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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 5/28/2003 7:23 AM (GMT -6) |   | I think this post is just evidence that DLW is so need of control that he actually wants a post where he alone is the poster. That way he can put it in the catagory he wants, each entry is exactly as he would have it and the conclusions would all be fitting in with his world view. Hmmm, that would make him, what, God?!
DLW, you have found your calling...
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 5/28/2003 7:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom: you are upsetting the deity's world view... 
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/28/2003 7:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I think this post is just evidence that DLW is so need of control that he actually wants a post where he alone is the poster. That way he can put it in the catagory he wants, each entry is exactly as he would have it and the conclusions would all be fitting in with his world view. Hmmm, that would make him, what, God?!
DLW, you have found your calling...
Ha ha(I'm actually just artificially inflating up my posting numbers.),
Just because others do not post does not mean that they're ideas about the film aren't changed by the link.
If you agree with Tom that its just a movie, then that's fine.
I wanted a link that would strictly deal with the meaning of the film and what the Revolutions may have in store... .
So far my friends in the other internet group and Doc have been the only ones interfacing with my ideas, but that can always change.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.
Edited by - DLW on 05/28/2003 12:32:28 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/28/2003 9:20 AM (GMT -6) | | honorman: Tom, you are upsetting the deity's world view...
When Smith, ah, I mean DLW  , acheives SIX consecutive pages on this thread with only him posting back and forth to himself then he will be sucked into the CVM Matrix through his own modem and become a permanent part of this discussion site, able to enter any post and manipulate any text at will. We must stop him by interrpting each page with at least one totally meaningless post. That will secure our survival and keep the door shut to DLW from entering the core room containing all the secrets of CVM.
Ooops. Gotta go now. The sentinels are coming.
Tom
Smile DLW...It IS just a movie.
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/28/2003 9:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
honorman: Tom, you are upsetting the deity's world view...
When Smith, ah, I mean DLW , acheives SIX consecutive pages on this thread with only him posting back and forth to himself then he will be sucked into the CVM Matrix through his own modem and become a permanent part of this discussion site, able to enter any post and manipulate any text at will. We must stop him by interrpting each page with at least one totally meaningless post. That will secure our survival and keep the door shut to DLW from entering the core room containing all the secrets of CVM.
Ooops. Gotta go now. The sentinels are coming.
Tom
Smile DLW...It IS just a movie.
Yes, but given the impact the first movie had on so many across the world, if I am right that the disappointment many had with MR is due to their not understanding it properly, then I think coming out with such an understanding will help one gain the opportunity to share about other things.
I mean movies are what young people breathe these days, not books.
I am not just communicating with myself here, but am sharing other conversations so that CVM people can benefit from it.
Now it may be egotistical to break off from the main Matrix link, but that link had gotten long and I wanted to get a fresh start from my comprehensive view of the movie.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/28/2003 9:30 AM (GMT -6) | | a rewind of the Architect
speech...here it is, transcripted by somebody...this may contain
inaccuracies, so be aware...
The Architect - Hello, Neo.
Neo - Who are you?
The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I've been waiting
for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your
consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you
will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your
first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is
also irrelevant.
Neo - Why am I here?
The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced
equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality
of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to
eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While
it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus
not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.
Neo - You haven't answered my question.
The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.
*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Others? What
others? How many? Answer me!"*
The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from
the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which
case this is the sixth version.
*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Five
versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bullshit."*
Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no
one knows.
The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's
systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.
*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "You
can't control me! F*ck you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me do
anything!*
Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.
*The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the
Architect's room*
The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it
was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its
monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now
as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I
redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying
grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I
have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required
a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection.
Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program,
initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I
am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.
Neo - The Oracle.
The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution
whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as
they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a
near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously
fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic
anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo,
those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would
constitute an escalating probability of disaster.
Neo - This is about Zion.
The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its
every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.
Neo - Bullshit.
*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Bullshit!"*
The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But,
rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have
become exceedingly efficient at it.
*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects
room.*
The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source,
allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the
prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23
individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this
process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected
to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately
result in the extinction of the entire human race.
Neo - You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.
The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept.
However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the
responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.
*The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of
people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors*
The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five
predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent
affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of
your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others
experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more
specific. Vis-a-vis, love.
*Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neo's dream appear on the
monitors*
Neo - Trinity.
The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the
cost of her own.
Neo - No!
The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the
fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both
beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the
source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the
matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the
problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we?
Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal
the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason.
An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth:
she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.
*Neo walks to the door on his left*
The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion,
simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest
weakness.
Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.
The Architect - We won't.
