quote:

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1. Something we are aware of: death, destruction, pain, etc.

2. Irritating Doubt: God's involvement

3. Habit 1: Form and hold belief that there is a LARGE amount of AMBIGUITY of situations in all situations, in which one can only receive certainty by divine revelation.

which leads to...

4. Habit 2: FOR ALL SITUATIONS where #1 obtain, seek God continually for leadership while operating in default mode (ie. fighting evil).

This, I believe, is the scenario for Meph, Brandon, Brett, and Electra.

---

quote:

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Meph, you're smokin', kid. Love it.

Brett

---

Hey, if I was in court? The Meph Man would be my lawyer....opps, sorry Brett.



Brandon
"Sharing a prison cell unites you much more powerfully than sharing a conference table."--Ecumenical Jihad: Ecumenism and the Culture War

Edited by - BBBCanada on 09/20/2002 11:27:07 AM

quote:

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Here's another one...

1. Something we are aware of: death, destruction, pain, etc.

2. Irritating Doubt: God's involvement

3. Habit 1: Form and hold belief that there is a LARGE amount of AMBIGUITY of situations in all situations, in which one can only receive certainty by divine revelation.

which leads to...

4. Habit 2: FOR ALL SITUATIONS where #1 obtain, seek God continually for leadership while operating in default mode (ie. fighting evil).

This, I believe, is the scenario for Meph, Brandon, Brett, and Electra.

---

quote:

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It's like with Elijah, just after he has had the run in with the prophets of Baal. He prays 7 times for rain, and after each time tells his servant to go and check for rain. And it's only after the 7th time that a tiny cloud is seen. What would have happened if he had given up after the 6th time?

---

quote:

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1. Something we are aware of: death, destruction, pain, etc.

2. Irritating Doubt: God's involvement

From here, it's easy to see what we are wanting: We want a habit that will HELP US to discern God's involvement in particular situations or at least lessen the ANXIETY about doing such.


3. Habit 1: Form and hold belief that certain situations (by whatever criteria) are DEFINITELY NOT GOD.

which leads to...

4. Habit 2: FOR THOSE SITUATIONS NOTED IN HABIT 1, fight it unambiguously.

This, I believe is the scenario for Tom, Semeia, Iconoclast, and Doc.

---

quote:

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My question now is this: How do we know when to give up? How do we know when to let go of a petition or prayer? Is it a matter of discernment? I recently saw a movie of a man who died last fall and was dead for THREE days. His wife had heard a word from God that her husband would not die. She, along with her church..., prayed and prayed and prayed. They even brought his dead body to a prayer meeting and prayed over it after the man had been dead for three days. Guess what, the man came back to life!!!!!!

---

I think that I know which movie that you are talking about. A homie of mine has it. The African pastor, right? (I think the movie was produced by Bro. Reinhart Bonnke's ministry) Got the death certificate and everything. As I recall, the story is that he had even been EMBALMED and still smelled of formaldehyde when he was raised. Quite interesting!

The question is a very important one. Persistence in prayer is often a crucial variable, to be sure. I would definitely say that it comes down to a matter of discernment and being open to God. I think this is important because, if we are not careful, we could end up whipping ourselves with the "If only I'd prayed a BIT more" thought. Now, granted, it is very possible that our lack of persistence can be to blame for our not receiving, but GREAT CARE must be taken in coming to this conclusion.

Two examples. Think of the story that Tom shared on the thread about the little girl who was supposedly to be raised from the dead. They obviously believed that they too had received a word from God...and ended up having to bury her. I've no doubt in my mind about the faith of that family and ALL the people that prayed for her (including Tom and his family) Would it be ok for them to keep second-guessing their faith and dedication in prayer? To, implicitly, believe that it was THEIR fault for not hanging on a bit more? Next, a person that I know very well lost a newborn son in childbirth. He and his wife didn't shed ONE TEAR but immediately believed that God had the power to bring him back. While the rest of the family already began mourning, they closed themselves in the the dead child's body, praying and believing. They did this until the hospital could not let them do so anymore. His child was buried. Would it do for him to believe that one more day, one more hour, one more MINUTE would have made the difference?

I think we can both tell miracle stories of the dead raised to life and terminal cancers dried up despite impossible odds. We can also probably both tell stories of painful loss amid INCREDIBLE faith and "words of knowledge" about imminent healing. But at the end of the day, we just don't know. So what do we do?

