Open Theism Discussion Board

Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > (No Subject)

Forum Quick Jump

68 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3

[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/26/2003 10:29 AM (GMT -6)

This was written on the 23rd of May, posted elsewhere initially after I had seen MR twice and read much of what others had written about the movie(particularly remarks made by Cornel West).

I am of the opinion that the central point of the MR is best understood through its contrast with TM. In TM, Neo was discovered to be the messiah who would save humans from the Matrix and destroy the evil programs that enslaved humans. Now in MR, Neo has been rescuing people for some time. However, the end is far from clear, since Neo is just a man, more preoccupied with his love for Trinity than his messianic-status, outside of the Matrix and the Sentinels are about to destroy Zion.

My first impression about Zion was how it was not so different from the Matrix. It too has its control and survives based on an elaborate structure and sophisticated technology. This foreshadows the ending where Neo begins to operate "outside the matrix" in the way he can "within the matrix".

Neo's discussion with the Counselor pointed for me, not so much to the need for humans and machines to co-exist, it prepped me for Neo's meetings with Seraph and the Oracle and Agent Smith. The underlying idea here is that humans and machines are not intrinsically that different. The manicheistic struggle between the two is undermined, by the relevation that Oracle apparently has free-will. She has evolved beyond what her initial purpose was and is in conflict with the architect. Just as the Merovingian evolved into the debase unloving materialist he is. As Persephone pointed out, he was not always like that, he used to be more like Neo. The point is that, while we tend to think of programs as automatons, the beginning of the movie clears away this notion. It also hints at the fact that the Oracle is capable of influencing people, like Neo, and foreseeing/determining aspects of the future. These are all features of her agency, not indicators that all is predetermined. One could view the Oracle within the light of the African-American experience of Christianity. This religion was given them as a form of social control to keep them in their place, but they took it and transformed it into what gave them the strength to transform the Racist United States of America. So just because the One is meant to be a form of social-control, doesn't deny its actual liberating power.

It is my supposition that she gave Neo the dreams about Trinity dying so as to condition his choice that led to what door he would choose. The main choice was to love Trinity above and beyond anything else in the world. It was because of this choice, the Oracle spoke of him as having already chosen what he was going to do. Perhaps, the dreams of losing her was what made Neo realize how important she was to him. Perhaps, the failure of the others was determined by Oracle and the good programs as necessary so that Oracle would enter the matrix and put herself in the situation where she would be killed by the agent.

The blurring of the key distinction between humans and programs/machines is then further reemphasized by the Agent Smiths, who demonstrates his own ability to evolve by becoming more human and virus-like. Just as Neo is becoming more and more like a program with a further raising of consciousness regarding what is the Matrix, Smith is becoming more human. That and the Merovingian's lust for power, the rivalry between Smith and the other agents, people's ability to be transformed into agent's at will and Persephone's desire to feel the love that exists between Neo and Trinity all point to the same thing: Not only do we need each other, Humans and Programs are not that different from each other. The battle is not between Man and Machine, but Good and Evil. However, what exactly ought to be the relationship between humans and machines and in-betweens has yet to be determined. It needs to be worked out.

Which leads me to the Architect. The main theme of the Architect is that deterministic ontologies are instruments of control, the obverse of what the Merovingian said about free-will/choice. His harmonies of near mathematical precision stands in stark contrast to the evolving states of those programs within the matrix, whereby Oracle came to believe that Neo really is the One not predestined to the fate of his predecessors, and their conflict. The Architect did not program Neo's love for Trinity, as shown by his remarks concerning how Neo was different. That was freely chosen. However, since the Architect can read Neo's mind, it seems to me his remarks do not reflect a prescience, but rather him manipulating Neo into believing that all is going as he planned.

This reflects the notion that a belief in determinism, or that God is in Control, is a device for control. It implies that any attempt to change our fallen answers to the problems of order can be countered as challenging the authority of God, who is in control.

However, if what the Architect said is true regarding the consequences of Neo choosing the door he did, all humans hooked up to the matrix died. If that is the case then it seems unlikely that the Sentinels really did destroy everyone in Zion. If they did that then how will they grow more batteries for them to subsist on? So I think the ship that picked them up is commanded by humans controlled by the evil computers. The infected dude must have infected others, by cutting himself and sprinkling his blood on them. Zion has not been wiped out(I mean otherwise how would Cornel West be in the next movie?) that is just further manipulation meant to demoralize them so the Architect and co. can make the best of a bad situation.

So I think that D-Day was accomplished by Neo. He saved the lives of those in Zion and, without as much energy being generated within the program formerly known as the Matrix, now the programs will turn on each other. Chances are the Smiths will wipe out the other programs so to end the evil programs, Neo will only need to defeat the main Smith dude.

So while Neo, Trinity and Morpheus may not understand their current situation, things are a lot better than they seem.

That is my read of the movie based on seeing it twice(It just came out yesterday here in MX.) after having read the remarks of many others.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/26/2003 10:30 AM (GMT -6)

A quick additional thought on my interpretation of MR.

I made a big deal out of my theory that the Architect was using the notion of predetermination as a means of controlling and deluding Neo.

