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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 4/28/2003 11:33 AM (GMT -6) |   | Here's something that's been bothering me lately. Most evangelical churches like Woodland Hills preach that Jesus wants us to pursue an intimate personal relationship with Him, but I don't see anywhere in the Bible where this is made very clear. I mean there are the passages where Jesus said that some would claim they did wonders in His name and He will say to them that He never knew them. But, I don't see anything that explicitly states in so many words, "Be intimate with Jesus like a father, brother, husband, friend, etc." It talks about fervant prayer as being vital to knowing God, but nowhere does it outrightly say that we're to pursue an 'intimate personal relationship' with Jesus. I guess I'm curious where this idea or as it were, revelation, came from as I was raised in a Lutheran Missouri-Synod church that never made any of this personal relationship stuff very clear to me or anyone else there.
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 4/28/2003 2:52 PM (GMT -6) | | Off the top of my head, there is the example of Mary and Martha, where Mary, who devoted herself to making the most of Jesus' presence in their household, is held up as the example.
Likewise, when the children came and wanted to talk to Jesus, he also rebuked his disciples for dismissing them saying that Jesus had better things to do. Now, Children would want nothing more than to develop personal relationships with Jesus.
We also have the disciples as examples, who did form strong personal relationships with Jesus, particularly John. So much of Jesus ministry included socializing with undesirables, sinful people with the goal of establishing relationships that would change their lives.
I think that, like the trinity, it is quite implicit, though never explicitly spelled out.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Terry_Baxter
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 187
| Posted 4/28/2003 5:50 PM (GMT -6) | | (This is a fairly knee-jerk response--I will think on it and revise.)
The Bible is pretty clear that making God in our own image is a temptation as big as anger and lust.
What was the image of God in the medieval period (broadly speaking)? Authoritative, distant, supremely logical and rules oriented. There wasn't a lot of writing about 'god loving you and having a plan for your life' from the scholastics.
How does God get portrayed in the Era of Self Esteem? As someone who has 'unconditional positive regard' for all.
Two ways to think about this:
1) Either God is truly "The Answer" to all our problems so He can be construed as the ultimate end of whatever desires biology, human nature, and society present to us.
--When life is nasty, brutish and short, and society hangs together on the thin cord of a strict social hierarchy, God is seen as the provider of heaven (to rescue us from our miserable lives) and as the only being superior to the King.
--When modernity and capitalism present us with the possibility of upward mobility, but the curse of anonymity--where we feel disconnected from a community, family, and the circle of life--we are promised that God wants to give us love, a close personal relationship, and a "plan" for our lives.
2) The stuff about a "personal relationship" is a way for Modern Westerners to contain God. We don't make statues, but we do make him fit what we want and need. For instance, we don't like the stuff about laws and rules, so we focus on Him being loving.
I'm suspicious of theologies that never disappoint me, where God always offers exactly what (the world tells me) I need. It rings more true to me when I read, "I wish the Bible didn't say this, but it seems to."
Terry
"Be God's"
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/28/2003 6:42 PM (GMT -6) | | My wife (whom I love and respect!) was commenting on how many pop-Christian outlets and trends issolate "Jesus" at the expense of worshiping God in Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I hear you, Terry!
THE "TRISAGION"
In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
Glory to Thee, our God, glory to Thee!
O Heavenly King, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, Who art everywhere and fillest all things; Treasury of Blessings, and Giver of Life - come and abide in us, and cleanse us from every impurity, and save our souls, O Good One.
Holy God! Holy Mighty! Holy Immortal! Have mercy on us. (3x)
Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.
O most Holy Trinity, have mercy on us.
O Lord, cleanse us from our sins.
O Master, pardon our transgressions.
O Holy One, visit and heal our infirmities, for Thy name's sake.
Lord, have mercy. (3x)
Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.
Our Father, Who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy Kingdom come; Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Lord, have mercy. (12x)
Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.
Come! Let us worship God, our King!
Come! Let us worship and fall down before Christ, our King and our God!