I suggest utter reliance on God. Personally, I will tell God in a minute about my faith and ask God to grant me the GIFT of faith. I'll be like that one dude Jesus talked to: "Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief!"

It starts, proceeds, and ends with hearing God and discerning by the Spirit. Has God given any words or indications that healing or revival will take place? Has any specific instructions been given? Have we asked God for wisdom and faith throughout the incident? Have we opened ourselves up to God to listen for a "release" of some type that may signal to us when to stop or keep going? If we have not received, do we believe that God 1) was working and is still working for the best and that 2) God ACCEPTED and VALIDATED that faith that we did demonstrate by our praying?

Again, it starts and ends with God, NOT with any particular manifestation necessarily. This is NOT saying that we are not looking for one with expectation. We humbly can and should do that. It's saying that our faith is NOT built upon receiving what we expect, but on who we know God to be. My favorite statement of faith will always be with the 3 Hebrew boys...

Daniel 3:16-18
Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king. But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up."

In other words, we can be QUITE aware of God's great ability, but our allegiance to and faith in God is NOT predicated on whether we get what we are asking for. Amid all the ambiguity, we know in whom we have believed.

In summary, how we know when to give up is an uncertain junket into being Spirit-led and wisely discerning. It may be frustrating at times...and quite ambiguous. But that's when we have to keep the sure things in mind: God's love and God's ultimate victory (as others have stated earlier)

Hope this helps ya, Brandi

*****************************


Brandi:

quote:

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I HONESTLY don't mean (AT ALL) for this to sound like a put down, criticism, or ANYTHING like that but wouldn't the need to say that "certain situations (by whatever criteria) are DEFINITELY NOT from God" actually be operating out of the knowledge of good and evil? Being that we are finite, limited humans is it not fitting that we just settle on the fact that there is a LARGE amount of AMBIGUITY of situations in all situations that we can only understand if God divinely reveals them to us?

---

I'm with ya here, B. But, to give equal time, I think that the people of Scenario 1 are using the image of Jesus in a "What Would Jesus Do?" type format. The logic is this (which Doc has said more or less):

Jesus Christ is the express representation of who God is. If we can look at an event and have SERIOUS doubts about Jesus doing or sanctioning it, then we have reason to say that God didn't do it.

I can empathize with the sentiment, but I find it too simplistic. Basically what this does is attempts to translate Jesus' "imaging" of God via his healing and deliverance ministry into EXACTLY how divine providence is supposed to operate. Jesus was unambiguously against "evil" and didn't use it at all, so God's activity in divine providence MUST be such, as well. That won't do. Why? Because there are TONS more factors in divine providence than in what we SAW of Jesus's healing ministry. The exorcism of demons and healing of diseases is quite distinct from responding to, orchestrating within, and leading forward ALL CREATION...with it's myriad wills and powers. Surely, we see this!


Moreover,

In a STRONG way, we DO see God's heart and intentionality via Jesus. Do you remember how Jesus wept over Jerusalem? Do you remember how he wept in the Lazarus situation? Can you conceive the anguish of the Son (and probably the FATHER) as seen in Gethsemane? Can we not easily assume that in WHATEVER evil God has to put up with in carrying out God's purposes, he's NOT happy about it, but saddened? Can we not EASILY see how God is willing to use NECESSARY macabre evil to accomplish his greater good goals...in using the ABUSE and CRUCIFIXION of the Son to facilitate the "greater good" of true freedom, life, and love? I don't see how we can't.

So, this is just to say that I do believe that the Scenario 1 people do have good intentions and are not acting out of intended "epistemological hubris" [Meph winks at Doc ] or anything like that. I think that they may be taking the thought of "What Would Jesus Do?" to a excessive extreme and that in the WRONG arena. But hey, we all make mistakes. And none of us has the all the answers.

But some are "righter" than others, right, Doc?

Good stuff, Brandi!

Mad love,


Edited by - Mephi2K on 09/21/2002 07:39:11 AM

quote:

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How would you relate the TSE to these Habits? As I see it, the TSE would only come into play, BOTH: if we receive revelation from God that eliminates ambiguity; AND: if this revelation requires something of us that is contrary to our default mode. Those are two very big ifs.

