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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 5/8/2003 11:53 AM (GMT -6) |   | I just read the other day that there is an orgy scene between some of the people in Zion. Apparently it's muddy and messy. Supposedly it isn't too explicit but either way it's still sinful even to just act it out and probably to watch it too - although I'm not sure. I would suggest that parents see the movie first before they allow their children to see it.
I still want to see this movie, but I wonder sometimes if it really is a sin to view a lot of the stuff we see actors acting out on screen. I mean it is a sin for people to be acting out sex scenes especially if they're married to other people in real life b/c regardless of the fact that they're acting, they're still doing those things with the other person, which shouldn't be done with anyone other than their spouse.
So, is it a sin in God's sight to watch stuff like that and support it with our money?
Matthew 5:28 - But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Here Jesus made perfectly clear that if you're thinking thoughts about a woman that sexually stimulate you, you're committing adultery. (The same of course applies to women's thoughts about men as well.) So, for any man or woman that gets sexually stimulated by sex scenes in movies, that's sin. Therefore, this Matrix orgy scene may exempt quite a number of potential Christian viewers.
Yet, I still wonder if it's a sin for those of us who can watch sex scenes and not get sexually stimulated, to just go ahead and watch it anyway. I mean, by doing that you're endorsing the sinful activity, right? Regardless of any so-called moral to the overall story that the sex scene supposedly contributes to, the end doesn't justify the means.
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
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DLW
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| Posted 5/8/2003 1:39 PM (GMT -6) | | I don't think that watching a movie implies that one endorses all the actions portrayed in the movie.
As for lust, one need not recreate the act of having sex with someone in one's mind to enjoy the sexuality in a film.
I know you have discussed this in other links, but porn, in my views, divorces the sex acts from the rest of life and its sinful consequences.
So no I will not let my nine-year old sister watch the Matrix sequel if it sends the message that the Christian guidelines for sexuality are just more of that control, which is part of the Matrix. And if I were to watch it with some of my older teenage cousins, I would talk with them about the movie, and the messages it was sending, afterwards.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
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Seesaw
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Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 70
| Posted 5/8/2003 7:41 PM (GMT -6) | | I can't find it but I believe there is a verse that states that we are to avoid even the very appearance of sin. Does anyone know which verse that is?
Paul urges us (Phil. 4:8-10) to think upon things that are true, noble, pure, lovely, admirable, excellent, and praiseworthy. Many t.v. shows and movies do not stimulate such thinking.
I don't understand DLW's statement: "porn, in my views, divorces the sex acts from the rest of life and its sinful consequences."
Could you expand and perhaps clarify what you mean about porn divorcing sex acts from life and sin and consequences?
Thanks.
Good comment by Tigress: "Regardless of any so-called moral to the overall story that the sex scene supposedly contributes to, the end doesn't justify the means."
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DLW
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| Posted 5/9/2003 5:42 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I can't find it but I believe there is a verse that states that we are to avoid even the very appearance of sin. Does anyone know which verse that is?
Paul urges us (Phil. 4:8-10) to think upon things that are true, noble, pure, lovely, admirable, excellent, and praiseworthy. Many t.v. shows and movies do not stimulate such thinking.
I don't understand DLW's statement: "porn, in my views, divorces the sex acts from the rest of life and its sinful consequences."
Could you expand and perhaps clarify what you mean about porn divorcing sex acts from life and sin and consequences?
My experience with the Matrix in the past, is that it has inspired many to think of noble, pure, and praiseworthy things. It can even be used as a stepping stone for sharing about the Gospel. Although, I think its popularity is, in part, due to its vagueness. What is the Matrix? The Matrix is control... . We all have things that exercise control over our lives that we'd like to be free of.
Apparently, "puritanical" sexual ethics are one of those controls that the makers of the Matrix are free of. I don't know. I will wait til I see the movie to judge.
As for what I said about porn, in my rather limited experience with porn and more extensive experience with foreign films, both obviously include sexuality. But porn films divorce it from the rest of life. There just happen to be a whole bunch of attractive looking females that don't care about love, commitment, they just want to have sex. It projects male fantasies onto females.
