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rossfadeinout
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428

Posted 4/16/2003 8:26 AM (GMT -6)

Couldn't exactly figure out which category to put this in, so I figured I'd do it here...

where to start? I have been out of college since this past June, and since then I have been working in my dad's insurance office. Lets just say that this is not what I feel like I should do with th rest of my life. Recently I have become very interested in Philosophy and its relationship to Theology. I have read whatever I can get my hands on concerning Philosophy from Christian philosophers- William Lane Craig, Alvin Plantinga, Norman Geisler, J. P. Moreland, Dallas Willard, etc. I have recently been reading through some of Thomas Aquinas' Summa. And of course i just got done with Dr. Boyd's Satan and the Problem of Evil. Anyway all this stuff is totally new to me and totally exciting! However with my newfound desire for knowledege, I ve kind of got more information in than I can quite process. I have had a very tough time understanding epistemology and arguing against skeptical arguments about the possibility of knowledge.

I say all of this to say that I believe that I would enjoy studying Philosophy and one day perhaps teach at a Christian college or work in some kind of para-church ministry teaching the role of the intellect in the Christian life. I know that there are several on this board who have studied Philosophy at the graduate level. I'm wondering if anyone has any good suggestions about graduate programs. Since I have never had any formal teaching other than what I have read, I would like to study in a Christian environment. I have already realized that despite a resurgance of theistic philosophers in the academic world, there is still much in modern philosophy that is anti-theist and even anti-knowledge...

Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated!

Ross

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. - C.S. Lewis

selah
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210

Posted 4/16/2003 8:48 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

I have had a very tough time understanding epistemology...

Me too. Isn't that what they do during natural child birth?

Sorry, just ignore me Ross.
I got bored writing my paper!
peace and love,
selah

Then He showed me the river whose waters give life, sparkling like crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb. Rev. 22:1

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 4/16/2003 10:10 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Me too. Isn't that what they do during natural child birth?

Oooo...oww...ouch...YO MAMA!

Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
www.darwinhobbs.com

Alan Rhoda
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680

Posted 4/16/2003 11:06 AM (GMT -6)

Ross,
I think your educational aspirations are great. Here's a few suggestions:

1) Talbot School of Theology (La Mirada, CA) has a M.A. program run by J.P. Moreland in Philosophy and Ethics. A former roommate of mine went through the program and said it was excellent and prepared him well when he went on for a Ph.D. in philosophy. I know it has gotten many great reviews from top notch Christian philosophers.

2) Notre Dame - the Mecca of Christian philosophy here in the U.S. Very hard to get into, but one of the best philosophy programs in the country.

3) Baylor University - I don't know what kind of graduate programs they have, but William Dembski teaches there, and Francis Beckwith just got hired there. Worth looking into.

4) Any of the various Catholic institutions of higher learning (e.g., St. Louis, Fordham, Loyola Marymount, Boston College, Georgetown). Generally have solid philosophy programs where the faculty are by and large sympathetic to students with Christian convictions.

Hope that helps. Take some time to research your options. Talk to lots of people. And be sure to get your applications in early, or you make miss out on some very helpful financial aid.

God bless,
Alan

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 4/16/2003 12:28 PM (GMT -6)

I would also add Texas A&M. They have a pretty good Philosophy program and just started a PhD program. (In fact, if I had not gotten my job teaching Economics in MX, I would be getting a masters in Philosophy there right now...).

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

Terry_Baxter
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 187

Posted 4/16/2003 12:53 PM (GMT -6)

I don't give life advice lightly. Since you asked, and since I have some experience, I'll offer my observations.

--I'll admit up front I have a natural antipathy to philosophy. You should know that those feelings are influencing my response, much as I try to be fair.

--I have several friends who were graduate students in philosophy from my grad school days (and some who joined my program after they left the philosophy department). Only the hardcore philosopher types stuck it out to a thesis completion. It's a hard life, grading undergrad papers, reading hundreds of pages each week, and working late hours to finish papers for conferences or classes.

