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seeker35
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   Posted 7/20/2003 11:21 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dr. Boyd.
I listened to your recent sermon. sounds good. how do you do it? i tried. let me hear how YOU did it. specifically. then, maybe, i'll try again.

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GregBoyd
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   Posted 7/20/2003 12:54 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I listened to your recent sermon. sounds good.

Doc: Why thank you.

how do you do it?

Doc: do what? preach?

i tried. let me hear how YOU did it. specifically. then, maybe, i'll try again.

Doc: Are you looking for tips on preaching? If so, I'm not sure I have much to offer, but let me know.

Blessings
Doc




"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10.

Edited by - GregBoyd on 07/20/2003 5:54:59 PM
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seeker35
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   Posted 7/20/2003 2:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
you're making fun of me. fine. no, ain't talking about preaching. I was asking for real, how'd you get there. forget it. not everything is a joke, okay? Yeah, I read plato too. the responsibility is with me? don't see it. maybe I thought wrong about you.

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Laika
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   Posted 7/20/2003 3:38 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
seeker35

Here's your original question:

quote:

I listened to your recent sermon. sounds good. how do you do it? i tried. let me hear how YOU did it. specifically. then, maybe, i'll try again.



"How do you do it?" What do you mean by the "it"? Do what? Please be more specific.




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seeker35
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   Posted 7/20/2003 5:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
okay, fair enough. I wasn't too specific. what I meant was, how did Greg get to the point of letting go of himself? I came to that point--I know that's what it takes---but how to get there? beats me.

you guys here, you're really smart. I can see that. I admit I couldn't keep up with any of you--sure I could die trying, but it's not worth it. God don't give a shit about smart. You all know that, too, So, how'd you get there? I guess I was saying that I want to get there, too.

Greg, I think he's pretty cool. He looks like Christ, to me. I got nothing against him. Not quite trusting here, but pretty much. But, I don't get how he got there. ...this is the time to get there???? To die to self???? Tell me how.

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seeker35
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   Posted 7/20/2003 5:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
okay, fair enough. I wasn't too specific. what I meant was, how did Greg get to the point of letting go of himself? I came to that point--I know that's what it takes---but how to get there? beats me.

you guys here, you're really smart. I can see that. I admit I couldn't keep up with any of you--sure I could die trying, but it's not worth it. God don't give a shit about smart. You all know that, too, So, how'd you get there? I guess I was saying that I want to get there, too.

Greg, I think he's pretty cool. He looks like Christ, to me. I got nothing against him. Not quite trusting here, but pretty much. But, I don't get how he got there. ...this is the time to get there???? To die to self???? Tell me how.

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Blood Washed Heretic
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   Posted 7/21/2003 6:01 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Welcome, Seeker!!!

It is awesome to see your heart on display. Your desire to fully surrender to God is something that not many have, so I commend you.

I haven't heard the sermon you heard, but dying to self is not easy. The good news is that it's not impossible!!! If you've chosen to follow Jesus Christ as Lord, then ask Him to help you. If you haven't made that decision yet, then (right now) ask Him to be Lord of your life. Tell Him that you believe He is Christ (Messiah, Savior) and that your life belongs to Him now...

Then find a local church where you can make that decision known and get involved in fellowship and ministry. The Christian life is life lived in community with others. We here can help you some, but you need people in your non-cyber life who will support you in your life with Christ as well.

I hope this helps...

I'm praying for you.

Edited by - Blood Washed Heretic on 07/21/2003 11:03:18 AM
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Tigress
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   Posted 7/21/2003 6:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi seeker35,
I'm honored to be able to respond to your question. If you haven't already accepted Jesus into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior, you need to do that before you can die to yourself. Only the Holy Spirit can help you change from the inside out. And the only way the Holy Spirit can live in your heart is if you accept Jesus.

After that, I don't think there's any formula to follow in order to die to yourself. I think part of it is simply reminding yourself to let go of the things that are causing you anxiety and asking Jesus to take them and do with them as He Wills. Like for instance, right now my landlord is trying to sell the duplex that I live in and I don't know if the next owners will want to rent out to me or not. But if they do, it's more than likely that they'd double my rent. So, I have to look for a new place to live. I'm looking to buy a condo or townhome, but that's going to cost me a lot in monthly payments. But I figured that I'd be paying almost that amount anyway if I had to rent somewhere else. I just wish this wasn't happening. It's really stressful and I don't want to have to move since I've been here for 6 years. But, it's sort of out of my hands. And since it is, I'm putting it in God's hands. I'm doing my part and have been working with a real estate agent and looking at places, but ultimately, I'm relying upon God to give me peace and guide me to make the correct decision about where to live. If I didn't have God to do this for me, I'd probably literally have a nervous breakdown, because I'm not very knowledgeable about finances and all the little intricacies of loans and homeownership.