---

Good show on your take, Electra. That's exactly right. I especially like the way that the implications flow. This shows that divine revelation on an evil situation NEED NOT be contrary to the default mode, but can merely be disclosure of a distinct way of employing the default mode. Sweet stuff! And you're very right about the "two big ifs"

Keep it movin,


Edited by - Mephi2K on 09/21/2002 07:45:51 AM

quote:

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How would you relate the TSE to these Habits? As I see it, the TSE would only come into play, BOTH: if we receive revelation from God that eliminates ambiguity; AND: if this revelation requires something of us that is contrary to our default mode. Those are two very big ifs.

---

quote:

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I especially like the way that the implications flow. This shows that divine revelation on an evil situation NEED NOT be contrary to the default mode, but can merely be disclosure of a distinct way of employing the default mode. Sweet stuff! And you're very right about the "two big ifs"

---

quote:

---

I think that I know which movie that you are talking about. A homie of mine has it. The African pastor, right? (I think the movie was produced by Bro. Reinhart Bonnke's ministry) Got the death certificate and everything. As I recall, the story is that he had even been EMBALMED and still smelled of formaldehyde when he was raised. Quite interesting!

---

Yes, that is the same story. It is quite interesting and for me a little unbelievable (although I have no reason not to believe it is true...)


Mephi

quote:

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Think of the story that Tom shared on the thread about the little girl who was supposedly to be raised from the dead. They obviously believed that they too had received a word from God...and ended up having to bury her. I've no doubt in my mind about the faith of that family and ALL the people that prayed for her (including Tom and his family) Would it be ok for them to keep second-guessing their faith and dedication in prayer?

---

quote:

---

They did this until the hospital could not let them do so anymore. His child was buried. Would it do for him to believe that one more day, one more hour, one more MINUTE would have made the difference?

---

I was a little bit worried about bringing this topic up due to these types of emotional and uncertain situations -- It would be SO difficult to let go of life in either of these situations

A few years ago when we had been praying for someone with terminal cancer God told me that He can and does perform miracles BUT people also do die. The type of miracle that the man in Africa experienced is VERY rare. Ultimately the place both of these precious little ones ended up is far better than life here and that is the promise that we can cling to.


Mephi

quote:

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Again, it starts and ends with God, NOT with any particular manifestation necessarily... It's saying that our faith is NOT built upon receiving what we expect, but on who we know God to be. My favorite statement of faith will always be with the 3 Hebrew boys...Daniel 3:16-18
Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king. But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up."

---

I was thinking out loud when I wrote that post. I was a bit worried about posting my thoughts because I DIDN'T want to sound like I am judging but basically posted because I cannot understand the limits Scenario 1 people put on God. I am a bit perplexed with the need to say that if an event does not look like "how Jesus would have acted" ... then basically God did NOT do it. Like you, Mephi, I can understand how they would WANT to say this to make sense of evil yet in my logic I know that WE ARE NOT GOD hence we will NEVER be able to say that with certainty if it doesn't fit a certain criteria then God did NOT do it.

The post Iconoclast wrote about the various stages in which God interacted with the sin of people throughout the history ... made SO MUCH SENSE yet I do NOT feel comfortable saying that there is a certain way God will act or react to the evil in the world today. I guess my simple faith tells me that basically we were created to worship God even if "He does not save us" just as with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. God can do or act in ANY way even when it goes against the laws of nature (like raising a dead man from the dead) or when it goes against freewill agents. I honestly cannot understand how we can say anything different than this.


This thread has been very helpful to me. I feel like I've grown in my faith ... Thanks to all who have shared and replied to my questions! Sometimes I wish we could ALL agree on topics.
~Brandi~

quote:

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Tom: Why praise and honor God if God is sometimes the source of evil? If God is sometimes the source of evil, what would then be the difference between praising and honoring God and praising and honoring the devil?

---

quote:

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quote:

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Tom: Why praise and honor God if God is sometimes the source of evil? If God is sometimes the source of evil, what would then be the difference between praising and honoring God and praising and honoring the devil?

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Because God sees all? We can't see the forest for the trees? God has a panoramic view and he sees where he wants to bring his Creation?

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I don't think I have a whole lot to add to what I've already said. I'm coming up short on intelligence here! But it seems to me then that Satan could be worshipped for being the source of evil if he was just smarter and saw more? You wouldn't agree. You're suggestng that it's "where God's taking creation" that makes God's being a source of evil a praiseworthy thing. Sorry, I'm not buying this camel.

quote:

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OK. But just remember Greg uses the seat belt analogy in the same way that the Meph Man is. And your quote above where the highlighted part is, is exactly what Meph is trying to say. Prayer is one variable among others that opens up routes in the journey that otherwise would not be open.