In foreign films, particularly french ones(Most Italian films, unless they are by Roberto Benigni, are basically porn) are very honest about the consequences of the choices people make. In the dream life of angels, a woman sleeps with a rich guy, thinking that he was going to fall in love with her and she would live happily ever after, then we he ditches her, she kills herself. These sorts of films, for me, show why we must be true to God's plan for sex being contained in Marriage, by illustrating the painful consequences of liberated sexual relationships.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.
Edited by - DLW on 05/09/2003 10:42:52 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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S.B.G.
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 143
| Posted 5/9/2003 8:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Yikes!!
Can you confirm this?
I don't want any part of an orgy scene. I make a very concerted effort in my life to avoid polluting my mind with this type of thing. Images can be imprinted on our minds that we don't want there, and Satan can use those to taint the purity of our sexuality, whether we are consciously aware of it or not. I won't go too far into the whole issue of porn because it so sickens me. But I will say that it corrupts marriages, self image, and contentment. It also creates a sexuality that needs to become more and more perverse to become stimulated.
Proverbs 5:18,19 talks about "rejoicing in the wife of your youth" and "Letting her breasts satisfy you at all times." That type of wholesome, committed sexuality must be protected and cherished. That means reflecting on your attraction to your mate, taking lustful thoughts captive to Christ, and not knowingly putting yourself in situations which cause temptation.
Tigress, can you supply the source of your information?
S.B.G.
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 5/9/2003 10:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Yikes!!
Can you confirm this?
Tigress, can you supply the source of your information?
S.B.G.
It was in this week's "Time Magazine" article about The Matrix: Reloaded.
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
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DLW
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Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/9/2003 10:44 AM (GMT -6) | | http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101030512/story.html#
The article can be accessed at the above link. Spoilers are warned in advance...
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/9/2003 10:45 AM (GMT -6) | | http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101030512/story.html#
The article can be accessed at the above link. Spoilers are warned in advance...
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
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| Posted 5/9/2003 10:54 AM (GMT -6) | | I just went back and reread the article and couldn't find the part about an orgy. Just Neo waking up with Trinity at his side and a sensuous kiss with Monica Bellucini..
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 5/9/2003 11:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I can't find it but I believe there is a verse that states that we are to avoid even the very appearance of sin. Does anyone know which verse that is?
The verse is 1 Thess 5:22. But let's take this in context.
quote:
19 Don't stifle the Spirit. 20 Don't despise prophecies, 21 but test all things. Hold on to what is good. 22 Stay away from every form of evil.
Couple of things.
1. If we take this take to mean to avoid every evil APPEARANCE, then we will literally have to be taken from this world. When I walk down the street, I see (and come into contact with) evil on some billboards. Some of a very subtle unchristian kind (materialism, sexism). We would have to avoid EVERYTHING. Some people have used this verse for some really whacked out ideas.
2. This text is speaking about charismatic utterances in the Christian community. Paul does not want the Thessalonians to "despise" prophecies, but rather to test them, and to hold on to what is good. Staying away from every form of evil has to do with prophecies which are tested and are found not to be of the Spirit. To interpret this any other way is to abuse the text and mean for it something God did not intend for it to mean.
3. The text says to avoid the evil itself and not just the appearance.
Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 5/9/2003 11:27 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I just went back and reread the article and couldn't find the part about an orgy. Just Neo waking up with Trinity at his side and a sensuous kiss with Monica Bellucini..
dlw
Hmmm...I know I read it somewhere...maybe it was off of an MSN website article reviewing the movie. I only read three things at work on my lunch break - "Time Magazine," "TV Guide" and the www.msn.com homepage articles. And I know it wasn't in this week's "TV Guide." Oh, well. We'll know for sure when the movie comes out.
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
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DLW
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Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/9/2003 12:03 PM (GMT -6) | | I don't think we get to extensive footage of Zion until the third film...
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Seesaw
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Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 70
| Posted 5/9/2003 7:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Focus on the Family's website has movie reviews- they don't come out until the same time the movie comes out but they will even count the number of curse words and tell you which ones are said and how many times. They are very consice and helpful reviews from a Christian viewpoint. www.family.org
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Seesaw
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Total Posts : 70
| Posted 5/9/2003 7:57 PM (GMT -6) | | BBB, how would you then explain verses about blamelessness?