My dad is not a Christian, so he stresses himself out about every little tidbit of information and he doesn't trust anyone. In the world, that's smart. But he's missing the most integral part of the equation - God. God can make things happen, that would otherwise not happen. God can lead me to the right person to help me, the right place to live, for the best price. I still have to use my brain and be discerning, but once I reach the point where I just can't figure out something, I give it to God to take care of. If I couldn't do this, I'd be living in fear and anxiety. That's not how God wants His children to have to live. If we die to self and give up all these things to God, we can live life to the fullest, knowing that in the end, none of these things will matter in God's Kingdom. Even if I managed to make a mistake in the here and now in regards to purchasing a condo or something, in the end, that problem won't follow me into heaven. So, I can let it die within me.

Is this making any sense? It's a bit long. I hope I was of some help though.

Tigress

The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7
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Tigress
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   Posted 7/21/2003 8:27 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:

Hi seeker35,
I'm honored to be able to respond to your question. If you haven't already accepted Jesus into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior, you need to do that before you can die to yourself. Only the Holy Spirit can help you change from the inside out. And the only way the Holy Spirit can live in your heart is if you accept Jesus.

After that, I don't think there's any formula to follow in order to die to yourself. I think part of it is simply reminding yourself to let go of the things that are causing you anxiety and asking Jesus to take them and do with them as He Wills. Like for instance, right now my landlord is trying to sell the duplex that I live in and I don't know if the next owners will want to rent out to me or not. But if they do, it's more than likely that they'd double my rent. So, I have to look for a new place to live. I'm looking to buy a condo or townhome, but that's going to cost me a lot in monthly payments. But I figured that I'd be paying almost that amount anyway if I had to rent somewhere else. I just wish this wasn't happening. It's really stressful and I don't want to have to move since I've been here for 6 years. But, it's sort of out of my hands. And since it is, I'm putting it in God's hands. I'm doing my part and have been working with a real estate agent and looking at places, but ultimately, I'm relying upon God to give me peace and guide me to make the correct decision about where to live. If I didn't have God to do this for me, I'd probably literally have a nervous breakdown, because I'm not very knowledgeable about finances and all the little intricacies of loans and homeownership.

My dad is not a Christian, so he stresses himself out about every little tidbit of information and he doesn't trust anyone. In the world, that's smart. But he's missing the most integral part of the equation - God. God can make things happen, that would otherwise not happen. God can lead me to the right person to help me, the right place to live, for the best price. I still have to use my brain and be discerning, but once I reach the point where I just can't figure out something, I give it to God to take care of. If I couldn't do this, I'd be living in fear and anxiety. That's not how God wants His children to have to live. If we die to self and give up all these things to God, we can live life to the fullest, knowing that in the end, none of these things will matter in God's Kingdom. Even if I managed to make a mistake in the here and now in regards to purchasing a condo or something, in the end, that problem won't follow me into heaven. So, I can let it die within me.

Is this making any sense? It's a bit long. I hope I was of some help though.

Tigress

The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7



Oops! In writing this, I'm not presuming to speak for Greg Boyd or anything. I saw and heard his sermon on Sunday, and am here only attempting to explain it as I understood it, especially pertaining to my own life. So, please don't think I was trying to be patronizing or condescending or anything. I just wanted to give my two-cents.

Tigress

The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7
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seeker35
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   Posted 7/21/2003 9:28 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
First, sorry I posted twice. I was trying to edit something, but it didn’t work. So I gave up.

Tigress. No sorries about it. Thanks for talking. You kind of said some things I could relate to. A while ago, and now too. Hope things get better for you. They do. Just gotta wait.
Sounds like you’re doing the right things, in the meantime. That’s all you can do. And you’re there, that’s something no one can take away from you. You might even help me. I’m glad for you.

Well, I was looking for a formula. Ain’t there, huh? Too bad.