I feel that it is important to consider the contrast between Morpheus and the Architect. Both make strong references to predetermination. I am sure that the Architect knows his b.s. to not be true, Morpheus may actually believe what he said, but could you imagine Neo saying, "but yeah then why do bad things happen to good people? Was it predestined that we would treat the machines like chattel so they would rebel against us? And how about that great idea we had to use Nukes to knockout our ability to get access to the Sun? I mean, duh, we may have denied the machines power, but we also got screwed? Were these all predetermined and why; so people in some alternative dimension could enjoy some good movies? Fuck you Wachowski's, how many have had to die so you could tell your stories? Find someone else to be the one."

No, I think Morpheus was not implying that all is predetermined exhaustively. His remarks are best understood functionally, just as the Architects were. Morpheus was giving a pep-talk for the need for the humans to work together, put their lives at stake so Neo could obey the Oracle. A belief that one serves a purpose set out by something higher than oneself and that the end is secure is an effective way of mobilizing people to take actions that they otherwise would never do. This is probably why Reformed Christians were so successful at mobilizing themselves to make political changes in the past.

So an important point of MR is that the concept of predestination itself can be used for Good or for Evil. In either case, it does serve to manipulate others, though. This, of course, serves to confirm the reality of freedom and choice.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/26/2003 10:31 AM (GMT -6)

I also think there are additional ways the ending could be spun, keeping with my basic story. Perhaps, the others were telling the truth about most of the ships being destroyed and there being only one survivor left at Zion.

That does not imply that everyone in Zion was killed. Perhaps, they were taken hostage to be replanted into the Matrix since all the humans connected to the matrix had died. This is consistent with Neo's choice having saved Zion.

Then, maybe Neo, in his coma, is evolving to his next level of consciousness and the same is taking place for the Smith-possessed dude, who was given an "upgrade" by the sentinels for having helped keep the battle short and sweet.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/26/2003 10:31 AM (GMT -6)

GregBoyd:And DLW... I love your semi-plausible interpretation(s) and guesses at where its going... very interesting stuff. But I really think your wrong on the functional interpretation of predestination. Morpheus wasn't giving some pep talk dude. His whole cult is based on this Oracle-> Fate deal.

So much of how one understands Reloaded hangs upon whether or not, or to what extent, one believes the Architect was telling the truth at the end.
--- If he was, then the Oracle was simply a program that THOUGHT she was breaking free because she was programmed to think this -- as were the agents, the Keymaster, Persoph..whatever her name is, and everybody else in the Matrix game. Only the humans have true free will within the Matrix, and even they are largely jerked around (like Morpheus).
-- If he wasn't, then machines are evolving free will, the gap between humans and machines is closing, the Archtect is loosing control, and things aren't predestined, even within the Matrix.

We'll have to see... but my bet remains on option #1. I don't think the Architect acknowledges free will, because he's a machine. He thinks its a mere glitch in the system.

Doc

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/26/2003 10:32 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

What if Merovingian was the reincarnated of Cipher from Matrix #1? (What, carnas is latin for body, so it wouldn't be reINCARNATED... it would be reMATRICIZED).

No the Merovingian dude has been around for way too long. Bear in mind his statement that the only difference between him and Neo is that he knows the why. This makes perfect sense if as the first one, he had accepted the Architect's explanation of the why.

quote:

And DLW... I love your semi-plausible interpretation(s) and guesses at where its going... very interesting stuff.

We see but through a glass darkly. But the entire movie is filled with references to what I was saying. The duality of humans and machines is being broken down. It also explains why the W2 brothers got Cornel involved with the movie.

quote:

But I really think your wrong on the functional interpretation of predestination. Morpheus wasn't giving some pep talk dude. His whole cult is based on this Oracle-> Fate deal.

Well, I think that, with the different ways predestination comes up within the movie, the Wachowski Brothers had in mind the functional interpretation of predestination. Now let's say that Morpheus really did believe in the Oracle-Fate deal, the practical consequences of this belief were his willingness to risk his life/suffer(As he did in TM when he gave himself to save Neo) and ability to spur others to do the same as well as to celebrate in the face of their seemingly impending doom.

Others also appeal to fate. The young man that Neo had saved described him being on the Nebuchadnezzar as Fate. Functionally, at the sub-conscious level, he is manipulating Neo, Trinity and the others into accepting him as one of them. The Smith when the Smiths were piled up on top of Neo, told Neo it is inevitable, manipulating him into accepting assimilation. Persephone, after the kiss and telling Trinity how much she envies here, says that such things were not meant to last. She has been manipulated into accepting the Merovingian/Ex-The One's deconversion as inevitable/predetermined with all that that entails.

So I think the W2 brothers main points are, it is not a manicheistic struggle between humans and machines(the two are not that different from each other) and that, while Choice is essential(and what enables Neo to succeed where the others fail is not his superior fighting skills or ability to manipulate the Matrix, but his decision to love Trinity more than anything else), predestination is a critical way to manipulate others.

quote:

So much of how one understands Reloaded hangs upon whether or not, or to what extent, one believes the Architect was telling the truth at the end.
--- If he was, then the Oracle was simply a program that THOUGHT she was breaking free because she was programmed to think this -- as were the agents, the Keymaster, Persoph..whatever her name is, and everybody else in the Matrix game. Only the humans have true free will within the Matrix, and even they are largely jerked around (like Morpheus).
-- If he wasn't, then machines are evolving free will, the gap between humans and machines is closing, the Archtect is loosing control, and things aren't predestined, even within the Matrix.