Come! Let us worship and fall down before Christ Himself, our King and our God!
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 04/28/2003 11:45:17 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 4/29/2003 1:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Genesis 3
8. Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
This was God's call to us in the beginning, and remains so.
peace and love, don
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"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/29/2003 2:32 AM (GMT -6) | | John 6
53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
58 "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."
Intimate? Sounds kind of unusual as well.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/29/2003 4:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Terry,
Bottom line, I pretty much agree with what you've stated here. Nuff said. 
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/29/2003 5:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Tigress-
This is easy! The command to pursue an intimate and personal relationship with God is THE greatest command of all Scripture and THE hub around which our world ought to spin hopelessly outta control!
Behold: "LOVE the Lord you God with ALL your heart, soul, mind, and strength...."
If you can do THAT without being intimately personal with God, let me know how!
Actually, in terms of ancient Near Eastern commands regarding deities, the command to "love" one's god with all one's heart, soul, mind, and strenght stands out on the horizon like a nuclear explosion. You can't miss it. This IS the command you're looking for.
I think the purpose of ALL preaching, teaching, and counseling is to endear people to this kind of love for God.
Personally and intimately,
Tom
Edited by - TGB on 04/29/2003 10:47:23 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/29/2003 5:21 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/29/2003 5:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
quote:
Behold: "LOVE the Lord you God with ALL your heart, soul, mind, and strength...."
If you can do THAT without being intimately personal with God, let me know how!
Hmmm...I wonder does the historical and cultural context in which one finds themselves countour HOW this ubiquitously held dictum plays out. What do YOU think? I think so. I think that our prevalent "psychologizing" zeitgeist will definitely make a difference on how we see loving relationships.
Moreover, I also think that a distinction needs to be made here. As I see it, Tigress is speaking about a specific idea of having an intimate personal relationship with Christ that seems to be lauded in much evangelicalism...not the idea of loving and knowing God in Christ. There is a difference there, yes?
"Smile. It could be worse." --from a good friend.
Edited by - MephEternal on 04/29/2003 11:01:10 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/29/2003 6:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Meph
Moreover, I also think that a distinction needs to be made here. As I see it, Tigress is speaking about a specific idea of having an intimate personal relationship with Christ that seems to be lauded in much evangelicalism...not the idea of loving and knowing God in Christ. There is a difference there, yes?
Go for it, Meph. Break it down for us, and unfold the pieces a bit. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/29/2003 6:39 AM (GMT -6) | | I've never heard the Scriptural command to love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and body called a "dictum."
I'm all for exploring the cultural context in which this command first appeared. Mephi thinks we'll find that a study of ancient Israel's cultural context would lead us to conclude that they would have understood the command to love God as requiring something less than "relational," less than "personal," and less than "intimate." I'm all ears.
Mephi: I think that our prevalent "psychologizing" zeitgeist will definitely make a difference on how we see loving relationships.
Tom: Are there cultures in which people have no experiences which are "personal" or "intimate"? Or which have no way of expressing such experiences in language? No concept of "personal" or "intimate"? Or which would interpret loving God with all one's heart, soul, mind, and strength in neither personal nor intimate terms? Can you provide an example of such a culture, Mephi? Such a love? Well, what you need to show is that ancient Israel's culture had no concept of such love. If there are other cultures that have no concept of personal and intimate love, we don't do them any favors by leaving them there to interpret "love for God with ALL one's..." as being anything other than deeply personal and supremely intimate.
Mephi: Moreover, I also think that a distinction needs to be made here. As I see it, Tigress is speaking about a specific idea of having an intimate personal relationship with Christ that seems to be lauded in much evangelicalism...not the idea of loving and knowing God in Christ. There is a difference there, yes?
Tom: None that I can see. At best you could argue a differce in the OBJECT of such love. But you couldn't argue that all-heart-soul-mind-strenght love for GOD is a personal and intimate love but that all-heart-soul-mind-strength love for Christ is not.
