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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 9/11/2003 5:06 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Blood Washed Heretic
But the Oracle calls Mervy a "powerful program", DLW. If you're right, this suggests a couple things.
1) The Oracle is not as insightful as she seems, or
2) Neo himself is a program.
Both possible, but problematic. BTW, I just saw the movie again and am trying to organize my thoughts. I should be posting more soon.
Ah, Grass-hopper, the problem is that much of the distinction between human and program are being broken down. Neo is becoming more and more like a program, and yet remains irrevocably human, Mervy on the other hand underwent the same process that Neo went through in his oneness days, but lost grip of his humanity, and now acts just like a program, manipulating others to get more power on a constant basis. His choices led for him to lose his free-will and become nothing more than a program, albeit a powerful one.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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Laplace
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
| Posted 9/24/2003 12:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Don't know WHY I'm exactly replying to this, as this post is not meant really as a real-life (Christian or otherwise) analysis of the movie, but simply observations about the movie and a possible outcome of the 3rd movie (with explanations):
Even if the following prediction is incorrect, I certainly think it's an ingenius theory and would explain a lot in the movie. Besides that, it is different than any I've heard before.
*** Warning: POSSIBLE Spoilers ***
*** Additional Warning: If you haven't seen***
*** the movie yet you won't understand ***
*** anything I'm saying ***
Let me first say I originally thought Reloaded was just a big video game (but fun) with philosphical mumbo jumbo thrown in there for the sake of doing so. After discussions with my friend Matt, and further dialogue, we realized this may not be the case. And if the 3rd movie reveals these predictions to be true, they really do show the value of the dialogue and the entire story as a whole. I dare say, one of the most brilliant movie series ever made. Credits to him and his friend for the intial ideas.
Where to begin? Ah, let's start at the very end. Somehow, Neo is able to destroy the Sentinals despite the fact he is now supposedly outside the Matrix. I use the word "supposedly" as the key to everything here. The big twist, and the big answer to everything. What if, just if, they are all STILL in the Matrix. Impossible?
Submitted for your approval, you have a Matrix which needs humans to power it. However, as stated in the first and second movie, it was perfect, and yet it wasn't. The people somehow "rejected" it (hand-waving here about how people in deep REM sleep could reject things like that but hey, it's a movie). As Neo then said to the Architect, it was all about CHOICE.
However, Monsieur Gatekeeper said it wasn't about choice at all. Choice as he said, was an illusion, by those who have power and those who don't. What if this "choice" was all predetermined. From the multiple destructions of Zion, to the the multiple "The One"s, to a person who is to find "The One", to the Agents who exist to filter out who "The One" really is. etc. etc. Did not the Oracle say herself that what we do isn't so important as WHY we do something because the decision's already been made? Smith(s) said to Neo before their big brawl it was purpose. Purpose that created us, connects us, pulls us, guides us, drives us, defines us, binds us...and it's what Neo somehow tried to take away from him.
More on Smith. Why is he such a pivotal character in the movie (other than the fact he has a cool voice)? Because like Neo, he has rougue tendancies. In movie #1, he sort of "unplugged" himself from the matrix and told Morpheus he had to get out this place, this "zoo". He wanted to be FREE, just as much as he thought the humans were (which they weren't). However, when Neo "destroyed" Smith, apparently some imprint of Neo's sense of "freedom" was now a part of Smith. It's why now he could have power over the matrix (copying himself), but from a prior machines perspective he now wanted to take over the Matrix for himself (maybe). It's also why he wants to kill Neo, because he knows he's the only other one with this power, and wants to use it for freedom of humanity.
What's interesting to note is that Smith is able to duplicate himself in the supposed "real world" of Zion and yet remain in the Matrix. Further evidence that the Matrix is not as small as we originally thought.