Check out 2 Peter 3:14; Titus 1:6,7; Eph 1:4; Phil 1:10 and 2:15; 1 Cor 1:8; Psalm 15:2, 18:23, 18:25, 19:13, 26:1, 26: 11, 37:18, 37:37, 84: 11, 101: 2, 101:6, 119:1, 119:80; Dt. 18:13; and Gen. 17:1. All these verses exalt blamelessness and living a blameless life in which a person is not associated with sin.
We are also told to be holy and righteous.
I suppose this is the question: Is watching a movie or show that is violent, immoral, or ungodly in line with living a holy, blameless, and righteous life? Many Christians struggle with this question. We probably need to ask ourself if a movie or show encourages us towards greater holiness and righteousness, inspires us towards that which is good and wholesome, draws us closer to God, or if it doesn't.
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Seesaw
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Total Posts : 70
| Posted 5/9/2003 8:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Found at the following link from Time Magazine: http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101030512/ammatrixqa.html
"The Zionists engage in a muddy but sedate orgy, intercut with a love scene between Trinity and Neo, the redeemer. Christian subtext, anyone?"
SBG- I respect your comments and deliberate efforts to keep yourself pure. It is commendable and admirable.
Edited by - Seesaw on 05/10/2003 01:06:10 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 5/10/2003 7:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Seesaw, I have come to realize over the years that I will not be able to convince everyone of my point of view with regard to sex and sexuality in film and in the arts. They will have to come to the same level of freedom on their own. For the most part I don't like having these type of conversations because of the polemics involved and because I am usually met with the 'ol deer in the headlights look. Like I am in the world and I am OF the world. Did you look at my post on the pornography thread?
www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=2&ARCHIVEVIEW=&TOPIC_ID=1866
Let me say that for the most part I don't filter my viewing of movies and the arts in general through a particular narrow lens of holiness as you presribe. I think you start off asking the appropriate question, but then you conclude by saying that which inspires us to godly lives is what we should use as a filter for the arts. Again, too narrow for my liking. I guess the best that I can do is recommend some of the major influences in my life.
Francis Schaeffer
www.gospelcom.net/cgi-ivpress/book.pl/code=443
William Romanowski
www.aml-online.org/reviews/b/B200192.html
Mark Noll
www.aml-online.org/reviews/b/B200192.html
Leland Ryken (one of my favorites)
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0880701153/qid=1052582853/sr=1-9/ref=sr_1_9/002-2099371-9539210?v=glance&s=books
Gene Edward Veith Jr.
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0891075828/qid=1052582927/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/002-2099371-9539210?v=glance&s=books
Lastly, we have had this discussion on Matt 5:28 before. I think Greg and I hold to much the same position on this. Here goes.
It is clear that sexual righteousnous is a far deeper issue than merely avoiding sex outside of marriage. But how are we as Christians to have a "Christian understanding" of sexuality? More specifically, how are we to "think Christianly" about sexual fantasies? Are we to assume that ALL sexual fantasies are immoral, ungodly and unwholesome? How does Matt 5:28 square with the fact that we are "wired" this way i.e. Song of Solomon, and King David, creation of male and female? Is having one nanosecond of an erotic thought wrong? When does it become wrong? What do you say to JAMES DOBSON who says that masturbation (which every male has done and WILL do and many females have done) can be "healthy" (except for excess) in terms of getting one ready for a "soulmate" (a corny term if I've ever heard one), yet masturbation is connected with sexual fantasies. That is, masturbation does not occur in an imageless void or vacuum.
Many Christians have been met with either stony silence or have been counselled to repress their feelings when faced with such questions. Both are negative responses leaving many confused AND DISALLUSIONED as to how to deal with sexual fantasies. The church has been and still continues to be VERY far behind with good solid positive advice concerning sexuality. Quoting verses like Matt 5:28 is easy to do. Thinking through the whole subject (sexuality) takes a little bit more work.
At the outset let me make a distinction (which is usually clouded).
A. There is a distinction between LUST and SEXUAL FANTASY. That is, although all lust involves sexual fantasy not all sexual fantasy involves lust.
Question. How do we tell the difference?