Tigress, do YOU interpret loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength in a less than personal and intimate way? If you're comfortable viewing loving GOD this way in personal and intimate terms, are you for some reason uncomfortable viewing loving CHRIST in personal and intimate terms?
"Personal" and "intimate" are hardly concepts born of recent psychoanalytic sciences. I can't think of anything more universal and ancient to human experience.
Tom
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/29/2003 7:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
quote:
I'm all for exploring the cultural context in which this command first appeared. Mephi thinks we'll find that a study of ancient Israel's cultural context would lead us to conclude that they would have understood the command to love God as requiring something less than "relational," less than "personal," and less than "intimate." I'm all ears.
This is not what I'm saying. I am not saying that the essence of the Great Command has nothing to do with intimacy, relationality, or such. What I'm saying is that using the terms "intimate personal relationship" does NOT demonstrate HOW this is understood by folks, and inevitably plays out in the minds and actions of those folx. I am thinking that Tigress has a specific IDEA in mind when she talks about the "intimate personal relationship" that evangelicals talk about. I am personally thinking about the more highly individualized, easy-going, "Jesus as MY best buddy/closest friend/personal shrink" idea that is sometimes hinted at by evangelicals who want you to accept Jesus as your "personal" savior. The one big PERSONAL answer to all the personal problems that you just happen to have. This is distinct from your idea. This is NOT talking about 1) honest openness with 2) deep communion with and 3) loving passion for God which I think you, Tom, are talking about. If THIS is what I think you mean by "personal intimate relationship", then I would agree with that. That's what I think about when I hear the Greatest Command. I believe that there is indeed a distinction between the idea of loving and knowing God in Christ and the "intimate personal relationship" with Christ as understood by some evangelicals that use the terms. THIS is why I agree with Terry. From his quote (emphases mine):
quote:
What was the image of God in the medieval period (broadly speaking)? Authoritative, distant, supremely logical and rules oriented. There wasn't a lot of writing about 'god loving you and having a plan for your life' from the scholastics.
How does God get portrayed in the Era of Self Esteem? As someone who has 'unconditional positive regard' for all.
Two ways to think about this:
1) Either God is truly "The Answer" to all our problems so He can be construed as the ultimate end of whatever desires biology, human nature, and society present to us.
--When life is nasty, brutish and short, and society hangs together on the thin cord of a strict social hierarchy, God is seen as the provider of heaven (to rescue us from our miserable lives) and as the only being superior to the King.
--When modernity and capitalism present us with the possibility of upward mobility, but the curse of anonymity--where we feel disconnected from a community, family, and the circle of life--we are promised that God wants to give us love, a close personal relationship, and a "plan" for our lives.
2) The stuff about a "personal relationship" is a way for Modern Westerners to contain God. We don't make statues, but we do make him fit what we want and need. For instance, we don't like the stuff about laws and rules, so we focus on Him being loving.
See whut I'm saying now?
And how did I know that leaving that italicized Christ was going to come back to haunt me? I started to change it back, but I was too lazy. That's what I get...heh. The italicized Christ meant nothing.
PS: The use of the word "dictum" was not meant to devalue the Great Commandment in any way. Just another word I decided to use. No biggie.
PSS: From a thesaurus...
Entry: dictum
Function: noun
Definition: decree
Synonyms: affirmation, assertion, command, declaration, dictate, edict, fiat, order, pronouncement
Concept: demand
Source: Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright © 2003 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.
"Smile. It could be worse." --from a good friend.
Edited by - MephEternal on 04/29/2003 12:17:06 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/29/2003 7:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Tigress-
You said that the notion of pursuing an intimate personal relationship with Christ has been “bothering" you lately. What exactly bothers you? The fact that:a) some preach that Jesus wants us to pursue him in this way, or
b) Jesus would want us to pursue him in this way, or
c) there’s no explicit claim from Jesus that he wants us to pursue him in this way? Which is it? That’ll help the conversation.