And now to Neo. He is "The One" version 6.0, but this time he is different. Unlike the 5 before him, he CHOSE the door which would ultimately doom humanity just to save Trinity. Something I believe the Architect (Machine) was both suprised with and yet wanted to see happen at the same time. Remember that Neo was supposedly hardwired to do what he was "meant to do", as everyone else in the Matrix (and underlying theme in movie #2). Neo, the Keymaker, the Oracle. All was meant to be. When Neo was in the room of monitors if you look closely, the things the other "Neos" did were things he should've done/said. Sometimes he did (say "Bull****", etc.), but oft he didn't (flip him off, get upset instead of staying composed, etc.). Why the difference from the prior 5 "Ones"? Matt and I believe it because of the power of love. What the Matrix knows of but does not understand. And here is where the coaster ride really begins.
Say this is the history of humanity and the Matrix: History happened as movie #1 said it occured. There was a war between man and machine. The machines did win and enslave the humans. But the Matrix would have a Blue, er, Green Screen of Death every so often. That is because the humans somehow "rejected" the construct. They needed to CHOOSE the Matrix. But how? What if they set up this illusion of freedom. An illusion of a savior, a prophesy, and winning the war. Where you would continuously have cycles of "The One", and when the 25 new people were picked to build Zion (once again), and "The One" would die (probably killed by the Matrix), you would have this legend exist and a prophesy that the next time "The One" came, it would be the last time. Except it never happened. In fact, it was never SUPPOSED to happen as the Architect said. Yet Neo, the first and only one who broke away from the predicted outcome did. Why? Simply put, love. His love of Trinity is what overrode the rationale machines are so accustomed to. Such a thing is incomprehensible to machines, but can have such power. What if the machines wanted to manipulate this power to have humans not just be tricked into accepting the matrix, but "loving" it? Moreso, what if they wanted to harness this power for further monolopistic endeavors of their operating system? Perhaps that is where Trinity comes into play with all of this. This fascination with love is reflected in other scenes in Reloaded. The kiss that the Gatekeeper's wife wants to have with Neo. To kiss her as he would kiss Trinity. A taste of that kind of power, that she "envys", and how love is "written all over them".
Finally, what of the mysterious Oracle? Who is she really? Probably someone to study the human psyche as the Architect says. And in a way, "used" by the Matrix to lead "The One" to the path which always ended at the Architect. Her candy (which is red [think pills]) is symbolic in a way. She likes candy (the illusion, the lie of the Matrix), but is interested more in the future. I believe that because she was aware of this power of love, and for interest in humanity as well, was hoping that each time "The One" came along, he would choose the other path and not repeat the cycle. Of course if she knew this, then why not just scream out to him, "Pick what's behind door #2"? Because that wouldn't be freedom, true freedom which is a prerequisite of true love.
And this is where we come full circle. Neo begins to realize now that he is truly free because he now has power not only of the known Matrix, but the unknown Matrix as well (The supposed real world with Zion in it). And Smith also has a taste of this freedom, and is why in the final duel previewed at the end of Reloaded (it's worth the 10 minute wait through the credits), it says that EVERYTHING comes down to this. Either the machines (Smith) win, or humanity (Neo) does.
And what of Neo in the end? For those who are familiar with Japanese Animation as Ghost in the Shell or video games such as Deus Ex, I predict that somehow he will "merge" with the Matrix, to provide that human element in the machines with that power of love injected in there. For as the Counselor Haman and Neo were chatting, "we are plugged into them, and they into us". And such will bring a true end to the war and a new dawn of humans and machines.
Must see movies again, and if this isn't how the Revolutions is going to explain things (or be close), it better be a darn good ending to top this!
Any further contributions? I know, it's JUST a movie. But it's not just a movie, it's a REAL movie.
"I say we blast the meatbag, Master" -HK-47, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 9/25/2003 8:02 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laplace
Don't know WHY I'm exactly replying to this, as this post is not meant really as a real-life (Christian or otherwise) analysis of the movie, but simply observations about the movie and a possible outcome of the 3rd movie (with explanations):
Even if the following prediction is incorrect, I certainly think it's an ingenius theory and would explain a lot in the movie. Besides that, it is different than any I've heard before.
