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|  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 6/19/2003 5:22 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  Mayflower Registered Member
 Date Joined Mar 2002 Total Posts : 445 | Posted 6/19/2003 9:38 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  Laika Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003 Total Posts : 2433 | Posted 6/20/2003 2:00 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  Mayflower Registered Member
 Date Joined Mar 2002 Total Posts : 445 | Posted 6/21/2003 7:40 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  Mayflower Registered Member
 Date Joined Mar 2002 Total Posts : 445 | Posted 6/21/2003 7:42 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 6/23/2003 6:13 PM (GMT -6) |   | The marble lid of a sarcophagus, decorated in the style of a temple roof with theatre masks as antefixes, bears a Greek inscription to a certain Faustina, accompanied by a series of Jewish symbols and the word "shalom" in Hebrew on the central tabellum of the lid. A Christian epitaph in Latin from the beginning of the third century opens with an invocation to the Dis Manibus (guardians of the grave). There is a break in the inscription, however, for the inclusion of two fish beside an anchor and the Greek phrase IXOUS ZWTWN (Fish of the living). This is one of the earliest examples of Christian symbolism on a funerary monument. The piece was discovered close to the site of the Vatican necropolis beneath St. Peter's Church and formerly belonged to the Kircherian collection.
 eucharistic fish
The fish was an important symbol for the early church, perhaps serving as a secret sign to identify believers in times of persecution. The Greek word for fish--ichthus--served as an acrostic for a confession of faith--Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior.
This photograph shows an inscription that can be seen today in the catacomb of Domitilla in Rome. It is the epitaph for one named Antonia. Notice the presence of another important early church symbol--the anchor--located between the two fish.
Edited by - fred on 06/23/2003 11:14:09 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Eli Registered Member
 Date Joined May 2003 Total Posts : 44 | Posted 6/25/2003 3:58 PM (GMT -6) |   | I was told the pentagram was more widely used than the cross as a church symbol until the times of the inquisition. The cross being a symbol for suffering, was believed to be a more appropriate symbol than the pentagram (the symbol for truth). It wasn't until the 19th? century that the pentagram was adopted into witchcraft and became more widely viewed as a satanic symbol. I believe the earliest record is a painting depicting some evil god with a pentagram as a backdrop.
This was a question btw. If it's not true let me know so I stop telling people it is .
"...it is fools, they say, who learn by experience. But since they do at least learn, let a fool bring his experience into the common stock that wiser men may profit by it." -C.S. Lewis
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 6/25/2003 4:52 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote: Eli
I was told the pentagram was more widely used than the cross as a church symbol until the times of the inquisition. The cross being a symbol for suffering, was believed to be a more appropriate symbol than the pentagram (the symbol for truth). It wasn't until the 19th? century that the pentagram was adopted into witchcraft and became more widely viewed as a satanic symbol. I believe the earliest record is a painting depicting some evil god with a pentagram as a backdrop.
This was a question btw. If it's not true let me know so I stop telling people it is .
INTERESTING, ELI!
I DID SOME CHECKING, AND HERE'S WHAT I FOUND.
1. The PENTACLE/PENTAGRAM that Alva Steffler (retired Wheaton College prof. and friend) put in his book "Symbols of the Christian Faith" is one that has one line overlapping the next. (Maybe that's what a "pentacle" is.) He says that it is "associated with the five wounds of Christ." His text also mentions that it is a "sign to ward off evil spirits...carved on door frames, thresholds and gates. (That part is a 'turn off' for me.) He mentions that the star ("Day Star") is a symbol of the divine guidance from the account of the Magi.
2. The Cross, we should remember -- whether my looking in books or web shows it used as an image early or not -- PLAYS VERY PROMINANTLY IN SCRIPTURE! CHRIST HIMSELF SAID "TAKE UP YOUR CROSS AND FOLLOW ME." HOW MUCH MORE DO WE NEED?
According to Steffler, about the fifth century the Cross began to overtake the Chi Rho (Initials for [i/]Christ Jesus) as the dominant image of Christianity.
But before that you had Constantine's adoption of the Cross as a symbol.
I seem to recall that the Cross was too much of a reality of suffering early on.
quote: The Cross Wasn’t Originally A Christian Symbol
We have grown so used to the idea that the crucifixion, the cross, is the supreme symbol of Christianity that it is a shock to realize how late in the history of Christian art it is recognized. In the first art of Christianity it hardly appears; and the earliest example, on the doors of Santa Sabina (built AD430) in Rome, is stuck away in a corner almost out of sight...early Christian art is concerned with the miracles, healings, and with hopeful aspects of the faith like the Ascension, second coming and the resurrection.
Kenneth Clark, Civilization: A Personal View (New York: Harper & Row, 1969) p. 29 http://www.bbie.org/english/resources/gospel_news/1504/gn05.html
But assuredly it was a literary symbol of the martyrdom that was considered a CROWN!
And the CROSS has a history of its own too. Here we go:
quote: Icons of the empty Cross symbolise Christ's Resurrection. The Cross is often portrayed as the tree of life with burgeoning leaves or flowers

Edited by - fred on 06/25/2003 9:53:38 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 6/25/2003 5:26 PM (GMT -6) |   | That's an interesting topic Eli raised: WHERE DO IMAGES COME FROM? HOW DO WE GET THEM? DO THEY CHANGE MEANING?
May I present a few that were borrowed?
One image that Christians borrowed from the pagan world was that of the "Calf Bearer." The Calf Bearer carried his live stock to market. He did a good job; but in the end the calf lost his life--to market prices or to sacrifice...either way not good news to the calf.
Enter the "Good Shepherd."