I appreciate your upbringing in the Lutheran Missouri-Synod. I’m smiling as I ask you this : Do Lutherans in Missouri have NO concept of what relating personally and intimately to another person means? More personally (no pun intended), have you no relationship in your life which you think of as being personal and intimate? Are you uncomfortable with the idea of relating to God (or Jesus) in a personal and intimate way?
I shared the Old Testament passages which Jesus taught was THE heart of it all: loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Mephi thought it was important to distinguish loving GOD in this way from loving CHRIST in this way. I want to say two things about this attempt at distinction: 1) I don’t think the distinction exists; I think there are some good passages that challenge us to LOVE Jesus as well, and 2) (for Mephi) this distinction would not help Tigress since she grew up in the Lutheran Missouri-Synod having never heard mention whatsoever of a “personal, intimate relationship” with God.
Now, Tigress, if you are familiar and totally into pursuing a personal, intimate relationship with GOD as a Christian but have problems pursuing the same sort of relationship with CHRIST as a Christian, or describing your relationship with Christ in “personal” and “intimate” terms, then I’d like to know why.
Back later with some more references.
Tom
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/29/2003 7:18 AM (GMT -6) | | Now, see what one set of misplaced italics can do to a convo? Sheesh. Learn from this idiotic snafu of mine, peeps. 
Lovelovelove,
"Smile. It could be worse." --from a good friend. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/29/2003 7:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Mephi-
Gotcha! Now we're tracking.
quote:
2) The stuff about a "personal relationship" is a way for Modern Westerners to contain God. We don't make statues, but we do make him fit what we want and need. For instance, we don't like the stuff about laws and rules, so we focus on Him being loving.
See whut I'm saying now?
Totally. This is neither personal nor intimate. This is just determinism all over again, just in reverse: instead of believing we exist for God to be determined by him, God is seen as existing for us to be determined by us.
But...
I didn't see this at all in Tigress' post. If that's what's going on then OK. What makes me wonder is that the "personal, intimate relationship" stuff she's referring to is the stuff being preached at WHC. Am I missing something?
Tom
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 4/29/2003 8:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Wow! I got a lot of responses in less than 24 hours! Thanks Everyone! To clarify, when I asked about where the Bible says to pursue a personal relationship with Christ, I meant the Triune God. I'm not making a distinction between the three members of the Trinity in this particular instance. So, my question is not about pursuing an intimate relationship with only Christ or only The Father, but rather with the whole Trinity.
In response to the question about the Lutheran Missouri-Synod denomination: first of all, my church was in the Chicago area - not Missouri. There are many Lutheran Missouri-Synod churches in the country, and I don't think that each parish's stance on a personal relationship with God was ever determined by people in Missouri alone. If that were the case then the churches in Minnesota would really be cold and unfriendly as people of Scandinavian origin are so dang uptight and reserved that it's difficult to pursue close relationships with Minnesotans of that heritage. I think that more traditional churches like Lutheran, Catholic, Methodist, etc. are probably less inclined to preach about this personal relationship stuff, yet they are all deeply grounded in the Bible, so where did this relatively new "revelation" about a personal relationship with God come from? Has this concept been in the Bible all the time but simply misinterpreted until the last few decades? Because I've read the Bible cover to cover 5 times in 4 translations (I'm currently reading a 5th translation) and I haven't seen any words or phrases that clearly indicate that any of us are supposed to treat Jesus/God like a husband in the literal sense.
I desperately want to, though. So please show me these passages. Thanks!
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
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Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 4/29/2003 8:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Wow! I got a lot of responses in less than 24 hours! Thanks Everyone! To clarify, when I asked about where the Bible says to pursue a personal relationship with Christ, I meant the Triune God. I'm not making a distinction between the three members of the Trinity in this particular instance. So, my question is not about pursuing an intimate relationship with only Christ or only The Father, but rather with the whole Trinity.