Response: Lust can be defined as "runaway, uncontrolled sexual passion." That is, when sexual excitement concieves a plan to use a person, or when attraction turns into scheme, we have crossed beyond erotic excitement into spiritual adultery. (Smedes) That is to say, that lust is an untamed, inordinate sexual passion to POSSESS and this is a very different thing from the usual erotic awareness experienced in sexual fantasy.
What this means is...
B. As Christians, we should refuse to bear the heavy burden of self-condemnation for every erotic image that floats through our minds. Sexual fantasies can signify a longing for intimacy. At other times they can express attraction toward a beautiful and winsome person. Sexual fantasies can mean many things and we must refrain from automatically identifying them with lust.
C. There is a positive function to fantasy. Through it we can "hold reality at bay" while our imagination roams freely. By saying this, what I mean is that mature people will be able to utilize the imagination without ever losing touch with the real world. Unlike the rest of creation, we as sexual beings have the ability to reflect upon our sexuality. We write love letters, poems, remember a warm kiss over and over again, and anticipate loves tender moments yet to come. These are sexual and erotic events and experiences and should not be classified as lust. One could say that IN MARRIAGE, sexual fantasy is vitally important in awakening sexual expression. Could this be one reason many couples are bored with sex. Atrophy of the imagination?
D. Don't get me wrong. Though sexual fantasy has a positive side, it also has a destructive side like everything else, (the principle of proportionality). This can be so in that sexual fantasy can be a substitute for warm friendships, which carry with them the demands and disappointments of real life. It can also lead to the OBSESSION with the sexual. It can easily become a truncated preoccupation with the physical which is a prelude to illicit behavior.
In the end, we need to realize the authority we can have over our sexual fantasies. There will be times when we can think on those things that are honorable, just, pure lovely and gracious (sexual fantasy). Yet there are those times when we can confess along with Paul, "It is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me" (lust) while at the same time recognizing that a deeper experience of obedience is coming. Rom 7:17.
Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
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DLW
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| Posted 5/10/2003 7:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey, thanks Brandon for having the courage to share...
Appreciate it.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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S.B.G.
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 143
| Posted 5/10/2003 9:52 AM (GMT -6) | | "One could say that IN MARRIAGE, sexual fantasy is vitally important in awakening sexual expression. Could this be one reason many couples are bored with sex. Atrophy of the imagination?"
I agree with you, but with some distinctions.
1. The fantasies must only involve your spouse---the things you would like to experience, give to and recieve from your mate. My husband and I talk frequently about our intimate relationship. We revel in the experiences we have shared and lovingly anticipate coming together again. IF the IT department where I work ever read our emails to each other, I dare say, I'd turn flush!  But we recognize that fantasizing about each other during the day, and articulating those thoughts takes our sexual intimacy to deeper levels and creates a fortress around our unique couple interaction. There simply isn't room for imaginings of another's touch in our minds, because our minds are so full of one another.
2.The couple must be in agreement with what is pure and what is cultivating oneness in their relationship. If one partner wants to involve imaginings of other people, or experiment in ways that make the other feel dirty or lustful, this is HORRIBLY damaging to the relationship. But exploration and discovery is all part of the joy, and is a good thing.
It is too painful for me to go into, and frankly, I don't see the need to make myself that vulnerable, but I know how devious satan is, and how our minds can rationalize and desensitise to the point of violating what began as good intentions.
My choice to avoid TV and movies in general, has to do with my own personal experiences, my personality, and my personal walk with Jesus. I know myself, and I feel soiled and tainted if I've exposed myself to suggestive or unwholesome entertainment. I literally take no enjoyment from it, and don't feel the need to aquire such enjoyment. Now, my standards and what I consider evil and unwholesome may be different than other people, for that reason I would never try to impose my way of life on others. This is not to say I am incapable of looking beyond curse words or sexual inuendos to the overidng themes and plot of a movie, but it had better be DARN good for me to waste my time wading through the muck!!
I want for my daughters what I have with my husband.I want them to enjoy their sexuality in its fullness and with freedom. I feel saddened and dismayed just going to the mall where young girls are virtually displaying they're bodies, competeing with one another for the lust of they're peers. If my girls compete with so and so on TV, or so and so at the mall, they will have to struggle with the lies that they must be a certain way or look a certain way to be attractive. Even more concerning to me, is wondering if there will be a sexually pure man out there who doesn't have a thousand images of naked women floating around in his head for my girls to marry! Comparrisons kill, and the more sex scenes, photos, porn movies etc. one exposes himself to, the more expectations he creates in his mind for the "sexually arousing" woman.