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Then dump the "seat belt" analogy. It doesn't work. Seat belts don't open up routes in the journey.

Tom

"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde

quote:

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...it seems to me then that Satan could be worshipped for being the source of evil if he was just smarter and saw more?

---

quote:

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Why praise and honor God if God is sometimes the source of evil? If God is sometimes the source of evil, what would then be the difference between praising and honoring God and praising and honoring the devil?

---

The HUGE difference between God and Satan with regard to evil is that God is about "bringing us life and bringing it more abundantly," while Satan is about "robbing, stealing, and destroying." What I am trying to say about praising God is that our admiration and praise toward Him should not be easily swayed or determined on what is happening in our lives. Whether we "have much or little" should NOT be the determining factor on our worship toward God. I believe this is what Paul was getting at when he said he had learned to be content with much or little.... I believe that when we praise God, Satan loses his power, and God gets the victory! I believe this is partly why the heavenly hosts are in heaven worshipping the Lamb day and night, not to mention that God is worthy to receive ALL GLORY AND HONOR AND PRAISE!

David praised God even when he walked through the valleys. I know that I have personally felt the closest to God when going through the rough and lonely terrain because it has been during these times that the only source I could cling to was the truth found in God's Word. The truth that God loved me regardless of what the temporary exterior of my life looked like. Whether the rough waters were caused by God's loving discipline for me or Satan's ugly destructive intention, the TRUTH found in the Word was that God was the same God who PASSIONATELY loved and wanted to give me (all of us) LIFE! That's the difference as I see it.

Tom, thank you for giving me that book recommendation! It sounds very interesting. I WILL be reading it because this topic has me very interested!

BTW, I wonder if how you're thinking about Mephi's seat belt analogy is determined on your mindset about wearing a seat belt? I believe that I interpreted the analogy different from you. I took from this analogy that we wear a seat belt because it may make a difference on whether we will live or die IF we end up in a car wreck. When compared with the urgency to pray I interpreted it to be that we pray as if our prayer WILL make a difference on whether God or Satan will triumph in the event of a "car wreck" in our daily life. They both are there as protective devices. Perhaps you are viewing prayer as a constant while wearing a seat belt only appling when we are driving (a contingent thing?) I see the analogy as comparing our life with driving a car. I see the urgency of prayer in our life as being the same as needing to wear a seat belt to protect us. As we travel along in our life's journey we keep the seat belt of prayer on as protection.


Thank you for your input!
~Brandi~

quote:

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quote:

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...it seems to me then that Satan could be worshipped for being the source of evil if he was just smarter and saw more?

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Huh?

Loose your faith?

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quote:

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The HUGE difference between God and Satan with regard to evil is that God is about "bringing us life and bringing it more abundantly," while Satan is about "robbing, stealing, and destroying."

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Yes, but how do you know this if you also believe God to sometimes be the source of evil? I agree that God "brings us life and life more abundantly." But I wouldn't know "how" to believe this if I also believed God was sometimes the source of evil.

quote:

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What I am trying to say about praising God is that our admiration and praise toward Him should not be easily swayed or determined on what is happening in our lives.

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Why not? If God is the source of evil, why not be swayed? I think we're not swayed when life is full of evil because we know God's not the source of the evil. God's at work to bring good out of the evil around us (which is impossible if God is the source OF the evil). I could be all wrong about evil, Brandi. But this is how I see it so far.

quote:

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Whether we "have much or little" should NOT be the determining factor on our worship toward God. I believe this is what Paul was getting at when he said he had learned to be content with much or little.... I believe that when we praise God, Satan loses his power, and God gets the victory! I believe this is partly why the heavenly hosts are in heaven worshipping the Lamb day and night, not to mention that God is worthy to receive ALL GLORY AND HONOR AND PRAISE!

---

Now you got me singing girl!

quote:

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Whether the rough waters were caused by God's loving discipline for me or Satan's ugly destructive intention, the TRUTH found in the Word was that God was the same God who PASSIONATELY loved and wanted to give me (all of us) LIFE! That's the difference as I see it.