So where did you pick this up?
quote:
Where to begin? Ah, let's start at the very end. Somehow, Neo is able to destroy the Sentinals despite the fact he is now supposedly outside the Matrix. I use the word "supposedly" as the key to everything here. The big twist, and the big answer to everything. What if, just if, they are all STILL in the Matrix. Impossible?
The breaking down of the dichotomy between "the Matrix" and the Real World. There also are the gateways that belong to none of the above either. You also have the supposed effect of destroying the building Neo flew out of would have on all the humans connected to "the Matrix". Neo also sensed it when the smith-dude infected the human.
quote:
As Neo then said to the Architect, it was all about CHOICE
However, Monsieur Gatekeeper said it wasn't about choice at all. Choice as he said, was an illusion, by those who have power and those who don't. What if this "choice" was all predetermined. From the multiple destructions of Zion, to the the multiple "The One"s, to a person who is to find "The One", to the Agents who exist to filter out who "The One" really is. etc. etc. Did not the Oracle say herself that what we do isn't so important as WHY we do something because the decision's already been made? Smith(s) said to Neo before their big brawl it was purpose. Purpose that created us, connects us, pulls us, guides us, drives us, defines us, binds us...and it's what Neo somehow tried to take away from him..
This is somewhat confusing. Yes the theme of choice vs. predestination comes up quite frequently. I argue that the obverse of what Mervy said is shown to be true in MR. Predestination is used to manipulate others into accepting parts of reality.
Oracle was likely referring to Neo's having already made the choice that would determine which door he chooses when he makes it to Arky. That choice being to love Trinity more than anything else. The guy is right in that it is a supreme irony that what enables Neo to succeed where all of the other ones had failed was his choice to love Trinity so much, as opposed to vaguely loving all of humanity somehow.. My opinion is that Oracle et co. was manipulating Neo's dreams so as to affect this result and played a role in making sure Trinity would have to enter "the matrix" so she would be falling to her death when Neo was with Arky, choosing the door.
quote:
More on Smith. Why is he such a pivotal character in the movie (other than the fact he has a cool voice)? Because like Neo, he has rougue tendancies. In movie #1, he sort of "unplugged" himself from the matrix and told Morpheus he had to get out this place, this "zoo". He wanted to be FREE, just as much as he thought the humans were (which they weren't). However, when Neo "destroyed" Smith, apparently some imprint of Neo's sense of "freedom" was now a part of Smith. It's why now he could have power over the matrix (copying himself), but from a prior machines perspective he now wanted to take over the Matrix for himself (maybe). It's also why he wants to kill Neo, because he knows he's the only other one with this power, and wants to use it for freedom of humanity.
This is good way of understanding how the Smithster had shown evidence of a humanlike desire for freedom in TM that became more apparent in MR.
quote:
What's interesting to note is that Smith is able to duplicate himself in the supposed "real world" of Zion and yet remain in the Matrix. Further evidence that the Matrix is not as small as we originally thought.
right on..
quote:
And now to Neo. He is "The One" version 6.0, but this time he is different. Unlike the 5 before him, he CHOSE the door which would ultimately doom humanity just to save Trinity. Something I believe the Architect (Machine) was both suprised with and yet wanted to see happen at the same time. Remember that Neo was supposedly hardwired to do what he was "meant to do", as everyone else in the Matrix (and underlying theme in movie #2). Neo, the Keymaker, the Oracle. All was meant to be. When Neo was in the room of monitors if you look closely, the things the other "Neos" did were things he should've done/said. Sometimes he did (say "Bull****", etc.), but oft he didn't (flip him off, get upset instead of staying composed, etc.). Why the difference from the prior 5 "Ones"? Matt and I believe it because of the power of love. What the Matrix knows of but does not understand. And here is where the coaster ride really begins.