This is perhaps from a catacomb. It might, then, be a Good Shepherd in the sense of symbolizing Christ. My first impression was that it was not; but I could be wrong.
This BIGGER picture, a carving on the side of a funerary sarcophagus (coffin) actually, is probably a "picture" of Christ -- a symbolizing of the reality of Christ our Shepherd who does not loose His sheep, and comes looking for the one lost to save it. Interestingly, the carver may not be a Christian, even if his customer probably was. But the images used were not necessarily always ones that 'began' as Christian. (I can't imagine a "Calf Bearer on a sarcophagus.) Some images and even their meanings were adapted ('baptized') into Christian service.

Here's one such: the peacock, which is a symbol of eternal life. THAT symbolic connection, seems to me, comes from the culture. But like the Masai Creed ("He lay burried in the grave, but the hyenas did not touch him, and on the third day he rose froim the grave..." -- You get the idea!!!)

Did you notice the peacocks down below, facing each other?
Edited by - fred on 06/25/2003 10:33:41 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 6/25/2003 5:43 PM (GMT -6) |   | Here is another view of a catacomb:

But what is up above a room very similar to that is very interesting!

WHAT DO YOU SEE?
Do you notice the Good Shepherd in the center circle. In Byzantine Churches that is where Christ the "Pantocrator" (Ruler of All, or Ruler in the Land of the Living--holding a bood) is placed. Here the guarantor of resurrection live is shown in that place, ruling over all.
Here is another view:

Notice the woman with arms and hands upraised in WORSHIP? That's called an "Orands."

The covering over her head also signifies worship. This gesture, embracing all and offering all back to God is a formative on in the development of the Christian idea of worship.
And here is a mother and Child.

ANYONE GOT ANY MORE?>?>? | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 6/28/2003 11:32 AM (GMT -6) |   | WHAT KIND OF IMAGES DID THE JEWISH CHURCH USE?
I think the idea that Jews shunned images is over-exagerated. Even the OT had images -- as Francis Schaeffer pointed out in Art and The Bible. And the Synagogue had images. (See illustration below)
 Tabernacle Dura Europus (in Turkey) Tempera on plaster
That's religious art in a Synagogue!
And the local Christian Church, also in Dura-Europus (a very large house-church) had THIS setting as its Baptistry!
 Baptistry with frescoes Dura Europus (in Turkey), 245-256 AD Tempera on plaster
But back to the Synagogue at Dura-Europus
 Wall fresco from ancient synagogue at Dura-Europus: "Infancy of Moses" (Exod. 2). On display in Yale University's History of Art Department.
AND ONE MORE CHRISTIAN IMAGE:
Funerary meal Catacomb of Priscilla Second to fourth centuries Rome
 COULD THAT TRADITIONAL "FUNERARY MEAL" ALSO BE INTERPRETED AS A "LAST SUPPER?" WITHIN THAT CULTURE???
Here's the LINK this last one came from: www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/Art_History/AHIS220g/module/christian/thumb.html
That LINK also has larger versions of these:

Edited by - fred on 06/28/2003 4:40:54 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Blood Washed Heretic Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2003 Total Posts : 167 | Posted 7/18/2003 4:27 AM (GMT -6) |   | Just a couple of observations/comments:
The Chi Ro symbol actually represents the first two letters of the word Christ, as "Jesus" in Greek begins with an iota (I). So it's not His initials being represented...
On a lighter note, a good friend of mine had this to say about the imagery of the cross: "I think that when Jesus comes back, the last thing He's gonna want to see is a cross."
It was funny, and we laughed, but I wonder if there isn't some truth to that.
In essentials, unity; In matters of opinion, liberty; In all things, love. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  fencesitter Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2003 Total Posts : 19 | Posted 7/18/2003 5:27 PM (GMT -6) |   | Mr. B. W. H.
So, then. Is "Chi Ro" Latin, or something. What is it? | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 7/19/2003 4:22 PM (GMT -6) |   | 
The Crucifixion
quote: From the Matins service (sung after Resurrection Gospel)
Having beheld the Resurrection of Christ, let us bow down before the Holy Lord Jesus, the only sinless One. Thy Cross do we adore, O Christ, and thy holy Resurrection we praise and glorify: for thou art our God, and we know none other beside Thee; we call upon thy Name.
O come, all ye faithful, let us adore Christ's holy Resurrection. For lo, through the Cross is joy come into all the world. Ever blessing the Lord, let us sing his Resurrection: for in that He endured the Cross He hath destroyed Death by death.
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 07/19/2003 9:23:17 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Magneton Registered Member
 Date Joined Aug 2001 Total Posts : 132 | Posted 7/19/2003 4:40 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote: On a lighter note, a good friend of mine had this to say about the imagery of the cross: "I think that when Jesus comes back, the last thing He's gonna want to see is a cross."
I think there’s some truth in your friend’s comment. One of my least-favorite hymns is The Old Rugged Cross: “… And I love that old cross … So I’ll cherish the old rugged cross …” I can’t see a good reason for affection for the instrument of torture and death of my Lord. It is Christ that I cherish, not the tool used against him. On the other hand, the cross has rightly been described as the most powerful symbol for all of humankind. While it takes us to the most horrific event in history, it reminds us of the most wonderful possibility for each of us.
Magneton
Let your religion be less of a theory and more of a love affair. Gilbert K. Chesterton
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 7/21/2003 3:46 PM (GMT -6) |   |

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 07/21/2003 8:46:53 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Blood Washed Heretic Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2003 Total Posts : 167 | Posted 7/21/2003 7:15 PM (GMT -6) |   | CHI RO is Greek, fencesitter.
It's the first two letters of "Christos", meaning Messiah or Anointed One. It's the root of the English "Christ".
In essentials, unity; In matters of opinion, liberty; In all things, love. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  fencesitter Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2003 Total Posts : 19 | Posted 7/21/2003 7:43 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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