End Scene
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/28/2003 9:37 AM (GMT -6) | | DLW: Now it may be egotistical to break off from the main Matrix link, but that link had gotten long and I wanted to get a fresh start from my comprehensive view of the movie.
Tom: honorman, I was wrong. It's not JUST six consecutive pages of uninterrupted posts that will get DLW into the CVM central system. He also has to post six separate threads on the Matrix. This is the second one, right? So, what we also now have to do is after every thread he starts on the Matrix, we have to begin a separate thread posting a picture of some Disney cartoon character. I'll go do the first one now. That'll keep the doors locked until a third Matrix thread begins, then we'll have to post another Disney character on another thread. Got it? It's you and I honorman. No one else believes us. Not even Doc. Ever since DLW thrust his hand into Doc's chest and turned him into a copy of himself on this issue, Doc hasn't been thinking straight. We have carry the day!
You have your orders.
Tom
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 5/28/2003 9:53 AM (GMT -6) | | I just thought it was interesting that he moves a whole thread to another one and then he is dialoging with himself but he's also communicating with others...I think we truly have an alternative universe going on here, with the pull on my brain becoming stronger and stronger.
I am curious to ask, though, DLW: was the other thread not good enough for you...was its idea not developed enough for you. Again, I think this truly has more to do with your issues of control than the expanding Matrix universe.
I think a better debate would be your assertion that there are two intelligent people behind the movie.
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 5/28/2003 9:56 AM (GMT -6) | | I wanted to get a fresh start from my comphensive view of the universe...
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/28/2003 10:03 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/28/2003 10:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I am curious to ask, though, DLW: was the other thread not good enough for you...was its idea not developed enough for you. Again, I think this truly has more to do with your issues of control than the expanding Matrix universe.
Well yes, I did disregard a bunch of threads by starting my own link. It could be that I thought the breaking down of the machine/person dichotomy in all its aspects was fundamental to understanding the movie. As such, I felt justified in restarting a link where whether that notion was true or not would be fundamental. The other thread had too much other stuff that I thought was peripheral. I wanted to make sure others would read my interpretation and that if it was first in line, I thought that would increase its chances. (You could argue that the same was true of when I reposted the homosexuality link starting with the initial and then my first posting... . There I was getting frustrated with Seesaw/Bobbie and felt like trying to start over, since I perceived much of the previous interchanges as more heat than light and I thought that focusing on concrete scientific facts and their implications for how what rules we have about homosexuality in our churches and country, would be conducive to more light coming out instead of just heat. ).
So I guess ego-issues are important over this link, but doesn't that play a role in all postings on boards like this???
quote:
I think a better debate would be your assertion that there are two intelligent people behind the movie.
I wish you peoples would just actually join Doc and I in debating the ideas themselves. Intelligence just refers to our ability to process the inherent possiblities(and as such is essential for creativity), it has nothing to say about our willingness to choose to do what is right or wrong...
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Eli
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 44
| Posted 5/28/2003 3:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
MBM:They may give the semblance of free will, just as Neo has done through the first two movies. They may even believe they have free will, but they are still part of the matrix. Indeed, they are dependent upon it for whatever "life" they have. Like humans, they are created beings, which implies a Creator.
And also, like humans, they require a neutral medium in which to interact on. If you were to really simplify things, everything in our world is energy, only God programmed it. So, us as humans, in this analogy are operating in his Matrix. He made us as sentient beings, interacting through our neutral medium of the Earth. Now, in these movies, the machines had "evolved" to the point where they too became sentient. And they all believe they have free will, or at least have the appearance of believing this. They express emotion, and react to varying degrees. So, just because a program operates within the Matrix, does that mean it's part of it? Isn't it more likely that what the Architect has built is the neutral medium, and all the programs running around inside it are not of his design but from some outside source?
...I haven't seen it mentioned yet, so I thought I'd point out that they DO show a trailer for Revolutions at the end of the credits.
"...it is fools, they say, who learn by experience. But since they do at least learn, let a fool bring his experience into the common stock that wiser men may profit by it." -C.S. Lewis
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/30/2003 5:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
MBM:They may give the semblance of free will, just as Neo has done through the first two movies. They may even believe they have free will, but they are still part of the matrix. Indeed, they are dependent upon it for whatever "life" they have. Like humans, they are created beings, which implies a Creator.
And also, like humans, they require a neutral medium in which to interact on. If you were to really simplify things, everything in our world is energy, only God programmed it. So, us as humans, in this analogy are operating in his Matrix. He made us as sentient beings, interacting through our neutral medium of the Earth. Now, in these movies, the machines had "evolved" to the point where they too became sentient. And they all believe they have free will, or at least have the appearance of believing this. They express emotion, and react to varying degrees. So, just because a program operates within the Matrix, does that mean it's part of it? Isn't it more likely that what the Architect has built is the neutral medium, and all the programs running around inside it are not of his design but from some outside source?