On masturbation: Of course people must do this on occasion. Sexuality is a real physical need. However, I would say to the unmarried person, fantasize about your imagined mate, don't look at porn or mentally undress an aquaintance, or dream of somebody elses companion. If a couple is engaged, and wanting to wait until marriage, I see nothing wrong with masturbating with your betrothed in mind. But this needs not be in excess, I know men who have become so accustomed to self-stimulation that they can't respond to their wives, and/or cannot respond without a porn movie or exibitionism---there have to be boundaries.
My kids are calling me..I've got to go.
Just one woman's perspective.
Peace.
S.B.G.
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Seesaw
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Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 70
| Posted 5/10/2003 3:49 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
My choice to avoid TV and movies in general, has to do with my own personal experiences, my personality, and my personal walk with Jesus. I know myself, and I feel soiled and tainted if I've exposed myself to suggestive or unwholesome entertainment. I literally take no enjoyment from it, and don't feel the need to aquire such enjoyment. Now, my standards and what I consider evil and unwholesome may be different than other people, for that reason I would never try to impose my way of life on others. This is not to say I am incapable of looking beyond curse words or sexual inuendos to the overidng themes and plot of a movie, but it had better be DARN good for me to waste my time wading through the muck!!
Ditto.
Most t.v. shows and movies are produced by men and women who have worldly values and outlooks which is reflective in their works.
Here's an interesting thought- An ugodly person has little interest in Christian genre- whether books, music, or film. Most non Christians will be browsing the titles at a secular bookstore, not a Christian one. They will be listening to secular music with no interest whatsoever in Christian music. Some may excuse this by saying that the Christian genre is not as well produced as secular and to an extent this may be true in the area of film.
Non Christians have no interest in things of God. Yet, the majority of Christians have great interest in things of the world (speaking of things that reflect the world's views, morals, values). It seems to be quite a dichotomy.
Edited by - Seesaw on 05/10/2003 8:50:54 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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| Posted 5/10/2003 4:16 PM (GMT -6) | | The writing of many non-christian writers reflects questions that show their need for God. They still have a Christ-shaped hole in their hearts that needs to be filled.
I think the movie, the Matrix, reflects this.
Many of the songs I heard other people singing when I was growing up, like "Give Me Something to Believe In" also reflect this.
If you watch French films, they deal with the consequences of sin and the despair caused by the large-scale failure of Christianity in France.
Try watching the film, "Jesus of Montreal" or "The Decline of the American Empire" to see some good Quebec examples of how people who may have a rather shaky relationship with God still are probing questions that are of relevance and that feel the emptiness caused by secularism.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Empiress
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Date Joined Jan 2002
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| Posted 5/11/2003 4:11 PM (GMT -6) | | The people in Zion take part in an orgy scene in Matrix Reloaded?
I haven't heard of anything so scandalizing since reading the Old Testament! There the people of Zion take part in ritual orgies before a golden calf.
I wonder where these film writers get their ideas!??
;-D
But it does raise a question: is the sexual explicitness of the Bible something we ought to protect ourselves from as well as our children?
~E
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S.B.G.
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| Posted 5/11/2003 5:04 PM (GMT -6) | | Cute Empiress  ,
Obviously the Bible does not shy away from the reality of sin. And if we are too out of touch with the world, we lose some of our ability to relate to the very people we want to witness to.
However, the Bible refers to sexual sin somewhat descretely---it doesn't go into the visual appearance of the persons in the orgie, various positions, activities, sounds etc. that one would be exposed to in a movie.
Until I see Matrix reloaded, I won't know how offensive it is. I'm sure the scene has a greater purpose-- in the first Matrix, Neo met Trinity in an S&M night club, but the scene was done tastefully and the people in the background were hardly noticeable.
All I'm saying is, if it's not discrete, I don't want to see it!!
eeeewwwwww!!!
S.B.G.
To understand and to be understood is bliss.