I think I stated this more concisely. It is love, but not love for everyone in a general sense, but a concentrated love whereby Neo can't be Neo without Trinity. The two have more than literally become one.
quote:
Say this is the history of humanity and the Matrix: History happened as movie #1 said it occured. There was a war between man and machine. The machines did win and enslave the humans. But the Matrix would have a Blue, er, Green Screen of Death every so often. That is because the humans somehow "rejected" the construct. They needed to CHOOSE the Matrix. But how? What if they set up this illusion of freedom. An illusion of a savior, a prophesy, and winning the war. Where you would continuously have cycles of "The One", and when the 25 new people were picked to build Zion (once again), and "The One" would die (probably killed by the Matrix), you would have this legend exist and a prophesy that the next time "The One" came, it would be the last time. Except it never happened. In
It seems that a good portion of our free-wills as humans is our ability to accept death and its inevitability rather than live in a lie.
There is no evidence "the ones" were killed. In fact, I believe Mervy himself was a one initially, which is why Persephone wanted so much to remember what is was like to be kissed romantically by Neo.
quote:
Finally, what of the mysterious Oracle? Who is she really? Probably someone to study the human psyche as the Architect says. And in a way, "used" by the Matrix to lead "The One" to the path which always ended at the Architect. Her candy (which is red [think pills]) is symbolic in a way. She likes candy (the illusion, the lie of the Matrix), but is interested more in the future. I believe that because she was aware of this power of love, and for interest in humanity as well, was hoping that each time "The One" came along, he would choose the other path and not repeat the cycle. Of course if she knew this, then why not just scream out to him, "Pick what's behind door #2"? Because that wouldn't be freedom, true freedom which is a prerequisite of true love.
I think it is likely that Oracle was manipulating Neo, but doing so in a subtle way through his dreams...
quote:
And this is where we come full circle. Neo begins to realize now that he is truly free because he now has power not only of the known Matrix, but the unknown Matrix as well (The supposed real world with Zion in it). And Smith also has a taste of this freedom, and is why in the final duel previewed at the end of Reloaded (it's worth the 10 minute wait through the credits), it says that EVERYTHING comes down to this. Either the machines (Smith) win, or humanity (Neo) does.
Yeah, but it is important to also consider that the deaths of so many human batteries will turn the programs against each other and the Smithsters will have a natural advantage in this conflict...
Hence, why Neo beats out the Smithster in the end(I'm guessing this will be a converted version of probably the Merovingian, or Mervy as I call him.
quote:
And what of Neo in the end? For those who are familiar with Japanese Animation as Ghost in the Shell or video games such as Deus Ex, I predict that somehow he will "merge" with the Matrix, to provide that human element in the machines with that power of love injected in there. For as the Counselor Haman and Neo were chatting, "we are plugged into them, and they into us". And such will bring a true end to the war and a new dawn of humans and machines.
Interesting, Neo is becoming more program-like, but I still think that Morpheus is going to die in his place and perhaps be resurrected in the manner that you describe...
Laplace, let me know where the dude that posted this is from so I can try and let him know about my own interp.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 9/27/2003 6:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Here are some more trailers...
http://entertainment.msn.com/movies/movie.aspx?m=232
It seems that cypher returns or something...
Also, Zion is in danger, but I suppose this is because the machines are going to want to re-enslave the Zion population...
Also Neo somehow gets trapped somewhere between our world and the machine world and apparently Mervy tells the others that they have to give him the eyes of the Oracle to get Neo back...
It doesn't make much sense as of yet, but it is intriguing.
Here is a commentary on the preview..
September 25, 2003 — MatrixFans.net has received a VERY detailed description of the Revoltions trailer that has already been shown in the UK. Here's a clip (SPOILERS):
It starts off with a long tracking shot, the camera flying along 3 huge powerlines in the desert of the real which seem to go on forever, before finally going over a rise as we see that they extend for many more miles beyond. Cut to the shot of Neo looking at that huge machine overlord orb-thing that we see in the "Control" spot, only we get more of the start of it, which actually shows that Neo is standing on the edge of some huge ledge or something, looking out over one of the "growing field" as the orb rises up infront of him and says "SPEAK!"
Fade to black, voiceover by Neo "The program Smith has grown beyond your control. You cannot stop him, but I can" various shots of Smith are played over the end of this, including the one of Smith stepping into the middle of the long raining street we've seen in the teasers, plus one of him that I'm 99% sure is him sitting at a table with the Oracle (although we don't actually see her), as well as a couple more shots of Smith and Neo standing in the rain that we've seen before.