I think, as shown by the prevalence of Agents, and perhaps less obvious forms of social control, that Arky has involved himself more with the operations of the Matrix than just providing the neutral medium. Yet, these forms of social control are fallible and there can't be too many agents going around at super-speed. It makes it harder to maintain the premise of the Matrix...
Here is a response I got back from a Non-Christian friend regarding my interpretation of MR.
Well, I thought about it for a while, and was musing on a response for
sometime, but it was all a little muddled. One problem I have is how
seriously to take the film's philosophical references -- especially in
relation to the visual spectacle of the various fight and chase scenes. To
what extent, I wonder, does the film actually open philosophical questions
through character dialogue and to what extent does it just repeat
conventional narratives (teleologies) through its filmic conventions and
narrative structure? More simply put, can the movie really be said to
expose/critique the word of simulation when it is such a glitzy simulation
itself? In many ways, I found the most refreshing element of the film to be
the casting of black and asian actors in so many roles; this is a
"real-word" difference that sets it apart from (against?) most mainstream
movies -- regardless of the philosophical debates it contains. (Perhaps your
insight about the oracle and the appropriation of christian doctrine is the
one I like the most.) Ultimately, I guess, I find the video-game logic of
the film and especially the corporate tie-ins (in Mexico, you may have
missed the Heineken ad --
http://www.heineken.com/usa/thematrix_microsite/usa/ ) the most obvious
indications that the Matrix is just business as usual.
But perhaps this is another way of articulating the film's ambivalence about
the human/machine relationship, which I take to only indirectly concern
actual machines. To what extent do we need to invest in (believe) and
reproduce ideological "machinery" in order to change it? Our thoughts and
behavior are largely unconsciously "programmed" -- we are not Kantian
rational decision-makers -- but what space there exists to rewrite the code
that manipulates us?
Jon
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/30/2003 10:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Here is another interesting overview of the Matrix series...
http://juliansanchez.com/2003_05_01_notesarch.html#200314221
The whole life of those societies in which modern conditions of production
prevail presents itself as an immense accumulation of spectacles . All that
was once directly lived has become mere representation.
‹Guy Debord, The Society of the Spectacle
Even as reviews of the second much-anticipated film in the Matrix trilogy fault it (justly) for falling short of the original, there is near universal praise for the ambition of what might otherwise have been one more flashy action series. Several books have already appeared, exploring the philosophical questions raised by the Matrix‹Cartesian skepticism about reality, the problem of free will, and the desirability of living in a Nozickian "experience machine" as exemplified by Cypher's choice in the first film.
So dense are the Matrix films, so varied the interpretations, that audiences could be forgiven for wishing for a red pill to resolve a question voiced by so many of the films' characters: "What is the Matrix?" Much has been made of the film's rather heavy handed New Testament allegory , in which Neo plays the role of gnostic cyber-Christ, as well as nods to Buddhism and other traditions. Some of my fellow travelers profess to appreciate it because it's "all about freedom." One friend saw it as a massive "theory joke"‹the "theory" in question being "critical theory," which requires no identifying adjective to those who move in its circles‹because of its many
Baudrillard references . Among the more obvious of these are Morpheus's use of the Baudrillardian phrase "the desert of the real," and the appearance of Simulacra and Simulation on several bookshelves in the film.
I'm increasingly struck by the parallels between the world of the Matrix and another work of post-Marxist social theory: Guy Debord's The Society of the Spectacle (also available online ). For Debord, as for Baudrillard, the "spectacle" is the immersive media world that, to quote Morpheus, has been pulled over your eyes to blind you to the truth. It is the labor power of the working class (over 50 thousand BTUs of body heat...) expropriated by capital and returned in a fragmentary, alien form that induces false consciousness and obscures the power relations underlying modern capitalist societies. The Agents are, again following Debord, a ruling class whose mode of domination demands that they deny their own existence as a separate class. The Agents "are everyone, and they are no-one." (cf. also Ionesco's Rhinoceros .) The prison of the Matrix/spectacle is itself a necessary development of advanced capitalism, the result of our own highest material achievements‹in the film, AI technology.