--If you're going to get an MA and stop, there are few degress more worthless on a resume than an MA in philosophy. In fact, in my experience, many 'real world' employers actively 'discriminate' against humanities graduate degrees in general.

--Graduate school is expensive and difficult (not just the life is difficult, but the work itself is hard). From those who've asked, I've discouraged graduate school for those who had romantic ideas about gently discoursing about Great Thoughts. You'll have to learn a foreign language, if not two, for research, which is daunting in itself (and no, I don't use my French much more than my Ancient Greek selling software).

--After two to five years of hard work, you will certainly not be further ahead financially, and if you fund your school with loans, you may be thousands of dollars behind.

--Ask Alan, who is intimately familiar with it I suspect, but the job market for philosophy docs is probably only slightly better than the propsect for English PhD's. It stinks to work hard for five or more years, only to take a series of post-doc temporary appoinments and travel around the country without putting down roots. Worse, after those five years, your marketable skills may have decreased for 'real world' jobs.

--(My only comment specific to the discipline of philosophy rather than grad school in general) I think, outside of the Christian programs Alan mentions, the general field of philosophy is really locked in to the Incommensurability of Ideas. Hegelians have such fundamental presuppositions from, say, existentialists, that some departments have faculty who rarely talk to each other.

I'd suggest going to a local university library and looking at the Chronicle of Higher Education for the job listings. Look at the last two years and see where, what kind, and how many philosophy jobs are available.

--Finally, to piggyback on the Incommensurability thought, in my view, Craig is fairly bright light in the constellation of philosophers. He works hard to make his philosophy praxical, and he sincerely engages opposition with a mind toward improving or altering his position. It's a genuinely Christian ethic to be that humble and realistic about one's sincere beliefs.

Most any program will invite you to set in on one of their classes if you express an interest in applying. I'd highly encourage that you arrange that. Make a weekend road trip out of it if you can get a Friday off.

Terry Baxter
"Be God's"

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 4/17/2003 2:35 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

quote:

I have had a very tough time understanding epistemology...

Me too. Isn't that what they do during natural child birth?

LOL
My wife had one of those for our second child. I'm holding her, she's got her back to the nurse, I'm facing the nurse. The nurse approaches with *that* needle and
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I faint.

Edited by - Laika on 04/17/2003 07:36:30 AM

rossfadeinout
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428

Posted 4/17/2003 3:03 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks for the imput!

Alan, I have checked into both Talbot and Baylor. They both seem to be very promising. In addition to the professors that you mentioned at Baylor, C. Stephen Evans is on the faculty there!

Oh yeah, a question or two for you Alan. Your profile says that you're a Phd candidate. How close are you to completing your doctorate? What are your future plans- teaching, writing? Your clarity and wisdom on this board have been a part of the reason that I have wanted to study Philosophy.

Terry, I appreciate your honesty. I agree that outside of Christian programs there is incompatibility of different philosophical sysems. That is why I believe that I would want to pursue a teaching position at a Christian university or some sort of Christian ministry.

I'm at work so I have to get back to my filing. Anybody else have any inmput?

Ross

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. - C.S. Lewis

Edited by - rossfadeinout on 04/17/2003 08:03:41 AM

Alan Rhoda
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680

Posted 4/17/2003 1:05 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Oh yeah, a question or two for you Alan. Your profile says that you're a Phd candidate. How close are you to completing your doctorate? What are your future plans- teaching, writing? Your clarity and wisdom on this board have been a part of the reason that I have wanted to study Philosophy.

Wow. I'm glad to have been an inspiration to you. Appreciate the compliment.

As my profile says, I am a Ph.D. candidate. Have been for about 5 years now. I'm almost done writing the dissertation, but I've been taking my sweet time doing it--in large part because I've been trying to do too many other things at the same time. If all goes well I will be defending in the Fall of this year.

I hope to secure a full-time teaching position, but as Terry pointed out, the job market is tight. While I would prefer to teach philosophy at a secular institution (b/c it's a mission field in where Christian scholars are relatively scarce), I may also look into Christian institutions, or apologetics ministries. I have been teaching part time at UNLV, but that's unlikely to turn into a full-time position, much less a tenure-track position. I do have a steady non-philosophy job in the IT field that looks like it will provide some good career options should the philosophy thing not pan out. We'll see how it goes. I'm not worried about it, because I have seen God's faithfulness in providing.