---

I'm praising with ya! But consider, if the suffering is meant for discipline, it's meant to be understood as discipline. Or else how does it function "as discipline" if it's believed by us to be Satan? How does one learn from the suffering of discipline when the suffering is believed (incorrectly) to be expereienced innocently?

quote:

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BTW, I wonder if how you're thinking about Mephi's seat belt analogy is determined on your mindset about wearing a seat belt?

---

Could be. Could be. I drive in Beirut, Lebanon! So seat belts here ARE a matter of life and death on a daily basis for me! Mephi never misses a beat, so I'm sure he'll have something to say about how I missed the analogy. Still, as an analogy. seat belts, I believe, cover so little of what prayer is I just don't find it that helpful an analogy. It's an analogy for some "prayers," but not for "prayer" as a discipline and lifestyle.

quote:

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I believe that I interpreted the analogy different from you. I took from this analogy that we wear a seat belt because it may make a difference on whether we will live or die IF we end up in a car wreck.

---

Exactly my point. In real life, it is not the case that prayer MAY make a difference or MAY save your life. It DOES make a difference and DOES save your life. Now, someone could suggest with respect to one particular bad accident that the driver would have survived even without her seat belt. Perhaps. But to make THIS sort of thing the controlling metaphor for all of life is ludicrous. For surely there are accidents where no doubt remains as to the role seat belts play. Given that we are in a war, why not elevate these and make them the controlling metaphor? If life is understood as a reckless, smash 'em up derby, where you are targetted on a constant basis, the idea that a seat belt only MAY help on occassion is so infintisimally small as to be pointless. It would be like a policeman on a SWAT team going through a building full of crazed gunmen who the policeman knows will fire at him. He will be hit. Prayer would be like a bullet-proof vest. Now, I'm sure it's true that sometimes being shot is not fatal. Should this ambiguity be figured into the decision to wear the protection vest or not? No. Given the nature of the terrain (we ARE fired upon, we WILL be hit, we ARE in accidents that total out our vehicle, we ARE targetted) the suggestion that prayer only MAY make a difference is just wrong. There may be ambiguity about how much difference the vest or the seat belt make on VERY FEW particular occassions. But this ambiguity cannot DEFINE the larger war or role which prayer plays.

quote:

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When compared with the urgency to pray I interpreted it to be that we pray as if our prayer WILL make a difference on whether God or Satan will triumph in the event of a "car wreck" in our daily life.

---

I'm trying to remove the "as if" way of defining prayer from your speech, Brandi. It's not accurate when all the facts are taken into consideraton. There's no "as if" that attaches to the efficacy, power, and necessity of prayer. We have every biblical justification for dropping this "as if" or "may make a difference" understanding of prayer. See it?

quote:

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I see the urgency of prayer in our life as being the same as needing to wear a seat belt to protect us. As we travel along in our life's journey we keep the seat belt of prayer on as protection.

---

If all prayer is is protection for US, then the analogy would be a great one I suppose. But protecting ourselves is only a small part of what prayer is and does. Prayer "does stuff" in the world. We live with some ambiguity about how much and when and how, but not WHETHER.

Gotta go get in my car and drive through Beirut! Aaarrrrrghh.

Tom

"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde


Edited by - TGB on 09/23/2002 01:53:14 AM

quote:

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Why praise and honor God if God is sometimes the source of evil? If God is sometimes the source of evil, what would then be the difference between praising and honoring God and praising and honoring the devil?

---

Personally, I think that God is supremely praiseworthy because God is the purposeful Creator of reality. One of the really cool things that God has graciously done for us (meaning Creation), according to the Faith, is accomplish the trinitarian deed of the Christ Work. I think this is plenty to praise and honor God about.

************************************

Tom:

quote:

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About Mephi’s “seat belt” analogy. I don’t think it’s very helpful.

---

This is I'm hearing from Tom:

The seat belt analogy is deficient in certain areas. First of all, it gives the impression that prayer is more of a passive, defensive, "cover your bases" type of thing. This is largely because we experience the fact that a person can go a long time without wearing one's seat belt without getting into an accident...or even IF they get into an accident, most of the time the seat belt is negligible. So, we often experience the seat belt phenomenon as a "just in case" measure.

But this is not fully representative of the Biblical worldview. The biblical worldview paints a portrait of an Adversary who is actively trying to "crash into us" at ALL times. It's more tense and war-like. Hence, prayer is necessary at all times. And it makes the urgency of prayer apparent. There is no biblical evidence that life can be accomplished without prayer.