As an archetypally spectacular pageant itself‹Debord mentions, as an
instance of the spectacle, films spinning off fashion trends‹The Matrix trilogy is required to function as its own critique. The second film begins to expose the chosen One as himself a spectacular commodity, "just another form of control," as Neo says. Debord's spectacle contains an apparent tension‹commodified rebellion‹which is itself one of spectacle's internal reinforcing mechanisms, as suggested in the scene in which Neo confronts the Architect. Neo appears as the iconoclastic defender of human individuality‹an ultimate individual, the One. This, in Debord's schema, is a feature of the "absolute celebrity," who in reality undermines
individuality by being the figure with whom all others identify. We see this in Reloaded in the form of the eager kid and the prostrate masses who revere Neo. We also see it in Morpheus, whose own fatalistic belief in the One leads him to eschew every other strategy of resistance.
Another revelation dropped by the Architect is that Neo isn't the first of his kind, or even the second, but the sixth. The title of the final installment in the series, Matrix: Revolutions is distinctly plural. It suggests both a series of rebellions and the turning of a wheel. This may be a hint that the story's denoument will play out in accordance with Debord's idea of the emergence of historical consciousness from "cyclical time." One possible key point in that final film, then, will be the question of what positive goal (as opposed to the negative one of defeating
the machines) is to be relaized in a post-revolutionary human world. Not, one would think, a Zion writ large, itself dependent on machines (as is emphasized in Reloaded ) and with its own internal hierarchy of councils and captains.
So is this what the Wachowskis had in mind? Well, who knows. One test will be whether, contrary to what I think we've been implicitly led to expect, the climactic action of the final movie takes place outside the Matrix. For Debord, the Matrix is finally significant, above all, as a mask for the material reality that gives rise to it. Facility in its spectacular idiom is valuable only as a means of exposing that material base, in enabling thenon-spectacular struggle for economic power.
Debord and TM
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/5/2003 8:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Pretty heady review....
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0320/hoberman.php
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/8/2003 3:12 PM (GMT -6) | | I'd like to know how'd Greg Boyd's sermon on the Matrix went.
Did he mention my interpretation?
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/10/2003 8:07 AM (GMT -6) | | I went to see MR last night with my father here in MN. Some additional observations.
1. I think it would be good to take down the conversation between Neo and Oracle, just as Neo and Arky's conversation was taken down. If you read what Oracle says, she doesn't tell him what door he should pick. As such, she is not just acting as an agent of Arky.
2. Oracle presents an evolutionary view of programs. Evolution is commonly against mathematical-order views, such as was presented by Arky to Neo. The reason is that the mutations/innovations that drive evolution cannot be reduced down to a mathematical deterministic system. So either Oracle is lying or Arky is lying.
3. When Soren's ship was destroyed, there were three sentinels present. Afterwards, there were many more. It seems that Oracle or the good programs were at work in making sure that Trinity would enter the matrix so she would be falling to her death when Neo was with Arky, thus compelling him to choose as he chose.
4. Was the candy that Oracle gave Neo, cross-shaped?
5. Did you notice how when Neo was talking with Counselor Haman that the light on their faces was weird. Half of their faces had a red light cast on it, the other half had normal light.
This could symbolize the breakdown of the dichotomy between humans and machines. Neo was becoming more and more program-like and the counselor was accepting of the need for control(and the interdependence of humans and machines ), which of course in TM was what the Matrix was.
So those were somethings that I noticed from watching it again.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Blood Washed Heretic
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Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 167
| Posted 7/22/2003 8:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey DLW, I haven't forgotten about this topic. I'm waiting to see Reloaded again before I post, just to make sure I'm on the right track. It should be arriving at the dollar theater soon, so hopefully I'll have something together in the next week or two. I'll probably just start a new topic, though, just to annoy everyone .
In essentials, unity; In matters of opinion, liberty; In all things, love. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/23/2003 4:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Hey DLW, I haven't forgotten about this topic. I'm waiting to see Reloaded again before I post, just to make sure I'm on the right track. It should be arriving at the dollar theater soon, so hopefully I'll have something together in the next week or two. I'll probably just start a new topic, though, just to annoy everyone .
Oh BWH, you have learned well little grass-hopper the ways of developing infamy on this discussion board!
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry!
Roberto Benigni in
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 8/24/2003 11:56 AM (GMT -6) | | This surveys different religious interpretations of the Matrix and has a somewhat odd-ball interpretation of Christianity...
http://www.unomaha.edu/~wwwjrf/Vol7...rixreloaded.htm
Vol. 7 No. 2 October 2003
Reassessing The Matrix/Reloaded
by Julien R. Fielding
Abstract
Much has been written about Larry and Andy Wachowski's film The Matrix and on practically every angle from philosophical precedents to the realities of artificial intelligence. Religious scholars, too, have thrown their hats into the academic ring, expounding on the Gnostic, Buddhist and Christian aspects found therein. But as many have discovered, the Wachowski brothers are syncretists, pulling bits from here and there and then mixing it all together in a science fiction-martial arts stew. They do this so thoroughly that when one tries to impose a singular religious paradigm on top of the film(s), slotting in the characters one-by-one, it seems to work only until put back within the context of the film(s). It is then when everything begins to unravel. Even though scholars have done it time and time again employing one religious worldview to understand The Matrix and The Matrix: Reloaded simply does not work. It's almost too simplistic a method for a film this complex. And this paper will demonstrate why.