You can't program someone to fall in love as deeply as Neo did for Trinity. It ain't true now, it can't be true in the future of the Matrix. This was Neo's fundamental choice that he had already made that the Oracle spoke of in their meeting. But, it enabled him to be manipulated by the Oracle/others into choosing the right door so as to try to save Trinity.

If Machines don't have free-will then why do they evolve(as in the Merovingian becoming the depraved program that apparently he wasn't always...) and if they aren't converging how do you explain the last scene with Neo and the Smith dude both in comas. As Neo becomes more and more like a program, Smith seems to be becoming more human. The distinction is blurring. Final Scenes can be taken as definitive about what the movie is about.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/26/2003 10:33 AM (GMT -6)

DLW:

quote:
If Machines don't have free-will then why do they evolve and if they aren't converging how do you explain the last scene with Neo and the Smith dude both in comas and both probably evolving to become more and more like programs. The distinction is blurring.

ELI:It could be too that the "Real world" Smith didn't enter a coma until the very moment Neo did. Smith said at one point that they were linked in some way. Now I agree that they're probably evolving, but I'm looking at it from a slightly different angle. The last thing Neo does before entering the coma was either the response of reflex or pure desperation. Either way, even his brain probably wasn't ready for what happened, or at least the strain it put on him. So now, he's gone into the coma, to "evolve" inasmuch as his brain is kinda coming up to speed with this new information (as I'm sure the rest of us had to do, following that scene). Now, since for all intensive purposes Neo is out of commission, Smith has gone down with him. Maybe Smith's existance is now more or less dependant upon Neo's. I guess that would make Smith's obsession with destroying Neo somewhat masochistic, ehehe but there too, I don't think Smith's goal is to kill him, he wants to infect him.

And yes, that's reading way too much into everything, but so many movies these days just outright suck that it's nice to have one we can play with a bit.

"...it is fools, they say, who learn by experience. But since they do at least learn, let a fool bring his experience into the common stock that wiser men may profit by it." -C.S. Lewis

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/26/2003 10:33 AM (GMT -6)

I believe Smith, being more human now, is driven by his purpose...to stop the one as well as the desire for more power, as shown by his assimilation of the other agent.

I like the idea that it was Neo going into a coma that put the Smith-dude in a coma. Although, it could be that when the Sentinels took Zion, they gave him an upgrade that put him in a coma and left him behind to destroy the humans that picked him up...

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/26/2003 11:33 AM (GMT -6)

As an example of how deterministic thinking/theology has been used for social/economic control in the past in the US.

I recommend checking out the following History of Economic Thought website and doing a search for "The American Apologists"

http://cepa.newschool.edu/het/

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/27/2003 6:54 AM (GMT -6)

I got some feedback on my interpretation from a friend and thought I'd post it here...

quote:
DLW: The underlying idea here is that humans and machines are not intrinsically that different. The manicheistic struggle between the two is undermined, by the revelation that Oracle apparently has free-will. She has evolved beyond what her initial
purpose was and is in conflict with the architect.

mbm: Does she have free will? What evidence of that did you find ...

quote:
Mbm:I understood the Architect's speech to mean that she was a computer
program and thus part of the system, not external to it, and thus bound
by its rules to reaffirm the system even while appearing to struggle
against it.

This just takes the view of programs as automatons. As I understand it, programs can learn. If the basic premise of the movie is that programs/machines were developed to the level where they became sentient then wouldn't this also include having some free-will? I.e., choosing to pursue other objectives besides what their original intention was...

This may seem far-fetched in real-life, but within the world of the Matrix Movies, it is no more far-fetched than having the computers conquer the humans and turn us into living batteries!

quote:
DW: These are all features of her agency, not indicators that all
is predetermined. One could view the Oracle within the light of the
African-American experience of Christianity. This religion was given
them as a form of social control to keep them in their place, but they took it
and transformed it into what gave them the strength to transform the
Racist United States of America.

mbm: This is an interesting comparison, but of course the problem with
the analogy is that Oracle is code, a series of 0's and 1's on a hard
drive somewhere, whereas African Americans are humans.

Well her initial purpose was to study the human experience. The fact she portrays herself as an african-american woman could reflect how she developed an affinity for their struggle. I mean weren't the machines themselves trying to overcome the tyranny of the humans over them? The parallels are there and this could furthermore explain why there is such a disproportionate presence of African-Americans in Zion.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/27/2003 8:45 AM (GMT -6)

DLW:Why did the Merovingian say her days were numbered. Why did Seraph have to take such extreme measures to make sure only the one could approach her? Why would she acknowledge that she was a program and that Neo had no sure way to know that he could trust her... Why would she tell him that he has made a believer out of her? Neo asks if there are other programs like her and she replies that apparently most programs are doing what they were created for. The ones causing trouble were those that rejected their programs or refused to accept when their time/usefulness had come to an end...