In response to the question about the Lutheran Missouri-Synod denomination: first of all, my church was in the Chicago area - not Missouri. There are many Lutheran Missouri-Synod churches in the country, and I don't think that each parish's stance on a personal relationship with God was ever determined by people in Missouri alone. If that were the case then the churches in Minnesota would really be cold and unfriendly as people of Scandinavian origin are so dang uptight and reserved that it's difficult to pursue close relationships with Minnesotans of that heritage. I think that more traditional churches like Lutheran, Catholic, Methodist, etc. are probably less inclined to preach about this personal relationship stuff, yet they are all deeply grounded in the Bible, so where did this relatively new "revelation" about a personal relationship with God come from? Has this concept been in the Bible all the time but simply misinterpreted until the last few decades? Because I've read the Bible cover to cover 5 times in 4 translations (I'm currently reading a 5th translation) and I haven't seen any words or phrases that clearly indicate that any of us are supposed to treat Jesus/God like a husband in the literal sense.
I desperately want to, though. So please show me these passages. Thanks!
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 4/29/2003 9:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Oops sorry. I didn't mean to post duplicates of the same message. Is there some way I can delete one of them? (I'm not too computer saavy.  ) Thanks!
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/29/2003 9:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Oops sorry. I didn't mean to post duplicates of the same message. Is there some way I can delete one of them? (I'm not too computer saavy. ) Thanks!
Tigress
Any post that YOU do has a little garbagecan icon on the rightmost end of all the other icons. Press it, and follow the instructions. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
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Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 4/29/2003 9:49 AM (GMT -6) | | I don't see a little garbage can icon anywhere.
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/29/2003 10:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Tigress-
OK, accross the top of YOUR posts you have several icons which if you click on them you can do certain things. You've already responded to posts, so you know about the icon that has a little arrow over a piece of paper. To the right of that is a similar icon but with a little garbage can over it. That's the one. (Or don't Lutherans in Missouri have garbage cans? Just kinddin. So the Missouri-Synod is in Chicago too?)
I'll pass some passages on to ya, but for now let me just say that it's very possible to attend church (depending on your tradition) your entire life and never hear about a personal relationship with God. About not seeing it there when you read the Bible, well, obviously you won't see the words "personal intimate relationship." If you're looking for that forget it. But you already believe in a lot of stuff about God that isn't explicitly mentioned in the Bible using the exact words you use when expressing your faith, like eh, like the "Trinity." But what we mean when we say God is "triune" IS in the Bible. Likewise, what we mean when we talk about having a "personal, intimate relationship" with God is not in the Bible in exactly those terms, but what we refer to by this phrase IS in the Bible.
While I'm thinking about posting those passages, can you asnwer the questions I asked you in my last post to you (about what "bothers" you when people talk about a personal, intimate relationship with Christ and about what YOU think of when you hear the words "personal, intimtae relationship").
Tom
Edited by - TGB on 04/29/2003 3:32:30 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
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Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 4/29/2003 10:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom wrote:
[You said that the notion of pursuing an intimate personal relationship with Christ has been “bothering" you lately. What exactly bothers you? The fact that:
a) some preach that Jesus wants us to pursue him in this way, or
b) Jesus would want us to pursue him in this way, or
c) there’s no explicit claim from Jesus that he wants us to pursue him in this way?
Which is it? That’ll help the conversation.]
Tigress' response:
d) There's no clear mention of it in the Bible yet the teaching is so prevalent in Christian culture today.
Tom wrote:
[I appreciate your upbringing in the Lutheran Missouri-Synod. I’m smiling as I ask you this: Do Lutherans in Missouri have NO concept of what relating personally and intimately to another person means?]
Tigress' response:
I already answered this question in my previous post.
Tom:
[More personally (no pun intended), have you no relationship in your life which you think of as being personal and intimate? Are you uncomfortable with the idea of relating to God (or Jesus) in a personal and intimate way?]