Blood washed heretic. Where’ you get that name? …I talked to God. I said it all. I don’t know anyone else around here who cares. I thought maybe greg and you all could sort of give me some advice. But, he’s not talking, apparently.


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GregBoyd
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   Posted 7/21/2003 6:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
HI Seeker,

Sorry you thought I was making fun of you. Believe me, that was not at all my intent. I honestly didn't know what you were asking for. My best guess was that "it" referred to preaching, but it was only a guess. Also, if I don't respond to a posting quickly, don't take it personally. My participation on the web site is sporadic. When I get a chance I glance at recent topics and dive into whatever I can. Lately I've been most obsessed with the counterfactual issue. Anyway...

On the dying to the self thing... I will be talking about this for the next several months getting increasingly specific on things we can do to further the process. Right now, given that I have to leave in 3 minutes, I can only offer to general but, I believe, very important considerations.
1) Focus on the value of the treasure, for treasure is what makes "selling the field" worth it, and eventually natural. Be very intentional on spending time with Jesus and what this means for your life.
2) All change proceeds from the spirit (innermost will of a person) to their mind to their emotions to their deeds. You clearly have the INTENT in your innermost being. Now concentrate on "being transformed by the renewing of your mind. " Be very intentionally with your thought. The Bible tells to take EVERY THOUGHT captive to Christ (2 Cor 10"5). So whenever you find remember to do so, think thoughts like:
* life is Christ, nothing else matters
* the life of Jesus Christ flows through me, right here and right now
* I am loved with an everlasting love this very moment
* That person I see has infinite worth before God. Bless them Lord Jesus.
* the peace and power and joy of God almighty flows in me and through me right here and right now
* at this moment, it is no longer I that lives, but Christ who lives in me
* I am filled with the fulness of God and manifest it in this situation
* Because of Jesus I am holy and loving
* The infinite love of the triune God pulsates through every fiber of my being
* I used to need to do/think/feel (whatever) to be okay, but I do so no longer. Christ is my only sufficiency.

A thousand times a day, at all times in all places... THINK ON THESE THINGS (Phil 4:8).

Sow a thought, you'll eventually reap a deed, Sow a deed, reap a habit. Sow a habit, reap a character. Sow a character, reap a destiny.

But be patient with yourself, without just accepting that as you are you shall always be. Its a process. Paul said both "It's no longer I that lives but Christ who lives within me" and "I crucify myself daily."

Blessings, gotta run

Doc

"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10.
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/21/2003 7:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Nice post, Greg!!!
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BBBCanada
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   Posted 7/22/2003 3:57 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah Greg, nice post. I've been thinking of this one lately:
quote:
That person I see has infinite worth before God. Bless them Lord Jesus.


So many times when someone wrongs us, our first reaction is to respond in kind. And we rationalize. "Well, I believe in love, but I don't think God wants us to be a doormat."

This is worldiness. It is merely an excuse to not be responsible and give up our rights. We want to have a perfect corner of the world. No disturbances. Perfect relationships. No work. It is the failure to see that even the most beautiful of relationships bring some of the deepest pain. Wheels break off of new toy wagons.

Who do we think we are anyway? Are we so untouchable? When we give up our "right" to NOT be hurt, we cast down graven images of ourselves. One of the greatest things is knowing that I'm not Superman. Bullets don't bounce of my heart filled chest.



Brandon
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seeker35
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   Posted 7/22/2003 4:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dear Dr. Boyd,
I realize you’re not there or able to respond here again. But, anyway, I wanted to say thanks very much for getting back to me. Unfortunately, I think I’m more confused than ever now.

I just realized I don’t know what dying to self is even supposed to mean. I think I’m confusing religions here. God Gave me a Self. Is that so bad? Yes, I see about taking every thought captive to Christ, …but …are we supposed to become Christ, cause that’s the only way to get to him? IS that our only worth?


So, in this afterlife everyone talks about so much, we’re not ourselves? I don’t want that. I want to see individuals. I thought God did too. So, can anyone explain that to me?
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Laika
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   Posted 7/22/2003 4:18 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:

So, in this afterlife everyone talks about so much, we’re not ourselves? I don’t want that. I want to see individuals. I thought God did too. So, can anyone explain that to me?