Alan

PS. Terry said a lot of good, practical things that need to be considered. But I would say that if philosophy is what you really want to pursue, then pursue it. We always regret it later when we don't pursue our dreams. But be realistic at the same time and stay flexible.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 4/17/2003 1:59 PM (GMT -6)

Where you can get into is also partly a function of your GRE scores and undergraduate gpa. I had a friend who wanted to get a PhD in Philosophy but he was a terrible test-taker and so he now is in a Religious Studies program that is much less challenging than a Philosophy program would be.

Last year, when I didn't know if I would get a job with my PhD in Economics, I decided to apply to the PhD program at Notre DAme. I was turned down mostly because of my lack of familiarity with Philosophy(I had one course in the Classics in Western Political Philosophy as an undergrad and studied the History of Economic Thought in Grad-school, and I worked way too hard on a philosophy/theology paper during my last three years in grad school, for which I had to learn more about the history of Theology on my own). But ND told me that if I got a master's degree at Texas A&M or Talbot that I might be accepted. My theological views didn't fit at Talbot, but I was accepted with funding into the PhD program at Texas A&M, they waived the Master's requirement due to my already having a PhD. ) Texas A&M is my parachute in case things don't work out here in MX(and I can't find a job I would like in Economics).

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 4/17/2003 2:01 PM (GMT -6)

I should mention though that I have rather good GRE scores and an undergraduate GPA from a double major in Mathematics and Economics with a minor in History, so that bolsters my chances a bit.
dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 4/18/2003 3:22 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
The nurse approaches with *that* needle and .
.
I faint.

I think what Selah was refering to is done with a pair of scissors, be glad you fainted.

peace and love, don

---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 4/18/2003 6:32 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

quote:
The nurse approaches with *that* needle and .
.
I faint.

I think what Selah was refering to is done with a pair of scissors, be glad you fainted.

I was going from epistemology --> epideral, NOW I'm thinking I don't want to know what was really meant!

medical stuff makes me queasy

<plop!>

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.

rossfadeinout
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428

Posted 4/18/2003 8:55 AM (GMT -6)

Alan,
So what is your dissertation topic? The reason that I ask is that you said in your profile that you were specializing in epistemology, and this topic has been weighing on my mind alot lately. I just got finished reading Roderick Chisholm's "Theory of Knowledge," And I've been thinking alot about "the Problem of the Criterion." Have alot of questions still... I'd love to hear your take on your approach to epistemology. (Has there ever been a discussion about epistemology on this board?)

Oh yeah, you said that you were teaching part time ar UNLV. Doesn't Shandon Guthrie teach there also? I read his paper "Theism and Contemporary Cosmology" online and have read some of his debates. I enjoy his stuff... Anyway thatnks again for the input.

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. - C.S. Lewis

Alan Rhoda
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680

Posted 4/18/2003 1:12 PM (GMT -6)

My dissertation topic is, broadly speaking, the problem of induction, which is one form of the more general Cartesian skeptical problem of underdetermination. My proposed solution draws significantly, though not exclusively, on the work of American pragmatist Charles Peirce.

By the way, I just finished up reading a really good into book on epistemology. I'd say it's the best intro book I've read. The author is Michael Williams, and the book is called "Problems of Knowledge: A Critical Introduction to Epistemology". Williams is probably the top contemporary epistemologist specializing in the problem of skepticism.

Haven't met Shandon Guthrie. Didn't know he was at UNLV, but that isn't saying much. I don't hang around the Philosophy dept. that much, so it's quite possible that he is teaching there and I just haven't noticed. I'll keep an eye out for him.

Take care,
Alan

rossfadeinout
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428

Posted 4/18/2003 3:58 PM (GMT -6)

Alan, thanks for the info. I'll have to pick up the Michael Williams book.

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. - C.S. Lewis

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