MBM: The purpose of a program such as the Oracle would be to simulate, as much as possible, a real human being, including a human being's free will and sense of mortality.

DLW2:As I understand it, the Oracle's original purpose was to study human history so as to help the programs control the humans. It was based on this research that she came up with the idea that humans needed to have the anomalie, a source of hope. Thus, becoming the mother of the Matrix. Now, while the anomalie was intended to make humans better batteries, Oracle speaks of the future, envisioning the possibility that humans and machines can live together without either side oppressing the other. In considering this possibility, she is going beyond her initial intention and is threatening the power the Merovingian and the Architect have.

MBM:Still, her finitude may simply be an acknowledgment that the Architect will delete her when her usefulness is over. How else do you get rid of a virus or corrupted program? The root user deletes it or runs an anti-virus program. Anyway, I don't think any of your comments here necessarily demonstrate that she has free will or that she has broken from the Matrix while still inside--indeed, a part of--the Matrix.

DLW2:One cannot definitely demonstrate that free-will exists for anyone, much less a program. My interpretation takes some of her statements literally and interprets what the Architect said as not literal, but attempts to deceive Neo into thinking all is going as planned so as to control Neo. To support my views, I list all of the different examples of how programs have adopted behaviors similar to humans and how just as Neo is becoming more program-like, Smith is becoming human(or virus)-like.

MBM:Her comment about rogue programs could be interpreted as meaning that like Neo and the rest of them, these programs think themselves in control of their destiny, when in fact how could they be?

DLW2:You are just restating your premise that programs cannot have free-wills...

MBM:The Merovingian exists solely at the whim of the Architect, who seems to acknowledge that such supposed rebellion has its usefulness. The Architect states emphatically that the Oracle has played her part six times already in anointing the One and then setting him on his course towards choosing his successor and beginning the cycle over again. Does that sound like someone with free will to you? The Oracle is a cog in the machine.

DLW2:Its only been 5 times already. One can have repetition, cyclical behavior of reality, and also change. The Architect also remarked on the ways that Neo was different from the past ones, particularly in his extreme emotional attachment to Trinity, which led him to try to save her even though it was inevitable she would die and saving her would mean all the humans connected to the matrix would die. The other "ones" apparently re-picked those humans that would restart Zion. Neo didn't, so we see that the machine has malfunctioned. It is my contention that Oracle gave Neo his dreams as a means of influencing him so he would choose the way he did...

DLW: This just takes the view of programs as automatons. As I
understand it, programs can learn. If the basic premise of the movie is that programs/machines were developed to the level where they became sentient then wouldn't this also include having some free-will. I.e., choosing to pursue other objectives besides what their original intention was...

MBM:They may give the semblance of free will, just as Neo has done through the first two movies. They may even believe they have free will, but they are still part of the matrix. Indeed, they are dependent upon it for whatever "life" they have. Like humans, they are created beings, which implies a Creator.

DLW2:The existence of a Creator does not imply the absence of free-will for machines or humans...

MBM:I guess the question is, how much control does
the Creator, be he the Architect or some as-yet unidentified character, still possess over the creations? I tend to think that since the Oracle and Merovingian live and breathe the Matrix, with no ability either to transcend their existence (exit the Matrix) or die in a human sense (which means moving on to another life after death), then they are not in control of their destiny. They are perpetual dwellers in Plato's cave, neither living nor dead, unable to impart real wisdom to seekers. Their wisdom is an illusion. Don't believe it.

DLW2:They can be deleted. I disagree that the programs existences are confined to within "the Matrix". Clearly, they could have corporeal forms like the sentinels in the "Outside the Matrix". Neo lived and breathed the Matrix, and yet he chose to exit it in TM. The rest is just repetition of your refusal to accept the W2 Brothers premise that machines/programs are not intrinsically that different from humans... The question is not whether this is true in "real life" but rather whether it is fundamental to understanding the Matrix Trilogy.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 5/27/2003 10:01 AM (GMT -6)

DLW-

I feel sorry for you having this discussion here with yourself. So I thought I'd join you to just offer my thoughts on Matrix Reloaded.

I think it's just a movie. Reloaded was a disappointment I thought. Nice themes (fate, freedom, foreknowledge, blah blah blah) but not developed consistently. I thought the lines that dealt with it were anecdotal. Looked to me like they didn't know where to go with the film so just showed up on the set and free-lanced it when the director said "Action!" I didn't see the Zion dancing-Neo/Trinity sex scene (left with my son to get some pop-corn for 4 to 5 minutes). But I heard one critic ask in response to it, "It made me wonder whether or not Zion was worth saving."

I think we here on this site could write a better script and come up with better ideas. Not ME! But Mephi could!

I'm going back for Revolutions, but certainly not to stretch my mind. I'm going 'cause the special effects were AWESOME baby!

When I wanna discuss philosophy, fate, and freedom...

...I COME HERE TO THIS SITE!

Forget being challenged intellectually by the Matrix trilogy. I don't think the Wizowski

brothers know much about the issues. They seem pretty confused to me.

But that's just my opinion.