I think the idea is to let the moral qualities of Jesus shine through each individual personality. You're right, God made us unique individuals. I think He wants to see billions of individuals infused with the life of Jesus.

For example, car mechanics with a sense of humor are now car mechanics with a sense of humor that exhibit the fruits of the spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

And so on.


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seeker35
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   Posted 7/22/2003 5:12 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
So, it’s not really about dying to Self. It’s about dying to selfishness. That’s what I thought before. So, now I know what we’re talking about, I can at least be sure I’m shooting for the right thing. Dr. Boyd’s words confused me. I don’t want to be Christ—I mean, that would be great, but it ain’t gonna happen. I want to be the best “me” there is—the one God intended me to be. That might sound egotistical. I don’t mean it that way. I mean, God made me, and everyone, unique. So, being what he intended would be to His glory, not mine.

Now, it takes time, I guess. A process. I’m not known for my patience. But, who knows.
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might-be-don
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   Posted 7/22/2003 5:31 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
seeker35,

One of the ways you can look at it is:

Replace the question "What do I want?" with "What does God want?" .

examples...

I want to sit around and watch tv and eat ice cream.
God wants me to help bear my brothers burdens by cutting my next door neighbors grass because he is sick this week.

I want more fancy electronic toys.
God wants me to send my missionary buddy some money for gas in his automobile.

I want a peaceful dinner with my family.
God wants a peaceful dinner for my family.

( every once in awhile things line up )

Paying attention ( and saying yes ) to these promptings of the Holy Spirit lead to a "dying of the self" .

peace, don



---
"You cannot step twice into the same river; for fresh waters are ever flowing in upon you." Heraclitus
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GregBoyd
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   Posted 7/22/2003 5:32 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Seeker: I want to be the best “me” there is—the one God intended me to be. That might sound egotistical. I don’t mean it that way. I mean, God made me, and everyone, unique. So, being what he intended would be to His glory, not mine.

Doc: I think you're getting it Seeker. This is why in my sermon I made the distinction between the "false" YOU and the "true" you. The "false" you is the YOU defined by the world, the YOu that sees itself as the center of existence, tries to meet its own needs, lives autonomous from God, etc... The TRUE you is the you that is defined by God, gets life ultimately from God, is surrendered wholly to God -- the YOU God intended YOU to be. Far from destroying our uniqueness, we only fully manifest our uniqueness when living as the TRUE self God created us to be -- beautifully living out of the fullness of God's life flowing to us, in us, and through us as we are wholly surrendered to him.

Greg

"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10.
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shell
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   Posted 7/22/2003 5:43 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Shell:
Beautiful, annointed sermon Greg.



Brandon:
quote:


So many times when someone wrongs us, our first reaction is to respond in kind. And we rationalize. "Well, I believe in love, but I don't think God wants us to be a doormat."

This is worldiness. It is merely an excuse to not be responsible and give up our rights. We want to have a perfect corner of the world. No disturbances. Perfect relationships. No work. It is the failure to see that even the most beautiful of relationships bring some of the deepest pain. Wheels break off of new toy wagons.

Who do we think we are anyway? Are we so untouchable? When we give up our "right" to NOT be hurt, we cast down graven images of ourselves. One of the greatest things is knowing that I'm not Superman. Bullets don't bounce of my heart filled chest.



Shell: I REALLY appreciate your thoughts here Brandon. The doormat issue can get a little tricky...I participate in the prayer team at church, and invariably there is always someone, I hear it nearly every Sunday, who takes a sermon like this and applies it to their life in a very skewed way,such as believing that dying to self means staying in an abusive relationsip, and truly being a doormat. That said, I completely agree that on the flip side it can be an excuse to maintain our fleshly desire to be in control, to not be "subject" to anyone, and to not lay down our will and our self.

I posted a while back on my struggle to understand what true forgiveness "feels" like when there has been extreme hurt involved. Since I posted that, the Lord has really been working in my life on this particular issue. It is a difficult one for me because it involves a lot of dying to self that Greg preached on in his sermon, and the things you talked about in your post Brandon. I have this strong sense of justice(that's why I became a social worker), but relinquishing my sense of justice(on a personal level) to the Lord is the ultimate in dying to my self. My sense of justice pales in comparison to the Lord's justice, which I believe embodies the ultimate in love, sacrifice, compasion etc. Letting go of trying to always have the most "just" outcome in my life or for those around me, is the hardest thing for me because it involves complete trust in the Lord. The Lord is showing me that when I lay down my "rights", I have everything to gain, but when I am trying to maintain control, or justice, or seeking to be understood instead of seeking to understand, forgive and let go...then I am "striving" and not "being".