And again, the seat belt analogy doesn't present prayer in it's offensive (as opposed to just defensive) mode.


Now, these are some of the concerns that I feel Tom is raising:

1) Prayer must be understood as being a necessary, urgent tool for life. If we are not careful with our conceptions about prayer, we may conceive prayer to be something that we can do WITHOUT...or at best something that can be done infrequently (and that as a "just in case" measure).

2) Prayer must be understood as being powerful and efficacious at ALL TIMES. It is possible to think that just because prayer doesn't guarantee specific requested ends that prayer is not powerful or effective in ANY wise. This is not the case. We have grounds to say that prayer is always having SOME type of positive effect SOMEWHERE.

3) Prayer must be understood as opening new possibilities for divine activity, human possibility, and divine/human interaction. This idea goes along with #2 above. Prayer helps open some vistas and close other unnecessary doors.

4) Points #1-3 are biblically supported articles of FAITH about prayer.


Ok. I'm not going to spend time trying to justify my analogy. I have reasons that I think that it helps to understand prayer. (Or so I've been told) As I know you understand, Tom, no SINGLE analogy is ever adequate to fully explicate all the dimensions and dynamics of prayer. So, I will just note what I want to be understood about prayer, as it relates to open view theism suppositions.


1) It is possible that there are creational factors that God must deal with, such that, despite sufficient levels of human spiritual activity (prayer, praise, etc) and God's own wish to act, God CANNOT bring the requested petition to pass. For example, it is possible that if a given community is praying for Sister Mary's imminent, this-worldly healing, prayer cover can be sufficient AND God can be particularly willing to DO the healing...but due to other creational factors, God would NOT be able to accomplish the healing being sought.

2) It is possible that good things CAN happen to people, NOT because of specific or narrowly designated divine activity, but from HUMAN effort and/or positive chance occurances. (For greater explication, please see my post on "Thoughts about Providence. I believe I provided the link earlier)

3) Even granting 1 and 2, it may still considered VERY, VERY unwise to STOP praying or become indifferent to prayer because of #1 above for a number of reasons:

a. Prayer is always effective...and it ALWAYS makes a difference. And it is ALWAY possible that it makes the crucial difference between triumph and tragedy. (Just like a serious car crash)

b. Prayer has more benefit than merely getting petitions met.

c. We are COMMANDED to pray by the Lord Jesus.


Now, what I would like people to see readily is that Tom's concerns and my concerns are in no way mutually exclusive. I understand and agree with Tom's points, especially if one is going from a biblical, dogmatic (not using this term pejoratively!) standpoint. I also understand that open view theism has a DEFINITIVE effect on one's idea of providence and THEREFORE on prayer. Tom said about insights from Tiessen's book:

quote:

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Prayer and providence go together. Most people’s prayers, if you listen to them closely, assume a much different model of providence than those people explicitly confess to. Tiessen argues that we should first figure out what sort of providence God exercises and pray accordingly.

---

Not in any way to intend steal thunder, but this line of thought shouldn't be new to this board. We've had this discussion long time ago. Doc, Meph, and others have repeatedly said that prayer is logically conditioned by one's view of providence...AND that people are largely inconsistent in this manner. I wish to make the point that this does happen significantly to open view theists!

[Digression: If you guys think about some major patterns that you can pick up from me, you may notice that one is this: I endeavor to take the open view CONSISTENTLY to all manners of faith and practice. This is not merely academic exercise but the true working out of one's "belief" in PRACTICE. We know that being a person of faith need NOT mean being conflicted and inconsisent (even though we rightfully acknowledge mystery and paradox when necessary) However, it is my experience, both with myself and others, that this is significantly the case. And to many people, it doesn't matter. Hey cool. But "as for ME and MY HOUSE" (lol) I want my theology and praxis to line up as much as they possibly can. That's MY thing. And things like this are my way of working through these issues to do that. Just saying the obvious, I guess ]


At any rate, I wanted people to understand that we are NOT at odds on prayer in general. About what is it, what it entails and all that. We are just emphasizing different facets of the same reality, as interpreted by the open view theism lens. If you don't like the seat belt analogy, hey, don't use it. No skin off my nose at all. But I'm hoping that we acknowledge that both Tom's AND my points are valid and important in the discussion about prayer with respect to divine providence ala open view theism.