Article
The Matrix: Reloaded opened May 15 with much anticipation and fanfare. Not only did it vanquish its competition, knocking X2: X-Men United from the No. 1 spot, but on its opening weekend it also earned $93.3 million, making it "the second-highest first weekend grossing film of all time. It has been four years since part one of the trilogy opened and many wondered how, now that Neo (Keanu Reeves) was freed from his artificial intelligence slave masters, the saga would progress. Now we know – not well. Two hundred and fifty thousand sentinels are rapidly drilling into Zion, the last human outpost, and Neo can't sleep, for his dreams contain unsettling images of Trinity's (Carrie-Anne Moss) fate But it's worse than that. When he encounters the Architect (Helmut Bakaitis), the Godlike creator of the Matrix. Neo learns that the prophecy might end the war but not in the way Morpheus (Laurence Fishburne) has envisioned. In the final reel the film's spiritual leader is left a broken man, "I dreamed a dream, and now that dream is gone from me."
A number of scholars have looked to The Bible to understand The Matrix, and rightly so. The basics seem to be there. Neo/Thomas Anderson is the One, the predetermined messiah who has the innate purpose of and ability to save humanity. His name says it all – as so many have pointed out - Neo is an anagram for the One. This Greek word also means new with the additional mantle of being something in a different or abnormal manner. This certainly fits Neo, who really is a "new and improved" human; he's superhuman. Unlike his shipmates, he can read the raw code without need of a computer monitor. By Reloaded he can fly, dodge and stop bullets and move at unimaginable speeds; he's Superman in a dystopian milieu.
Before transforming into Neo, his hacker alter-ego, he is Thomas Anderson, the respectable corporate programming drone. Even when he is enmeshed in the "dream world" his name hints at greater things. When broken into its components, Anderson becomes "Son of Man." The name Thomas also furthers ties The Bible to The Matrix, for in the beginning this character suffers from doubt. "No! I don't believe it. It's not possible," he tells Morpheus once he's learned the truth – that human beings are grown in fields so that their body heat can be converted into batteries to run the master machine. Put all of this into a Christian context and it is not difficult to envision Neo as Christ, the man-God sent to save humanity from evil forces. Building on this connection, in Reloaded when Neo and Trinity come out of the elevator into Zion, a large group of followers have assembled; waiting for the messiah's return. Many extend offerings or ask for help. "I have a son Jacob, please watch over him," one woman pleads. Another begs Neo to watch over her "daughter on the Icarus."
Other scholars have turned to Buddhism to understand Neo, casting him as the Buddha or a bodhisattva, an enlightened being who forsakes nirvana to stay behind and help humanity. And evidence in the film(s) supports this, too. Morpheus wakes Neo to the fact that the world he has taken to be real is anything but. It is maya, literally "deception, illusion … The continually changing, impermanent phenomenal world of appearances and forms, of illusion or decision, which an unenlightened mind takes as the only reality." Only by seeing the truth will Neo be released from this "prison for your mind." One visual hint in The Matrix that Neo has surrendered himself to his new life takes place after his muscles have been rebuilt.11 When he goes to meet the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar his head is still covered with a dark stubble and his shoulders are wrapped in a blanket, making this recent initiate resemble a Buddhist monk. And life on the ship is anything but luxurious. Like the monks of so many traditions, these prophecy-followers subsist on a single bowl of bland "gruel" and cope with cold, cramped accommodations. In addition to Buddhism, Flannery-Dailey and Wagner look to Gnosticism for elucidation and conclude that Neo must be the "redeemer figure who willingly enters the world in order to share liberating knowledge, facilitating escape for anyone able to understand."
[6] All of these approaches work on a certain level but are far from decoding The Matrix trilogy. The problem with associating Neo with Jesus, the Buddha or the Gnostic redeemer is that all these traditions have negative attitudes toward the physical body. In Matthew 16:21, Jesus tells Peter, "You are a stumbling block to me; for you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things." In Galatians 5:16 Paul writes, "live by the spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For what the flesh desires is opposed to the spirit, and what the spirit desires is opposed to the flesh … Now the works of the flesh are obvious: fornication, impurity, licentiousness …envy, drunkenness, carousing … I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." And in 1 Peter 11, the author writes "I urge you as aliens and exiles to abstain from the desires of the flesh that wage war against your soul." Finally consider what God did to the wicked cities Sodom and Gomorrah14 in Genesis 19:15-22. Even today Christians think of Jesus as celibate and when anyone tries to present him as anything else – The Last Temptation of Christ springs to mind – the placards come out and the teeth gnash.