"And if you fail?" the booming voice asks, which now appears to have a "face" of sorts. Cut to the shot of Smith flying through the wall and Neo jumping over him that we've all seen before, then back to Neo, his eyes covered in bandages, the same angle as he says the "Smith" bit before in the "Control" spot. "I won't" he replies, after which we see a "jack spike" enter his head, indicating that he jacks into the Matrix immediately after making this 'deal' with the machines.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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pig pen
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 13
| Posted 10/19/2003 9:35 AM (GMT -6) | | I just saw MR for the first and last time it's crap and DLW you need to get a life Try reading | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 10/19/2003 11:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Main message:
Clearly, Zion, "the ones" were all intended by Arky as forms of control, parts of the Matrix but the point is that, analogous with the African-American experience with Christianity,
something intended as a form of control can also become the basis for their liberation. Neo acheives the liberation where the others failed because of his choice to love Trinity more than anything else, with her reciprocating, allowed him to be manipulated by Oracle et. al into choosing the other door than the previous "ones" had chosen.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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pig pen
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 13
| Posted 10/20/2003 12:23 AM (GMT -6) | | | Is the Matrix trilogy written in book form or is it just a script? | | Back to Top | | |
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pig pen
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 13
| Posted 10/22/2003 5:39 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by DLW
I don't know you, but I spend my days reading, analyzing data sets. When I am on my free-time, I prefer to watch movies.
I'm sorry you didn't like MR. I tend to believe that if you'd reread my introductory essay to this link and watch it again, you might understand what was going on better.
dlw
So you can't answer my question, I did read this whole thread before I saw the move. I loved the first move but I find that most of the time the second film can not come close to the first move and are for the most part just cashing in on the fans of the original. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 10/29/2003 5:56 AM (GMT -6) | | A friend of mine wrote to me this...
At the end of the film, as the Nebuchadnezzar is
destroyed, Morpheus says, "I have dreamed a dream, and now that dream
has gone from me." Aside from being very close to the lyrics to a
Christina Aguilera song, it might be supposed that Morpheus is quoting
the Bible, perhaps the book of Daniel, which would fit with his ship
being named the Nebuchadnezzar. The most similar passage in Daniel is
the following from the KJV:
Daniel 2
3 And the king said unto them, I have dreamed a dream, and my spirit
was troubled to know the dream.
A few passages later, while interrogating his counselors on the
interpretation of the dream, N. says "The thing is gone from me" (both
verses 5 and 8). The KJV and the Amplified Bible seem to be the only
translations that use the words "The thing is gone from me"; others
translate it variously as "My word is firm" or some equivalent, which is
quite a difference in meaning, but that's ancillary to the Matrix
issues.
Some added information: a cursory Google search on Morpheus' phrase
reveals that some intrepid fans have pointed out that the license plate
on the car Trinity drives in the chase sequence is DA0203. Such a
detail would be in keeping with other W. brothers insertions of Biblical
passages into the model numbers of hover ships. So maybe the W.
brothers did have Daniel 2:3 in mind when they wrote Morpheus'
dialogue.
A passage from Numbers may also be relevant, if one takes the tack that
Neo is a prophet or Christ-figure (the two are one and the same
really):
Numbers 12
5 Then the LORD came down in a pillar of cloud; he stood at the
entrance to the Tent and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When both of them
stepped forward, 6 he said, "Listen to my words:
"When a prophet of the LORD is among you,
I reveal myself to him in visions,
I speak to him in dreams." | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 10/30/2003 5:24 PM (GMT -6) | | The Gospel Reloaded: Exploring Spirituality and Faith in The Matrix
Our price: $11.19 (20% off)*
Availability:
Usually ships in 24 hours*
To view this item, go to:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...786/ref=rm_item
*price and availability are subject to change.
Read the Amazon.com reviews of The Gospel Reloaded: Exploring
Spirituality and Faith in The Matrix here:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...834786/reviews/
Note this amazon review however....
