone! It has been a while since I have posted. I was it must he fate that I was drawn here at this moment.

I have just read through all 12 pages of this thread, and last night, I went to see MR. My initial reaction to the movie is that I need to see it again to assimilate all the dialog. In talking with Modes and Meph today at church it was suggested some of us should go to see it again together. Just a thought.

Here are some of my thoughts on MR. I will try to not repeat everything said, so far.

Yours in Christ,
Winghead

"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 6/1/2003 9:59 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

I think the Oracle is benevolent to the humans, and the Architect more of a "Satan" type. If so, we cannot trust what the Architect says to be completely true. It may be partially true, or he may even believe it to be true. I think the Oracle sent Neo to the Architect so he would learn more about what's going on.

Both, in my view, are manipulating Neo, but Arky is trying to preserve the status quo and Oracle may be trying to manipulate him so he will break the cycle and lead to a new era of relations between humans and programs/machines.

quote:

The Oracle seemed to know that in Neo's dreams that Trinity did not actually die, suggesting to Neo that maybe she does not in fact die. Was this FN? How did the Oracle know Neo's dreams when they happened outside of the Matrix?

From my watching of the movie, Arky knows Trinity will die, which would be true irregardless of what Neo had chosen, but Oracle seems to have more ambiguity in what she says. Saying he must chose whether she dies or not. So perhaps, because she knew he loved her so much and the conditioning of the dreams, she knew what door he would choose if he got to see Arky. So her statements hold the clue that he could bring Trinity back to life if he wanted to.

quote:

Speaking of learning more about what is going on, it strikes me that MR is telling us more about the real world. In TM, we learn about the virtual reality matrix. Now, this world is expanded. It has "Ghosts" and other types of free agents. It has "back doors". At the end, it even seems that Neo has some power in the "real" world, as well as the Matrix. I am reminded that OUR world is really not just physical. There are spiritual dimensions. We tend to divide and categorize (physical and spiritual), but in reality, that is a false dichotomy. To put it another way, the virtual reality world in TM for the common person is very material and naturalistic. The world of MR is much larger, material and spiritual, natural and supernatural. Also, the boundaries are being blurred. It requires Neo, et al, to do a paradigm shift in their thinking.

Agreed and it is the blurring between humans and machines (and inside and outside the Matrix) that seems especially central, since this makes the end-goal, what Neo is s'posed to do, far less clear.

quote:

Keep in mind, there are always skeptics that question whether the prophet's message is really true or divinely inspired. I think the MR is confronting us with the skeptic’s claims that we are being deceived, and also with Satan's that things are not really as God suggests they are (--notice how nice the fruit looks?). While things might not be working out as Morpheus expected (Do they ever work out just as a prophet expects?) that does not mean that he will be proven wrong in this faith in Neo. Remember, the cross. The disciples were faced with a situation where the enemy appeared to have defeated the Messiah.

If my interpretation is right then Neo's actions did trigger the chain of events that will truly change things. The Irony here is that, despite all of Neo's abilities within the Matrix, it is his love for Trinity that allows him to succeed where many others failed in the past...

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

178 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Forum Information

Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 3:09 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads

Need Support? | Forum Help Manual