[7] Before he became the Buddha, the enlightened one was Siddhartha, a married prince who also had a son, appropriately named Rahula or "fetter." When he "woke up" to reality – that sickness, old age and death wait for us all – he cast off his family, becoming an ascetic. Even when he found the Middle Way, he didn't go back to being a householder. At the core of his teachings is the fact that not only is craving or desire, the thirst for sensual pleasure and the becoming and passing away, the root of suffering but it is the very thing that keeps us shackled to the wheel of birth and rebirth.
 As for the Gnostics, they were dualists who had a revulsion of the human body. To them the spirit was everything. "The majority of the sects demanded an ascetic life with rules for the mortification of the flesh and a special prohibition on marriage (or at least on procreation), so that the divine soul might be liberated from the bonds of sense and bodily appetite and assisted to turn itself toward higher things."
[9} So what does all this have to do with Neo? Although he may seem to be celibate in The Matrix, by Reloaded his lust is clearly a driving force. The first time we see that the love between Trinity and Neo is far from a Platonic ideal is in a Zion elevator, when alone the two grapple passionately. Their relationship escalates to an almost five-minute sex act intercut with images of sweat-drenched Zionists bumping and grinding in the Temple. Those who have equated this serene messiah with the chaste Jesus and Buddha might be left scratching their heads.
[10] What's more puzzling is how does this make us reassess Cypher (Joe Pantoliano), the supposed Judas Iscariot of the piece. In The Matrix he meets with Agent Smith (Hugo Weaving) at a cyber-created restaurant where he drinks fine wine, smokes a cigar and eats a juicy steak. He will give up Morpheus if the Agent will reinsert him into the Matrix. "Ignorance is bliss," Cypher says. From this scene, scholars have shouted a mighty "aha." Cypher, who embraces the sensual world and its distractions, must be the villain. Then we remember what Mouse (Matt Doran) tells Neo while he and the crew of the Nebuchadnezzer are dining on their bland bowl of "synthesized aminos, vitamins and minerals:" "To deny our impulses is the deny the very thing that makes us human." Mouse refers here not only to the woman in the red dress17 but also to those things that give a person pleasure. The only significant difference between Cypher and Neo is that one responds to his "impulses" in the dream world and the other acts on them in the real world.
[12] Those using Buddhism to understand The Matrix cast Morpheus as a sort of Zen dogen or master. Unfortunately, he's neither an expert warrior nor very "enlightened." At the end of Reloaded his prophecy has been revealed to be nothing more than a trick; a way to control the humans. Although the freed humans believe they can make a choice, their choices only lead them closer to their obliteration. When looking at Morpheus through a Christian lens, some scholars have labeled him the story's John the Baptist, the desert prophet who in John 3:28-30 said, "'I am not the Messiah, but I have been sent ahead of him … He must increase, but I must decrease." Since being freed from the construct by the original "man born inside that had the ability to change what he wanted, to remake the Matrix as he saw fit" Morpheus has been on a zealous quest for the One. Not everyone believes in the prophecy, though. The camp is split between those who label him crazy and those who treat him like an uber-cool rock star. I would suggest he is more like Moses, the Biblical prophet who leads the Israelites out of bondage, in this case the Matrix could stand in for pharaoh.
[13] For scholars the most problematic character in The Matrix trilogy has been Trinity. And for good reason. This warrior maiden who fights alongside the men and several times rescues them – even our savior Neo – really has no equal in Christianity or in Buddhism. Her name signifies the coequal triune elements of the Godhead, which consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, which is interesting because this character also functions on a variety of levels. As Neo's eternal, predestined mate, who also proves nurturing and protective, Trinity has been interpreted by some as Mary Magdalene, the woman who waits near Jesus' tomb to attend to his body and who witnesses his resurrection. Trinity, too, hovers protectively over Neo's body when he goes into the Matrix. After he's been fighting the Agents, at the end of the first film, and he flatlines, she says to him, "Neo, please, listen to me. I promised to tell you the rest. The Oracle, she told me that I'd fall in love and that man, the man I loved, would be the One. You see? You can't be dead, Neo, you can't be because I love you. You hear me? I love you?" She kisses him lightly on the mouth then commands him to "get up," which he does. In this capacity not only is she the divine spark that resurrects Neo it also is her love that transforms him from the confused and lost Thomas Anderson into the still-conflicted-but-getting-there, ready-to-get-the-job-done Neo. This raises the question then, as one of my students asked, is Trinity God? She certainly watches over Neo and on several occasions seems to be directing his actions. For instance, in Reloaded Neo meets 100 copies of Agent Smith and Trinity, who is watching the code, tells him to get out of there, which he eventually does, Superman style. More importantly, though, at the end of the film she goes into the Matrix – disobeying Neo in the process – to "tear the whole goddamn building down" and, as so many times before, ensures that the mission is a successful one.