CHRISTIANITY COOPTS THE MATRIX , October 11, 2003
Reviewer: hominuslupus (see more about me) from albuquerque, nm USA
This book really deserves two and a half stars. I give the authors credit for their more liberal slants on traditional christianity. That said, throughout its 2,000 year history christainity has played the role of mind control that the makers fo the Matrix movies are criticizing. A central theme of the Matrix Reloaded sequel is that the Machines are using the cult of Neo's messiahood as a mechanism of social control.
However, this book misses that point and joins the current trend in christianity to coopt popular aspects of pop culture (as opposed to creating anything original itself) and misuse them to gain converts. (Christianity, like Walmart, always needs new customers.) For that "original sin", I docked
the book a couple of stars. The authors seemed interesting and bright, why spend their time trying not to stand on the shoulders of the Wachowski brothers when the Wachowski brothers make movies that undermine the dogma of christianity?
now my commentary:
The dude should learn more about Christian history.
The Christian Churches were more often checks against the excesses of the state prior to the Catholic-Protestant Schism that resulted in a significant loss of autonomy of churches both protestants and catholic.
It is also noteworthy that prior to the rise of Islam, there were four centers of Christianity, not one, and the governance was less concentrated.
The point of the movie is not that control is evil, it is taken as inevitable ubiquitous outside of "the Matrix", but subject to extreme abuses by all potential parties whether they be human or programs.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted Yesterday 9:35 AM (GMT -6) | | I just got a chance to watch Matrix Reloaded again on DVD last night and I thought I'd provide a public service by transcribing Neo's dialogue with Oracle, since that has received significantly less attention than his dialogue with Arky and it is the contrast between the two dialogues that is most revealing about the previous movie. I also see hints that aspects of his dialogue with Oracle portended for his eventual sacrifice in Matrix Revolutions....
O:Well come on. I ain't gonna bite you.
Come around here and let me have a look at you.
My goodness, look at you. You turned out all right, didn't you?
How do you feel? (Neo takes off glasses)
N:I...(faces her)
O:I know you're not sleeping. We'll get to that.
Why don't you come and have a sit this time(moves bag to side).
N:Maybe I'll stand. (blink)
O: Well, suit yourself.
N:(Pause, Blink, turns and sits) I felt like sitting.
O: I know. (Neo faces her)
S...let's get the obvious stuff out of the way.
N:You're not human, are you?
O:It's tough to get more obvious than that.
N:If I had to guess, I'd say you're a program from the machine-world.
So is he. (turns to Seraph)
O:So far, so good. (Neo turns back to her)
N:But if that's true, that could mean you're part of this system...
another kind of control.
O:Keep going.
N:I suppose the most obvious question is...(faces oracle)..how can I trust you?
O:Bingo (points and turns)... . It is a pickle, no doubt about it.
Bad news is...there's no way you can really know if I'm here to help you or not. So it's really up to you. Just have to make up your own d-mn mind...to either accept what I'm going to tell you or reject it.
Candy? (offers)
N:(pause). Do you already know if I'll take it?
O:Wouldn't be much of an oracle if I didn't.
N:But if you already know, how can I make a choice?
O:Because you didn't come here to make the choice. You've already made it. You're here to try to understand why you made it.
(Neo takes candy) I thought you'd have figured that out by now!
N:Why are you here?
O:Same reason.... I love candy!
N:But why help us?
O:We're all here to do what we're all here to do.
I'm interested in one thing, Noe:the future.
And believe me, I know, the only way to get there is together.
N:Are there other programs like you?
O:Well, not like me, but... Look, see those birds?
At some point, a program was written to govern them.
A program was written to watch over the trees and the wind, the sunrise and the sunset. There are programs running all over the place. The ones doing their jobs, doing what they were meant to do, are invisible. You'd never even know they were here. But the other ones... Well, you hear about them all the time.
N:I've never heard of them.
O:Of course you have. Every time you've heard someone say they saw a ghost or an angel...every story you've ever heard about vampires, werewolves or alines...is the system assimilating some program...that's doing something they're not supposed to be doing.