Tom

Edited by - TGB on 05/27/2003 3:08:55 PM

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/27/2003 10:28 AM (GMT -6)

Well Tom, thankyou so much for your sympathies. I am not discussing the movie by myself, but would like to hear others thoughts on my interpretation. Of course, you chose not to deal with any particular aspect of what I thought the movie was about.

That is your choice. (My beliefs don't require that others believe the same!)

I think though that, given we know that there were two rather intelligent minds behind its creation, your interpretation falls flat.

I have other friends I went to see the movie with that left feeling it was a joke. But they, like you, didn't understand the movie.

The movie is ironic, Neo has fulfilled the prophecies and ensured that relations will never be the same between humans and machines/programs, but he doesn't understand it and so he thinks he has failed, just as we think the movie has failed to do anything more than showcase a bunch of decent special-effects.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

Edited by - DLW on 05/27/2003 3:29:09 PM

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/27/2003 10:36 AM (GMT -6)

I have no doubt that the W2 brothers knew people weren't going to get their second film and would think it was a failure or nothing more than a bunch of special effects(or WWF-style kungfu fighting).

That is probably why they wanted the third movie to come out so close to the second one, so people wouldn't lose interest.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 5/27/2003 10:41 AM (GMT -6)

Mr. Anderson...

HEY! What that...?

Never mind me, DLW.

I actually DID think about the movie as I watched it. I didn't have my head in the pop-corn bucket the whole time! So I was disappointed. It COULD HAVE (hey, a past tense counterfactual!) been a great movie. Getting off on the special effects actually makes more sense to me that getting off on a supposed "philosophy of the Matrix." That wasn't true with the first one, but this one?

Tom

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/27/2003 10:46 AM (GMT -6)

Well, maybe you'll just have to watch it again if your budget allows...

I plan on watching it with my 9-year-old sister when I am home in July and my plan is that when the sex/dance scenes begin, we are just going to look into each others eyes, instead.

For me, it was the inputs of having read so much of what others had written about it and then the intrigue of thinking that I saw something different that kept me up after I watched it the first time and made me see it again the next day.

The notion that machines had free-will and weren't that different from humans sort of triggered everything else for me...
dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

Edited by - DLW on 05/27/2003 3:50:56 PM

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/28/2003 4:46 AM (GMT -6)

GregBoyd(reposted from main Matrix link)

DLW: We see but through a glass darkly. But the entire movie is filled with references to what I was saying. The duality of humans and machines is being broken down. It also explains why the W2 brothers got Cornel involved with the movie.

Doc: I think you’re on the right track here. Perhaps Neo is going to save the world from the machine-human dichotomy and end up being the head of a new humanity, the incarnation of humanity in machine. It symbolized perhaps in the fact that in the first Matrix he acquired his nearly unlimited powers when he ENTERED the agent and blew him up. Now his identity IN the matrix is carrying over to his identity OUTSIDE the matrix. He IS the ONE.

DLW: let's say that Morpheus really did believe in the Oracle-Fate deal, the practical consequences of this belief were his willingness to risk his life/suffer(As he did in TM when he gave himself to save Neo) and ability to spur others to do the same as well as to celebrate in the face of their seemingly impending doom.

Doc: Yes, but (unless the Architect was bluffing) ALL of this played into his hands and was part of his scheming. The "function" of predestination is EVIL. FREEDOM, I believe, is the ultimate good in this movie, for it is the essence of humanity.

DLW: while Choice is essential(and what enables Neo to succeed where the others fail is not his superior fighting skills or ability to manipulate the Matrix, but his decision to love Trinity more than anything else), predestination is a critical way to manipulate others.

Doc: Yes, and its all in accordance with the master of fate within the matrix, the Architect. So its not "while Choice is essential… predestination is…" but "Precisely because Choice is essential… predestination can only be…"

DLW: You can't program someone to fall in love as deeply as Neo did for Trinity.

Doc: I think that the Architect, being machine, believes EVERYTHING can be programmed. Yet, he’s learning about humanity through his "One" loops of the matrix and is surprised to see Neo’s depth of love (as in the last scene when he remarks, "your’s is different, more particular").

Doc

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/28/2003 5:13 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

DLW: We see but through a glass darkly. But the entire movie is filled with references to what I was saying. The duality of humans and machines is being broken down. It also explains why the W2 brothers got Cornel involved with the movie.

Doc: I think you’re on the right track here. Perhaps Neo is going to save the world from the machine-human dichotomy and end up being the head of a new humanity, the incarnation of humanity in machine. It symbolized perhaps in the fact that in the first Matrix he acquired his nearly unlimited powers when he ENTERED the agent and blew him up. Now his identity IN the matrix is carrying over to his identity OUTSIDE the matrix. He IS the ONE.

He acquired his powers when he refused to die. He said no to the lie that the bullets he was shot with within the Matrix were real. At that point, he truly realized the Matrix was nothing more than a program that was subject to his manipulation.

quote:

DLW: let's say that Morpheus really did believe in the Oracle-Fate deal, the practical consequences of this belief were his willingness to risk his life/suffer(As he did in TM when he gave himself to save Neo) and ability to spur others to do the same as well as to celebrate in the face of their seemingly impending doom.