Edited by - S.B.G. on 05/12/2003 12:29:35 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Empiress
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| Posted 5/11/2003 5:28 PM (GMT -6) | | SBG said: quote:
the Bible refers to sexual sin somewhat descretely
I would take issue with that statement about the Bible actually...while it doesn't have multi-media abilities, it is extremely graphic in many of its descriptions of things including violence, murder, blood/sacrifice, rape, and sex.
I know of little ancient literature that is as graphic sexually as the Song of Songs for instance...but perhaps people do not catch the full meaning of that text.
Despite this, my point is not that we shouldn't avoid certain graphic images and material, but simply that the Bible itself is not free from graphic material and imagery and certainly includes many things that people unhesitatingly term "immoral" when portrayed in art and film, but not when it appears in the Bible. I'm serious when I ask people who will not watch or read anything "sexual" whether certain portions of the Bible ought to be avoided too.
I assumed when I read Tigress's opening sentence on this thread that the discussion was going to point to the deeper theological concept behind such a scene (which sounds clearly like a Biblical image). Instead the whole thread overlooks that point entirely and merely delves into a moralistic discussion... as if the movie itself was immoral for even portraying such a thing. I found it odd given the Biblical connotations (although obviously I haven't seen the movie yet either).
Thanks,
~E
Edited by - Empiress on 05/11/2003 10:30:30 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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S.B.G.
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 143
| Posted 5/12/2003 3:37 AM (GMT -6) | | I know of little ancient literature that is as graphic sexually as the Song of Songs for instance...but perhaps people do not catch the full meaning of that text.
Song of Solomon is loving sexual intimacy between husband and wife...not sexual sin.
But anyway, the people on this thread will have to wait until we actually see the movie to have a more focused discussion. It's obvious that some topics are trigger points for some people, myself included. 
Peace,
S.B.G.
To understand and to be understood is bliss. | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 5/12/2003 5:02 AM (GMT -6) | | S.B.G.,
I understand the anxiety you have for your children. I have those same concerns. Many teenage boys, will have thousands of images going through their head. But as one gets older, many men do grow out of those obsessions. As I see it, there is a lot of things that change (priorities) as we get older. Again, I noted the negative side to sexual fantasy (obsessions). But the point that I’m driving at is this. In days gone by, if one (a married person) EVEN THOUGHT that someone else was ATTRACTIVE, that constituted adultery in the minds of many Christians. It was basically on the same level as viewing pornography. I’m trying to avoid THAT extreme as well. I mean your whole betrothal thingy would have been looked upon as VERY sinful in the past. To tell you the truth, some may find your talk of sending e-mails between yourself and your lover husband to be an obsession. Anyway…
Allow me to just throw something out there for ya to chew on. Let me ask you about pornography. Just what is it about pornography that is makes it sinful? Is it the images? Is it two strangers having sex without commitment? What if they are married and very committed to each other? Is it the obsession with the physical? Close up of male and female genitalia? Exploitation of women? Exploitation of men? Exploitation of children?
Hint: Pornography takes a VERY GOOD THING (God made it) and makes something VERY EVIL of it. Think context. Forgive me for being very post-modern on this point, but there are no such things as “brutal acts.” Events, happenings, etc, do not occur outside of a context. They do not occur in a moral vacuum. More than the images themselves, pornography is wrong for deeper reasons of which I will not go into at any length here or else we will really start to get off topic. I just invite you to dig deeper  (By the way, not all movies that have sex scenes in them are pornographic).
Lastly, let me just throw an example of what I have come to believe that Jesus meant by lust being adultery as well.
Taken from my buddy’s website, imagine three married men, James, Brian, and Roger go to New York and each of them has a business lunch with an attractive buyer. James thanks God for her charm and the pleasure of meeting her, but he has no intention of being unfaithful to his wife. Brian decides it would be nice to take the woman out for dinner that night, and see if she would come to his hotel room. He then discovers that her husband is on the way home and carries a gun, so discretion is the better part of valor. Roger manages to bed the lady. By law, and in most peoples' minds, only Roger has committed adultery. But Jesus says that Brian ALSO committed adultery the moment he decided to act on the temptation (scheming). The only difference was that he did not have the opportunity to complete the act. What the text teaches us is that from God's point of view a failed intention to commit adultery (lusting, coveting) is already an adulteration of the marriage.
By the way DLW, thanks for your kudos.
Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
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