N:Programs hacking programs. Why?
O:They have their reasons...But usually a program chooses exile when it faces deletion.
N:And why would a program be deleted?
O:Maybe it breaks down. Maybe a better program is created to replace it. Happens all the time. And when it does, a program can either choose to hide here...or return to the source.
N:The machine mainframe.
O:Yes. Where you must go. Where the path of the One ends.
You've seen it...in your dreams, haven't you? A door made of light? (Neo nods) So what happens when you go through the door?
N:(pause) I see Trinity..and something happens...something bad. She starts to fall, and then I wake up.
O:Do you see her die? N:No. O:You have the sight now, Neo.
You are looking at the world without time.
N:Then why can't I see what happens to her?
O:We can never see past the choices we don't understand.
N:Are you saying I have to choose whether Trinity lives or dies?
O: No, you've already made the choice. Now you have to understand it.
N:No! (shakes head) I can't do that, I won't.
O:Well you have to! N:Why? O:Because you're the One.
N:What if I can't? What if I fail?
O:Then Zion will fall. (Seraph puts hand on Oracle's shoulder.) Our time is up. Listen to me Neo.
You can save Zion.... If you reach the source, but to do that you need the Key-maker.
N:The Key-maker?
O:H disappeared. We didn't know what happened to him until now. He's being held prisoner by a dangerous program...One of the oldest of us. He is called the Merovingian.
(....)
Seems like very time we meet I got nothing but bad news. I'm sorry about that. I surely am. But for what it's worth...you've made a believer out of me.
A couple of comments. Oracle's statement that all the one's end is finally at the source, seems to maybe have double meaning. Neo, as part of his oneness, has to be willing to accept death in the end to save both programs and humans. Zion's fall depends on both his choosing the other door to try to save Trinity and his willingness to go on after her death and to accept certain death in facing the Smiths.
Here is a reposting of Neo and Arky's dialogue.
The Architect - Hello, Neo.
Neo - Who are you?
The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also irrelevant.
Neo - Why am I here?
The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.
Neo - You haven't answered my question.
The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.
*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Others? What others? How many? Answer me!"*
The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.
*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Five versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bullshit."*
Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows.
The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.
*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "You can't control me! F*ck you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me do anything!*
Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.
*The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architect's room*
The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.
Neo - The Oracle.
The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.
Neo - This is about Zion.
The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.
Neo - Bullshit.
*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Bullshit!"*
The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.
*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room.*
The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.
Neo - You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.
The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.
*The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors*
The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.
*Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neo's dream appear on the monitors*
Neo - Trinity.
The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.
Neo - No!
The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.
*Neo walks to the door on his left*
The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.
Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.
The Architect - We won't.
Now, for a brief segment of what Mervy said to Neo:
(After expressing how undertanding the Why is only our hope, the only truth.)Why is what separates us from them...you from me. "Why" is the only source of power. Without it, you are powerless. And this is how you came to me, without why, without power. Another link in the chain.
(This and Persephone's remark form the basis for why I think Mervy may have been the first, "the one". It also makes for an interesting contrast with Matrix Revolutions, since Mervy's failure to understand how Trinity would die to save Neo is what allowed her to save him from Mervy.)
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 11/14/2003 11:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Here is another person's initial interp. of MRel from this past May, with feedback evaluation.
"05-21-2003 @ 12:40 AM post located here
Kenny:
I loved the movie. I give it an A.
For those disappointed that the Christian imagery didn’t seem to carry through, you shouldn’t be. The imagery was never explicitly Christian to begin with. Geebob is right in noticing the Buddhist connotations, but the best fit, by far, is Gnosticism. The manner in which Christian imagery is employed in the Matrix is very close to the manner in which it was employed by the second century Gnostics. The problem with the world is not human moral evil. The problem with the world is, rather, that it is the creation of an evil power which has conspired to trap human souls (or “minds” in Matrix terminology) in a delusion. What is required to be liberated is not repentance but Gnosis (a secret knowledge only shared by a select few) – in this case, knowledge of what the Matrix actually is. As the Christ figure, Neo enters the Matrix to combat those who are holding the keys and blocking the doors that have locked people in ignorance.