Doc: Yes, but (unless the Architect was bluffing) ALL of this played into his hands and was part of his scheming. The "function" of predestination is EVIL. FREEDOM, I believe, is the ultimate good in this movie, for it is the essence of humanity.

Manicheistic. Yes, Morpheus' beliefs could have played into Siggy's hands. Clearly, without Morpheus' beliefs Neo would never have been freed and would never have died and in doing so triumphed over the lie of the Matrix and becom THE ONE. So, while all of this could have been for naught if Neo had behaved as the other ones did, the same can be said for Neo's choice to choose differently. So the goodness or badness of Morpheus' beliefs are indeterminate. We will see how his beliefs change in the next movie. Maybe he will become an open theist

quote:

DLW: while Choice is essential(and what enables Neo to succeed where the others fail is not his superior fighting skills or ability to manipulate the Matrix, but his decision to love Trinity more than anything else), predestination is a critical way to manipulate others.

Doc: Yes, and its all in accordance with the master of fate within the matrix, the Architect. So its not "while Choice is essential… predestination is…" but "Precisely because Choice is essential… predestination can only be…"

No, its both, both at the same time! And I'm not really talking EDF predestination here, more just the process of mutual manipulation as we sort out what things can be changed and what things, for now, can't be changed. Both the concepts of Choice and Predestination can be subject to manipulation, or interfere with our mission here on earth.

quote:

DLW: You can't program someone to fall in love as deeply as Neo did for Trinity.

Doc: I think that the Architect, being machine, believes EVERYTHING can be programmed. Yet, he’s learning about humanity through his "One" loops of the matrix and is surprised to see Neo’s depth of love (as in the last scene when he remarks, "your’s is different, more particular").

Well, the Architect, being the one behind much of the manipulations, surely is aware of the conflicts between the different programs in the Matrix(How Smiths are usurping the power of other agents. The ways in which the Oracle & Co. are also manipulating Neo. ) So he would certainly be aware of Neo's own choices and seek to set up a contingency plan to handle them. He just underestimated the extent and depth of Neo's love for Trinity.

A whole lot of Arky's performance can be seen as pure manipulation, and a rather effective manipulation at that, since he did convince Neo he had failed and most of the viewers of the movie as well...

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/28/2003 5:58 AM (GMT -6)

Here is a post by a friend of mine Matt titled Religion in the Matrix

This is both a response to David and an attempt to answer to a question I asked yesterday about the absence of religion within the Matrix. It seems to me that in these films, the directors are trying to promote a kind of religious parallelism, or syncretism. That is, the underlying religious framework is syncretic, a combination of many religions. It's as if they took the New Age belief that all religions are essentially the same, or tend to move in the same direction, and laid down that belief as the cornerstone for their movie. There are problems with that belief that I don't need to go into here ... I'm sure as Christians you have all worked out your own arguments against such a belief. However, much as George Lucas was criticized for his mixture of gnosticism and
New Age-ism, I think the W. brothers are doing much the same thing, only better. For any Christian parallel you might cite, I can counterpoint that with a Buddhist parallel. Actually, I would tend to refute any suggestion that Neo is a Christ figure except in the most loose sense. There is very little that is Christian about this movie. Take just a couple examples: yes, Neo dies and is born again--twice, actually, if you count his exiting the Matrix as the first rebirth and his second death at the hands of Smith and resurrection by Trinity's kiss. I could make a point there about the Hindu belief in reincarnation (the Oracle even says in TM something to the effect that perhaps Neo will be the One in a next life), but I'll give you that Neo dies and is resurrected. Even so, his death and resurrection is not to save man from sin, but to bring knowledge to mankind, more of a gnostic explanation of Christ's death and resurrection than an orthodox Christian explanation. Further, though the resurrected Christ possessed new powers during the short span he walked among men, he did not use his powers to harm others. Neo, arguably, kills innocent people when he rampages through the green marble lobby of the building where Morpheus is being held prisoner. "Guns. I need lots of guns," he says to Tank. Does that sound like Christ to you? Incidentally, this violence also stands as a refutation of any attempt to equate Neo with the Buddha. Buddhism also rejectsharming others in any way. Both Buddha and Christ were disattached from physicality; Neo is firmly attached to human life through his love for Trinity. Buddha would say the love for Trinity is an attachment that must be given up if Neo is to achieve enlightenment; he couldn't do that and, if what the Architect says is true, he sacrificed thousands of innocent lives for the love of one woman. Not very Christ-like. Not very Buddha-like.

I could go on and on, but I don't think I have to. My point is simply you are building your argument on a house of cards if you try to turn this movie into Christian allegory. For that matter, you can't turn the movie into a Buddhist allegory either, and that isn't my object. The movie is a syncretic hodge podge of beliefs.

Matt

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/28/2003 6:01 AM (GMT -6)

For any Christian parallel you might cite, I can counterpoint
>that with a Buddhist parallel.