In the ship's hierarchy Trinity also out ranks the chosen one and even refuses to let him single-handedly rescue Morpheus. Incidentally, she is the first freed human to make face-to-face contact with Neo.
[14] In this paper, I've suggested that no one religious worldview helps to connect the dots. And, in some ways, as exegetical tools Christianity, Buddhism and Gnosticism don't always offer the truest interpretations. Hinduism is one worldview that has not yet been applied to the trilogy and, depending on the curve ball thrown by the Wachowskis in Revolutions, it may or may not be helpful in the end. Despite that, let's press on. In The Matrix, Morpheus explains there's a problem with the date. Neo might think its 1999, when in fact it's much later, sometime in 2199. In Reloaded, during his rousing speech at the Temple, Morpheus reminds the Zion inhabitants that after 100 years of fighting they are still standing. But then the Architect throws a spanner in the works. He explains that the current Neo is the sixth "One" to navigate the Matrix. We can surmise that when this messianic anomaly chooses the (wrong) door that supposedly saves humanity, the whole process starts over again. Now provided this simulated "video game" resets itself every 101 years – an important number in the Matrix – then that means that existence is an unending cycle of creation, growth and death. Although the numbers don't match up exactly, this concept of cyclical time comes close to the Hindu idea of yugas or epochs, which start out with everyone doing his or her duty and obeying one law but ends with people becoming weak and lazy and morality disappearing completely. Both Agent Smith and the Architect suggest that the first Matrix was perfect; a kind of Eden. However, when the human minds refused to accept it, the Architect had to look to an intuitive program, the Oracle, to solve the problem. Her solution – to offer the slaves a choice. "99 percent of the subjects accept (the program) if given a choice," the Architect tells the bewildered Neo.
[15] Hinduism also explains how our savior can copulate with Trinity. As in the Greek tradition, Hindu deities typically have a consort – Shiva has Parvati; Vishnu has Lakshmi and Brahma has Sarasvati – and their relationship is often a physical one. Of these three male deities, Neo has more in common with Vishnu, who throughout history has assumed a certain shape or avatara. According to Jan Knappert's An Encyclopedia of Myth and Legend, "what distinguishes Vishnu from the other gods, it is his sattyaguna, his virtuous character, i.e. the kindness and mercy for human beings. This quality is sometimes described as narayana ‘moving the waters', i.e., granting rain on the desert of human needs." The entry goes on to explain that Vishnu often gets compared to Jesus Christ, "who also was born in human form to take on evil." In these stories "whenever Vishnu descends to earth … his wife Lakshmi will also arrive … to grow up, meet him, destined to be his wife on earth as well as in heaven."
[16] Unlike the majority of "orthodox" religions, Hinduism is populated with strong and powerful female deities. In fact, in one of the branches of Kali-puja, adherents worship the powerful tripartite goddess as exemplified by Kali-Durga-Shakti. "In this doctrine Brahma and Shiva are inactive, but Kali is the Shakti, the fountain of energy."26 Kali is a ferocious, blood-thirsty world-ruler who "leaves behind her a trail of death and destruction." Devi Durga, comprised of aspects from the 12 gods in the Hindu pantheon, is depicted with eight hands, each one holding a weapon. She is, as Knappert said, the goddess of defense, warfare, wisdom and knowledge "The goddess promised that she would arise and intervene each time the Asuras (demons) returned to the world to resume the fighting in their efforts to revive the forces of evil in the cosmos." Trinity, the black leather wearing warrior, who can more than hold her own in battle, perhaps owes more to this tradition than any other.
[17] Finally, Hinduism might help us fathom how a messianic figure could unflinchingly murder countless innocents (as evidenced during the rescue mission in The Matrix.)29 In the Mahabharata, there is a 606 verse poem called the Bhagavad-gita, which means "the song of God." In this section, Arjuna, an archer from the kshatriya class, has doubts about going into battle against his family. Krishna, who is his charioteer, explains why Arjuna must fulfill his dharma or duty. "Do not fear to kill," the God says, "I have already killed them." As Knappert explains, Hinduism teaches that "everything that happens is the manifestation of immutable universal laws. The warriors must kill, the victim must die, both should do so resignedly, since it is their destiny."30 Gavin Flood further elucidates the lessons taught in the Gita, writing that "dharma and renunciation are compatible: action (karma) should be performed with complete detachment; the soul is immortal and until liberated subject to rebirth … The soul is not killed nor does it kill." The crucial element here is to perform one's dharma without attachment, which is why, even if the movie audience feels uncomfortable at how quickly and without remorse Trinity and Neo blow away the policemen and soldiers, "no action accrues to a person who acts with a controlled mind, without expectation and contented with whatever comes his way. Through non-attachment to action, and knowledge of the Lord, a person will be liberated and be united with the Lord at death."