Tigress:
Au contraire, I enjoy pursuing this type of relationship with my Creator but I just wonder if it's really Biblical and therefore the right way to view and relate to God. If it isn't, we could be treating Him in a way that's disrespectful and lessening His overall sovereignity in our lives. I think too many people treat Jesus simply like a buddy and don't give Him the glory and magnification that He deserves as the God of everything.
Tom:
[Now, Tigress, if you are familiar and totally into pursuing a personal, intimate relationship with GOD as a Christian but have problems pursuing the same sort of relationship with CHRIST as a Christian, or describing your relationship with Christ in “personal” and “intimate” terms, then I’d like to know why.]
Tigress:
I only learned about pursuing this radical, deep relationship with God once I was in college and joined a Christian organization. I like this concept but am troubled as to its origins because of the reasons I stated above. I'm not troubled about pursuing this relationship with God if it's truly what He's saying to do in His Word, but if we've misinterpreted it somehow and are approaching God in simply a watered-down, humanistic way, I fear that that could be a ploy of Satan that deconstructs God's natural order of things.
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 4/29/2003 10:54 AM (GMT -6) | | I'd say it's even an unscriptural approach to preach a "personal relationship with God" when witnessing. Note this article from Greg Koukl's site str.org (If you just want to go to the site where the doc came from, use this URL: www.str.org/free/studies/actslove.htm):
Preaching God's Love in Acts?
What was the emphasis in the evangelistic preaching of the Apostles as recorded in the book of Acts? Does the record of Acts support the notion that the central focus of Christianity is one's love relationship with God and personal life enhancement? Or did these disciples of Christ focus on something else?
The list below includes every instance of evangelistic preaching in the book of Acts, a summary of content, and an analysis of emphasis.
1. Pentecost, Acts, 2:14-39
Peter notes the manifestations of the Holy Spirit that all had been witnessing, then ties them to the fulfillment of prophecy of Joel about the last days. He then preaches Jesus as the Messiah--attested to by miracles and by the resurrection which was prophesied by David--and the guilt of the crowd for the crucifixion.
The emphasis is on forgiveness of sin by Jesus the Messiah. There is no mention of God's love or a relationship with Him.
2. Peter at the Gate Beautiful, Acts 3:12-26
After Peter and John healed a man lame from birth, Peter placed the blame for Jesus' death on the shoulders of the listeners. He then appealed to fulfilled prophecy and told them either to believe and return and thus receive forgiveness and times of refreshing, or be destroyed.
The emphasis is on forgiveness of sin by Jesus the Messiah. There is no mention of God's love or a relationship with Him.
3. Peter before the High Priest, Acts 4:8-12
Peter attributes the healing of the man lame from birth to Jesus the Messiah, whom the Jews had crucified, but whom God had raised from the dead. He quotes prophecy and says there is no other means of salvation but through Jesus. Peter then refuses to be silent about the Gospel.
The emphasis is on forgiveness of sin by Jesus the Messiah. There is no mention of God's love or a relationship with him.
4. Peter's Defense a Second Time before the Council, Acts 5:29-32
Peter proclaims the resurrected Christ as Prince and Savior who brings forgiveness of sin and gives the gift of the Holy Spirit. He accuses the Council of putting Jesus to death. They are so infuriated they want to kill the Apostles. Instead, on the advice of Gamaliel, the believers are flogged and released.
There is no mention of God's love or any kind of tender relationship with Him.
5. Stephen's Defense before the Council, Acts 7:1-60
Stephen recounts the history of the Jews in which they constantly rebel, rejecting God's deliverer. He accuses the Jews of being stiff-necked, resisting the Holy Spirit just as their forefathers had. He accuses them also of betraying and murdering the Righteous One, the Messiah. They are so filled with rage they murder him.
Emphasis is on the guilt of the Jews. There is no mention of God's love.
[Note: When God speaks to Saul about his future during the events surrounding Saul's conversion (Acts 9), there is no mention of an intimate relationship, only that Paul would suffer much for the sake of Christ.]