My basic overview of the movie is that, while the first one set up a manicheistic struggle between humans and machines with Neo responsible for setting people free from their enslavement as batteries and defeating the agents, the second one muddies the waters from the very beginning. Neo's clearcut purpose is inadequate for ensuring the long-run survival of humanity and not only are humans still dependent on machines, their hopes for survival rest in the Oracle, a program. Oracle's role is not nailed down in the movie. She could be just another instrument of the Colonel(That and Arky or even Siggy are my favorite pet names for the Architect.), or she could be a rebellious program trying to sway Neo to go against Arky's design and end the cycle of manipulation of humans as batteries.

>Even so, his death and resurrection is not to save man from sin, but to
>bring knowledge to mankind, more of a gnostic explanation of Christ's
>death and resurrection than an orthodox Christian explanation.

Well, gnosticism viewed Jesus as just a man and not one with God. I don't think that really matters. Its just a movie, clearly, there not going to have Neo morph into Jesus on the Cross with holes in his hands and feet. One can say that humans living only as batteries, lives without meaning other than to fuel the power of Arky and Co., are in a state of sin. It is other than God intended for us to live. So Neo does help humans, who are willing, to escape from sin. The biggest difference is that he does not act from or give authority to a Christian Church, which makes claims on how humans should then live their born-again lives.

Further,
>though the resurrected Christ possessed new powers during the short span
>he walked among men, he did not use his powers to harm others. Neo,
>arguably, kills innocent people when he rampages through the green
>marble lobby of the building where Morpheus is being held prisoner.
>"Guns. I need lots of guns," he says to Tank. Does that sound like
>Christ to you?

Well, it fits more with Christianity than Buddhism since we do accept that there is spiritual warfare/conflict going on in this world between God and Co. and Satan and Co.. The manifestation of this conflict within the Matrix is through martial arts and guns. The point again is that it is a movie and channels the concept of conflict through this manner. Clearly, the real battleground of the conflict in real life lies in human minds and hearts.

Incidentally, this violence also stands as a refutation
>of any attempt to equate Neo with the Buddha. Buddhism also rejects
>harming others in any way. Both Buddha and Christ were disattached from
>physicality; Neo is firmly attached to human life through his love for
>Trinity. Buddha would say the love for Trinity is an attachment that
>must be given up if Neo is to achieve enlightenment; he couldn't do that
>and, if what the Architect says is true, he sacrificed thousands of
>innocent lives for the love of one woman. Not very Christ-like. Not
>very Buddha-like.

So Neo's attachement to Trinity would be the definitive difference that makes this not a Buddhist movie. Yes, many human batteries were lost, but as is set up by the movie, those lives were lives not really being lived anyways. Their souls were being drained away. And, if I am right that choice is what will break the cycle of death with the ones being a recurring pattern that is ultimately just part of the system. The notion that real change is possible, that one can break out of the cycles of death, is a very Christian notion.

>
>I could go on and on, but I don't think I have to. My point is simply
>you are building your argument on a house of cards if you try to turn
>this movie into Christian allegory. For that matter, you can't turn the
>movie into a Buddhist allegory either, and that isn't my object. The
>movie is a syncretic hodge podge of beliefs.

But in its essential arguments, it is more Christian than Buddhist. The rest just requires some waving of hands.
dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/28/2003 6:27 AM (GMT -6)

Matt:But the choice Neo makes is for the love of a woman! If it can be called a choice--the whole film calls the issue of choosing into
>question, and we'll see how that plays out in the next film. Anyway,
>when Neo walks through that door and saves Trinity, it's like Christ
>deciding, "Hey, this is going to get bloody; I'd better get down from this cross before I die or something." Christ couldn't do that of course (where was his free will?), and arguably, Neo could not do
>otherwise either, but the difference between the choices (if they are choices) the two make cannot be glossed over.

DLW:Huh? Well Neo didn't choose to die again. I agree that Neo's primary choice was to love Trinity and that determined his choice in the source. Neo's supposed success stems from just how strong the bond is between him and Trinity. Doesn't that remind one of some theological concepts?

Matt:As for whether these
>human batteries are "worthless," as you say, what do you think Christ would say to that? Whether or not Neo's actions actually killed them--I doubt it, but November will tell for sure--at the moment he steps through the door to save Trinity, the idea that thousands of innocents might die is still a distinct possibility. Neo may be The One, but he is a man nonetheless, and again, in this respect he is more in accord with gnostic notions of the savior.

DLW:Well, let us hope that God gives a special dispensation for humans that have spent their entire lives as batteries

. They had their opportunity to leave the Matrix and go to Zion. This is like the end times. You have a choice up to a certain point and then the floor gets kicked out from under you and there is no more choice left...

Matt:I don't want to debate whether the movie is more Christian or Buddhist, so I won't even go there. It doesn't interest me. The movie is like a mirror in which people see their own reflection.

DLW:It would depend on what one identifies as the key themes in the movie. Breaking out of the cycle of death doesn't strike me as a buddhist theme, but then I could be wrong...
dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/28/2003 6:31 AM (GMT -6)

Matt:How can being a battery, unconscious of one's battery-hood, be sinful? It may be other than God intended us to live, but no one currently in the Matrix had any choice in the matter, did they? Unless you want to go back on your claim that they bear no responsibility for the way their predecessors treated the machines years and years ago.