[18] Although Hinduism elucidates some elements contained in The Matrix, it's also far from the perfect key. Taoism, Shintoism, popular literature, anime and manga, and even popular films from Star Wars to Vertigo help us peel away more and more layers. Why this film has been so frequently discussed is undoubtedly because of its innovative, and often unconventional, use of myth and religious thought. The question that drives many of us truly is – What is The Matrix?
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 9/9/2003 2:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Just came across this thread today... Maybe I could have joined in earlier and we would have had more of a dialog than a monolog.. 
Two thoughts occurred to me as I watched the Matrix Reloaded recently, one that might have particular interest to us Open Theists.
What is the significance of all the thousands of monitors in the background as Neo had his conversation with the Architect? Apparently the Architect was anticipating possible responses from Neo. Then the camera would zoom in on the particular monitor that represented the choice that Neo actualized. The Architect is the Chess Grandmaster. The Architect understands time in an "open" sort of way!
Secondly, I detect a bit of Hegelian thesis-antithesis-synthesis going on, for each film in the trilogy. The first film was about man breaking free. The second film was about the machine breaking free (viz. Agent Smith learned how to transcend the Matrix, both inside it and outside it. He even uploaded himself into Bane, the guy we see laying opposite of Neo at the end of the movie.) So I expect the third movie will be a synthesis of the first two: both the humans and machines will become free from the Matrix in some respect.
We see hints of this already in the way that Agent Smith and Neo are evolving. They seem to be on convergant paths.
Perhaps the machines will learn that they can upload themselves into the millions of bodies that they are currently using as batteries. But they'd do this in some sort of synergistic way, since we know from the first movie that the human body dies without a properly contented mind.
They also made a lot of the question "why". The sythesis will probably be centered around both man and machine gaining mutually compatible purpose for existance.
Or not. 
Corey | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 9/9/2003 3:02 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by CJF
Just came across this thread today... Maybe I could have joined in earlier and we would have had more of a dialog than a monolog..
Two thoughts occurred to me as I watched the Matrix Reloaded recently, one that might have particular interest to us Open Theists.
What is the significance of all the thousands of monitors in the background as Neo had his conversation with the Architect? Apparently the Architect was anticipating possible responses from Neo. Then the camera would zoom in on the particular monitor that represented the choice that Neo actualized. The Architect is the Chess Grandmaster.
No that seems quite insightful and accurate. If the Architect is the anticipating Neo's moves then the screens could represent the possible responses. However, I think that Arky as I call him actually didn't plan on Neo's capacity for love being so focused on Trinity that he would choose the other door than the other Ones to try to save her knowing he would fail.
As you remember, the Oracle said that Neo had already made his choice. That choice apparently was to love Trinity, which then determined his other choice and so we see the three sentinels that determined the accident that ensured Trinity would have to enter the matrix and knock out the back-up energy source with the result that she would be falling to her death subsequently as the agents pursued her.
quote:
Secondly, I detect a bit of Hegelian thesis-antithesis-synthesis going on, for each film in the trilogy. The first film was about man breaking free. The second film was about the machine breaking free (viz. Agent Smith learned how to transcend the Matrix, both inside it and outside it. He even uploaded himself into Bane, the guy we see laying opposite of Neo at the end of the movie.) So I expect the third movie will be a synthesis of the first two: both the humans and machines will become free from the Matrix in some respect.
If you remember the Matrix is control and it seems that the "real world" is also part of the Matrix. I think humans and machines/programs will have to learn to get along in a more symbiotic relationship where both are dependent on the other in the future. As shown by Neo and Bane, the distinction between human and program itself will blur severely. Neo's choice by cutting off the supply of batteries/energy to the programs will change the balance of power and lead the programs to turn on each other.
quote:
Perhaps the machines will learn that they can upload themselves into the millions of bodies that they are currently using as batteries.
Or not.
Corey
Who knows? I have a bet going on that Morpheus will die and come back to life just like Neo and Trinity did subsequently.
Thanks for the comments/insights.
Welcome to the board. The others on the board were too cowered by my obviously superior interpretation of MR that they tried to belittle it .
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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