The second movie amply confirms the Gnostic theme. In it, we meet the Architect. Of course, this is obviously the demiurge of Gnostic mythology, the evil god who created the material world (often identified with the god of the Old Testament in Gnostic mythology). The Oracle is Sophia or Wisdom. In Gnostic mythology, Sophia’s desire to know the One results in chaos in the original wholeness and eventuates in the birth of the demiurge (okay, so the parallel isn’t exact here, but we shouldn’t expect it to be – in any case, it is still close enough to be very suggestive) ultimately resulting in the creation of the material world (hence, we find that the Oracle is the “mother” of the Matrix). The implicit animism hinted at by the Oracle (personal programs control the birds, the wind, etc.) as well as the disorder and conflict among some of the programs (or gods) also fit the Gnostic scheme very well.
As for the prophecy, I think it’s true. The prophecy said that when the One returned to the Source, the war would be over. But Neo hasn’t done that yet. He only spoke with the Architect. The Source is beyond the Architect and Neo hasn’t been there yet. So the prophecy has not yet been falsified. In the next movie, Neo will go to the Source and it will be fulfilled. I suspect, like Geebob, that the humans and machines will then enter into some sort of harmonious symbiotic relationship after the One returns to the Source (and thus restores the harmony in the original wholeness just as Gnostic mythology predicts). ”
Right on!
“ As for the temple scene, perhaps I’m off here, but I was reminded of the Golden calf scene in The Ten Commandments (of course, that scene was far less explicit, but sexual license was implied by the narration and we saw depictions of “lewd” dancing). Of course, we know that after the Golden Calf, judgment follows. Perhaps the connection was deliberate. The people of Zion, at that point, were trusting in a false hope that they would be saved from destruction. If I’m right, that mitigates Geebob’s criticism of the scene. This is just speculation on my part though. ”
Wrong! I must admit that I was one of the confused ones who thought Zion had been destroyed the first time I saw the movie and this colored my interpretation here drastically. As it stands, this scene was not an indictment of the people at all but a celebration of human freedom. After talking with others about the dialogue, though, I realized that I was wrong about Zion being destroyed and wrong about my interpretation of the scene.
“ As for Agent Smith, I think he fits into the overall plan. Smith himself said he had to fulfill his purpose. And the rest of the plot implies, that though the various programs and humans may be at odds with one another, their interactions are all coordinated by a larger deterministic scheme. Smith may have rebelled against the System, but so did Neo and we now know that Neo’s rebellion was part of the plan all along. Plus, there was a hint that Smith’s presence played a role in assisting the destruction of Zion and so His exit from the Matrix actually helped serve the end of the System. ”
Wrong again! Again, my mistaken understanding of the ending confused my interpretation. I also had not seen the trailer for the next movie (left early because I didn’t know it was at the end of Reloaded). When I did see the trailer (much later), I figured out that Smith was the cataclysmic system failure that the Architect spoke of and I told that to my wife. I never posted it here though, so you’ll just have to take my word for it.
“ However, I don’t think the Architect has it all under wraps. I believe the Oracle was sincere when she said that she wanted to help the humans and the machines live in harmony. I believe that what she set in motion by helping the Architect construct the Matrix was part of a broader plan to defeat the Architect and to bring about this end all along. I believe she is a fundamentally good power, but she has to play within the rules of the System just like all the other programs. ”
Yep, I was right about that one!
“ But, we’ll see…
As far as the determinism goes, as a Calvinist, compatibilist and metaphysical determinist, I found the philosophical issues raised very interesting. But I wasn’t looking to this movie for any sort of vindication of my theology (or any other orthodox Christian theology). The underlying world view is Gnostic in orientation and (because of the first movie) I expected that going in. As it goes, I expect libertarian free will to somehow win the day in the last film. ”
And, of course, LFW did win the day – “Because I choose to.”
God Bless,
Kenny
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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