TC:>Does anyone remember Kierkegaard?
One could make the argument that what Christianity calls us to is
>non-calculation and insofar as the status quo world is all about calculation (batteries and power), we must be different. Clearly being batteries supports the current order. Unless you think that Christianity is inherently conservative (which it clearly is not!), in a way it is anti-christian to not be radically opposed to an order of calculation and power.

DLW:Matt, we all are born into crap-filled situations that we had nothing to do with. That is why there is no irony in having a messiah who also was literally born into a crap-filled stable.

Matt:BUT THE BATTERIES HAD NO CHOICE IN THEIR BATTERY-HOOD! IT ISN'T SINFUL TO BE USED BY SOMEONE ELSE AGAINST YOUR WILL. IT'S CALLED BEING A VICTIM! VICTIM-HOOD ISN'T A FALLEN STATE, UNLESS YOU'RE A BIGOT WHO THINKS BECAUSE OF ORIGINAL SIN HUMANS DESERVE WHATEVER EVIL THEY HAVE COMING TO THEM.
>P.S. SORRY FOR THE CAPS; IT DOES NOT REFLECT MY MOOD! :-)

DLW:Yes, but as I say in the other email, all of the human batteries did have the opportunity/choice to exit the Matrix earlier and apparently were not interested...
dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/28/2003 7:07 AM (GMT -6)

Matt:As for equating the battery-hood of the humans to the state of sin into which we are born, I'll just say one more thing ... this is another of those cases where there is an alternate interpretation that conflicts with the Christian analogy. The fallen state of the batteries has to do with their ignorance, not some inherent sinfulness. This is a Platonic idea, a gnostic idea, a Buddhist idea, that humans live in ignorance until some savior teaches them truth. They are ignorant of their ignorance, even. This is the fundamental problem of the humans who live in the Matrix, not an alienation from God stemming from their sinfulness.

DLW:I think it revolves around what one means by sinfulness. Clearly God did not intend for us to live in ignorance and as is illustrated by the beginning of TM, there are two responses to the feeling that things are not right, to either search for Truth as Neo did, or to go out partying all night as the others did.
Indulgence of our sinful natures make us very easy to manipulate and puts on the shelf concerns about what is Truth.

So its not so clear-cut..., no Neo did not escape from the Matrix or say "No" to its pseudo-death because of his personal relationship with Jesus Christ, but I don't think the two are that mutually exclusive...

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/28/2003 7:08 AM (GMT -6)

Matt:Following is a link to an on-line chat/interview done with the
Wachowski's in 1999. I am going to quote a couple pertinent passages,
but you should really read the whole thing for yourself. Very
instructive.

http://www.warnervideo.com/matrixevents/wachowski.html

First quote:
"Enigma says: What is the role of faith in the movie? Faith in oneself
first and foremost - or in something else?
WachowskiBros: Hmmmm...that is a tough question! Faith in one's self,
how's that for an answer?"

Second quote:
"agunn3 says: Have you ever been told that the Matrix has Gnostic
overtones?
WachowskiBros: Do you consider that to be a good thing?"

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/28/2003 7:09 AM (GMT -6)

Matt:Here is just one of the conspiracy theories surrounding the Roman Catholic church, the Rosicrucians, the order of the Knights Templar, and the Merovingians.

http://watch.pair.com/priory.html

The Merovingian kings blasphemously claimed direct descent from Jesus
and Mary Magdalene. Apparently, there are those who believe the
Merovingian bloodline still runs, and that the ancestors of the
Merovingians--today part of a group called the Order of Sion--desire to reestablish themselves as kings in Jerusalem. The Vatican has a role in this, too, due to a top secret arrangement with Israel to take control of Jerusalem. This author, writing in the '90's, says that the deal would go through by the end of the Millennium. That date having passed,I guess perhaps the Pope's ill health has delayed the takeover of the Holy City.

I love this kind of stuff! It's fascinating what one learns on the
Internet.

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/28/2003 7:15 AM (GMT -6)

In response to the notion that the denizens of the Matrix had already had their opportunity to leave and not taken advantage of it...

Matt:
I don't know ... I'm willing to consider a lot of variant
interpretations, but this is a bit of a stretch for me. I'm going to
have to ponder this for awhile. Just off the cuff, it seems like it is based mostly on the inference that Neo has offered the choice of leaving the Matrix to every single person in the Matrix (excepting the ones he has killed, of course!). I am not yet sure I buy that.

DLW:He doesn't have to make the offer to literally everyone, just those who had prepared themselves for the question by their willingness to question what they had been told was reality...

Matt:And what about those he didn't make the offer to? If they die, as a result of his choosing Trinity, does that lessen or strengthen his nobility in your mind? Even the Catholic church has a special
dispensation for those savages who have never heard the gospel.

DLW:Well Neo, being Superman and what-not, would be able to tell from his exhaustive view of the Matrix who may accept the offer and who obviously never would.
Alternatively, let us hope for that special dispensation.
dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

Edited by - DLW on 05/28/2003 12:35:33 PM

68 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3

Forum Information

Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 3:26 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads

Need Support? | Forum Help Manual