I think forgiveness is a concsious choice at every turn to lay down our sense of justice, our need to be understood, our need to feel worth in another's eyes, making the choice to turn the other cheek and letting Jesus speak those truths to our Spirit, and letting go of the desire/hunger to have another fulfill that need.

As painful as it has been, I am thankful for this journey of learning what it really means to truly forgive.
Thanks for sharing those thoughts Brandon.

Shell
"We are the master over our unspoken words, but slaves to our spoken words."
-unknown













Edited by - shell on 07/22/2003 1:37:33 PM
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seeker35
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   Posted 7/22/2003 8:30 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brandon. I want to talk to you a minute, okay? You’re not real approachable. So I’m asking first.

Yes, you’re right. You said, One of the greatest things is knowing that I'm not Superman. Bullets don't bounce of my heart filled chest.

They don’t off mine, either.

Might-be-don. Are you don, or not? Jesus, someone should have asked you that a long time ago. Now, we okay? Good. Now, what you said made some sense. But, are you living there? Cause I’m not. Trying, but not doing. It’s impossible.

Does it come eventually? I’m not sure.

Shell, get back to you later. You rock. You said, The Lord is showing me that when I lay down my "rights", I have everything to gain, but when I am trying to maintain control, or justice, or seeking to be understood instead of seeking to understand, forgive and let go...then I am "striving" and not "being". Too much for me to handle right now.

Dr. Boyd. Glad you thought enough to check. thanks.

have to go. yeah, I work, too.

Pow, do you work? :-)
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BBBCanada
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   Posted 7/22/2003 8:56 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks shell,

I appreciate your kind words. I'll have a little more to say tomorrow. I HIGHLY recommend this book:


I read this on a sunny fall afternoon last year in a little diner not to far from here. It is a wonderful book. A year after arriving in L'Arche community of Daybreak in Toronto, an international movement of communities that welcome people with disabilities, Henri suffered a severe depression. He left the community for seven months of solitude, guidance, and recovery. During this time he wrote this classic book. Check out Henri Nouwen's site:nouwen.net/henri.php3

Brandon
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BBBCanada
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   Posted 7/22/2003 9:07 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
seeker35,

Thanks for asking first. E-mail me.

Brandon
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Blood Washed Heretic
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   Posted 7/22/2003 9:17 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey Seeker, glad to see that things are getting a bit clearer. And you're right about it being a process. I won't speak for everyone else, but I know I'm not there either. Keep asking Christ for His help, He's faithful to do what He's promised, and His promise is to be with us always (Matt. 28:20).

Also, I just want to encourage you again to find a church family if you don't have one already. Find brothers and sisters to fellowship with, and mentors to be discipled by. Your life in Christ will continue to grow and deepen if you do.

I'm still praying for you...

In essentials, unity; In matters of opinion, liberty; In all things, love.
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might-be-don
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   Posted 7/22/2003 10:46 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
But, are you living there? Cause I’m not. Trying, but not doing. It’s impossible.


Well... sort of yes, sort of no. I'm becoming. The yes part includes that to some degree I wake up when God bangs me over the head, and sometimes I do it. The no part includes seeing that God was speaking in hindsight, thus not doing it.

I think that we can't die to those things that God hasn't made "real" to us. We can read it in a book, maybe the bible, maybe one of Greg's books, but until the the Spirit breathes life into it for us we can only beat ourselves up with the law, and like you say, "It's impossible". I say read, search things out, and you will find that when God "brings to rememberance" the power to do it will be born of the Holy Spirit in you.

Your first steps in this may not be on the moon, but they will take you forward.

peace, don

---
"You cannot step twice into the same river; for fresh waters are ever flowing in upon you." Heraclitus
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Eli
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   Posted 7/22/2003 12:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Might-Be-Don, Well put. Those are good words.

Seeker35, I thought I'd let ya know I'm struggling with alot of these same issues, so you're not alone . This post has been a good read so far.


"...it is fools, they say, who learn by experience. But since they do at least learn, let a fool bring his experience into the common stock that wiser men may profit by it." -C.S. Lewis
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