Thank you.

Holla,


PS: Brandi, I thank you for getting value out of the analogy! You caught what I wanted to throw YAY!

quote:

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Yes, but how do you know this if you also believe God to sometimes be the source of evil? I agree that God "brings us life and life more abundantly." But I wouldn't know "how" to believe this if I also believed God was sometimes the source of evil

---

quote:

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One more thing: IF I were to try to start some static, I suppose that I would ask this question: Is it possible to live a happy, fulfilled life without prayer? If not, how do we explain happy, satiated atheists and non-theists? Worse yet, what about when "good things" happen to "bad people"? Hmmm...

---

Mephi-

Appreciated your comments on prayer. And I seriously appreciate you. I totally want my faith and praxis to work together. I’m hearing ya all the way.

I’m just starting into what I think will be a months long investigation into prayer. Ordered a ton of books on the subject and am slowing strolling my way through the Bible again looking for prayer. Hope to settle into some sort of resolution on this whole deal, not for academic reasons really, but because I want to pray intelligently, effectively, and meaningfully. I know you want the same.

About your question…we’ve had THIS conversation too! I’ll just throw out onto the table Psalm 73:3ff-17:

quote:

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For I envied the arrogant when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. They have no struggles; their bodies are healthy and strong. They are free from the burdens common to man; they are not plagued by human ills. Therefore pride is their necklace…This is what the wicked are like-- always carefree, they increase in wealth. Surely in vain have I kept my heart pure; in vain have I washed my hands in innocence. All day long I have been plagued; I have been punished every morning. If I had said, "I will speak thus," I would have betrayed your children. When I tried to understand all this, it was oppressive to me till I entered the sanctuary of God; then I understood their final destiny.

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Eschatology.

Gotta go.

Brandi, thanks for the response! Bless ya Sis!

Tom


"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde

quote:

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For I envied the arrogant when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. They have no struggles; their bodies are healthy and strong. They are free from the burdens common to man; they are not plagued by human ills. Therefore pride is their necklace…This is what the wicked are like-- always carefree, they increase in wealth. Surely in vain have I kept my heart pure; in vain have I washed my hands in innocence. All day long I have been plagued; I have been punished every morning. If I had said, "I will speak thus," I would have betrayed your children. When I tried to understand all this, it was oppressive to me till I entered the sanctuary of God; then I understood their final destiny.

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Eschatology, eh? Hmmm...I wonder did the author believe in universalism...or annihilationism...a purgatorial state preceding universalism...and a major sense of inclusivism that includes "good" Buddhists, Muslims, Confucianists, Taoists, and humanists in the end grace of God? See what I'm saying?


Moreover, I wasn't talking SPECIFICALLY about evil people (even though in some eschatological schemas, they TOO have chances) I was talking about good, morally healthy people who don't pray or believe in praying...or may think that they can do without it. It would seem that, depending on one's view, they would be just fine. Just some thoughts.


And very good graces on your study on prayer. Good topic to study!


Hootie hoo,


Edited by - Mephi2K on 09/23/2002 1:25:02 PM

quote:

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In sum, if we grant that we should be open to God talking to us at all times, and grant that God sometimes talks in unusual unexpected ways, even telling us that what looks evil is actually in some sense his doing so we should (like Paul) back off from it, but that we should regard it as something that God is AGAINST unless he tells us otherwise -- have we not covered all the concerns raised on this thread?

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IF we are specifically talking about what God, from what we understand of God, is against but NOT dogmatic on who's promoting the "evil"...and IF this doesn't lead to hubris-filled declarations about what is God and what ain't God (ala Jerry Falwell)...sure. Again the MAIN reason that I bring all this up is because of the propensity for people to think they KNOW things and, even subconsciously, push OTHER EXPLANATIONS out the window. "Oh, I KNOW this is God. Oh, I KNOOOOW this ain't God." That type of thing. Just like some of the religious leaders KNEW Jesus wasn't really of God, right?? Stay open. God has surprised us on more than a couple occasions. From what I understand, healthy recognition of ambiguity goes a long way in maintaining a sense of openness to reality.

Doc, when you get time (and rest), check out the thread in detail. We did a thing using Piercean categories that I REALLY THINK bridges the "We can't act upon this" idea.


Holla at ya later. Good to see you again.

Peace,