6. Peter's Message to the Household of Cornelius, Acts 10:34-43
Peter talks of the ministry of Jesus, His miracles, death on the cross, and resurrection. Peter tells the Gentiles it is his job to solemnly testify that Jesus is the One appointed by God to judge the world, that Jesus' coming was prophesied, and that belief in Him brings forgiveness of sin.
The emphasis is on Jesus, the prophesied Messiah who either brings judgment or forgives of sin. There is no mention of God's love.
7. Paul's Message to the Jews in the Synagogue at Pisidian Antioch, Acts 13:16-41
Paul preaches Jesus as the anticipated Savior, affirmed by John the Baptist, crucified by the Jews, who rose from the dead in fulfillment of prophesy. Paul then proclaims forgiveness of sin and freedom from the Law for all who believe.
Paul proclaims Jesus the prophesied Messiah crucified and resurrected. His emphasis is on forgiveness amidst warning.
8. Paul at the Areopagus in Athens, Acts 17:22-31
Paul discloses the nature of the "unknown God," One who is responsible for all creation, and in whom we all depend for our very existence. He calls all men to repent, because God has appointed a judge, a man who has risen from the dead.
Emphasis is on the nature of God, and the reality of judgment. There is no mention of relationship or God's love.
9. Paul's Defense before the Jews in Jerusalem, Acts 22:1-21
Paul gives his testimony, detailing his persecution of Christians motivated by his zeal toward God, his conversion on the road to Damascus, and how his sins were washed away in Jesus' name. When he mentions his mission to the Gentiles, however, the Jews protested violently.
Emphasis is on Paul's personal encounter with Christ, his own forgiveness from sin, and his subsequent mission. There is no offer of personal relationship with God or mention of God's love.
10. Paul's Defense before the Sanhedrin, Acts 23:1-6
Paul says he is on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead. There is no mention of the love of God.
11. Paul's Defense before the governor, Felix, Acts 24:10-21
Paul establishes his innocence regarding the Jews' charges, then affirms the Law and the Prophets and the general resurrection of both righteous and wicked, a belief for which he says he is on trial.
There is no mention of God's love or even of forgiveness.
12. Paul before Felix and Drusilla, Acts 24:24-25
Paul speaks of righteousness, self-control, and the judgment to come which frightens Felix who then sends Paul away. There is no mention of God's love or of a personal relationship with Him.
13. Paul's Defense before the Agrippa, Acts 26:1-29
Paul gives his testimony, noting the importance of the resurrection. He tells of the commission Jesus had given him, proclaiming the Gospel with a goal of deliverance from Satanic darkness to receiving forgiveness and an inheritance from God. Paul claims his message is the same as the prophets regarding the Messiah's suffering and resurrection.
Emphasis is on the resurrection of Christ, prophetic fulfillment and forgiveness, and Paul's responsibility to preach the Gospel. There is no mention of love or a relationship with God.
The love of God is never mentioned a single time in the entire book of Acts.
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 4/29/2003 11:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Starkman,
I think that the examples you gave of all of God's forgiveness inherently assume God's love for us behind that forgiveness. So, even though there's no explicit word or phrase that mentions God's love, it is assumed because of the act of forgiveness. One cannot forgive unless one truly loves. Otherwise it would only be acquitting someone, which is a far cry from forgiving them.
My inquiry is in regards to engaging in an intimate relationship with God on a personal level like friends would have together, or like a married couple, etc. That's the difference. God's forgiveness of us proves His love for us, but what I'm looking for is the proof for the kind of relationship with Him that contemporary Christian culture preaches? The kind of give and take that occurs within the boundaries of two people who love each other deeply. Is this really what God/Jesus/The Holy Spirit is looking for from us? Or was it simply a correcting of our positions in creation so that order could be restored and God's enemies (Satan and his demons) would be defeated? Are we to assume that Adam and Eve really did have the same kind of relationship with God as they had with each other? Or was God more like a zookeeper, if you will? A kind and loving zookeeper, but zookeeper nonetheless. I doubt that this is the case, but I still want proof of it to be sure.
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
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