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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > (No Subject) | Forum Quick Jump
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|  1way Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 299 | Posted 6/11/2004 8:14 AM (GMT -6) |   | Greg Boyd - post 1 of 2
Greetings in the name of the Lord. And blessings to you! Some day I would love to ask you to help me understand certain finer points of your understanding of the Open View. I've heard some confusing or questionable things particularly in your debate in the book about the 3 or 4 views, including simple and middle knowledge, etc. More importantly, I hear you are doing wonders for promoting the Open View, and for that I am immensely grateful. I am confident that your ideas are greatly helping many people. Please keep up the good work.
Now to another of your ideas. You said quote: Maybe we are wired by God to BE incarnated in our speech, so the idea of "de-personalized" speech is misguided. I honestly don't know. What I DO know is that I and others grow weary of the constant "I'm offended" thing.
I think there is no maybe about it. How we communicate is precisely a part of who we are. Consider God's lead. He wrote the bible, and as we read it, we find God and His character most truthfully extolled. God most certainly appreciates writing as being a good and effective tool of communication from His heart to ours. 
But you sort of contradict your own focus of importance in your generalization of the situation. If the ideas should be the main thing, then so what if people get offended, the ideas really are more important, so just minimize what is less important. But eternally speaking, people are immensely important, the issue of heaven and hell and eternal rewards weigh in the balance. Ideas are supposed to serve a higher purpose than just existing, they are supposed to be believed or rejected by (mere) humans. Our service to God involves a natural blend of all that matters, "beliefs" and "people", both. I see no way to separate the one from the other, and I see no reason to do so. Some folks are more ethical minded, some are more theoretical minded, some are both, some are neither. We are all gifted in different ways, all serving one another, and all are important to God. But I agree that application of dealing with both items (people and ideas) can become problematic to say the least. Same is true in person or in groups, from near or from afar.
Consider your lead By your writings, you have helped thousands (forgive me, I do not know your publication rates and would be interested in knowing them) , perhaps you are influencing upwards to a million people (perhaps many more!) with your writings. The venue of the written word is certainly a wonderful and well proven thing.
The heart of the matter The common denominator in communication is an issue of the heart, not an issue of the venue in which people communicate. Take books for example, there are wonderful books, and there are terrible books. Same with TV, radio, internet forums, churches, and pubs.
Comfort and joy in all things I agree that within a Church or small group fellowship or personal bible study setting, you typically (to some extent) can pick and choose who you worship with. This similarity of likeminded faith edifies and encourages us. But then again, our praise in God needs to gladly reach other less "comfort zone" groups, including those who also praise God but are not of such a similar like-minded faith. In so much as it is within out power to do, we should be in peace and unity of faith with all the brethren. And of course, our love of God should even go to the utmost to those who are certain enemies of God, doing whatever we can to reach the lost in hopes of bringing even just one into salvation.
Correction comes from an opposing view Keeping at least some contact with people with less then like minded faith is thus a good thing to do. And usually that is the best path to new growth in the Lord. The only way to grow is to be open and willing to finding out that you were somehow in the wrong. And because of our mindset, we automatically tend to protect how it is that we think we are right, so most typically, we need to engage ourselves with others who's perspective and insight may well challenge us in a way that may lead us into greater truth and a deeper walk with God.
Rightly understanding people is messy business Some people want to suppress what is inside for a myriad of reasons, so those types are harder to get a fuller picture, although such suppression is often easy to discover by a lack of personal openness. Some people are very tricky and may open themselves up but not walk very upright about things, so we get distorted views. Sure, there are all kinds of problems that people create. So what. God seems to think it's all worth the effort, He gave His love for all of us even while we were yet sinners, and we are no more special and loving and wise than God is. 
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 |  1way Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 299 | Posted 6/11/2004 8:17 AM (GMT -6) |   | Greg Boyd - post 2 of 2
God as our lead Jesus opened Himself up and did not worry too much about what others would say or think, He just hoped and expected that they should respond appropriately. You never heard Him say, man, maybe being so open and honest is not such a good idea, because most people are rejecting me and what I teach. Jesus is healthy and can handle personal rejection, rebellion happens. He has nothing to hide, no shame to protect, no ill thing to defend against.
In fact, most believers I know find a universal truth. The more you clearly know Jesus, the more joyous and happy and energized you are to share Him with others (some frustrations may apply). It's like the more we become like Him, the more hardship we are willing to endure in order to get the word out. Jesus truly gives us strength and empowers our witness. Get life, rejoice and be glad in it, and then turn around and share it with others. That everyone will have "Jesus" more fully.
The following is a hallmark teaching and many others support as well. It is from the heart that we share. Mt 12:34 "Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil , speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. We are not just fruit checkers, we check the fruit to check "them", we know "people" by what they produce, i.e. bring forth from their heart. Mt 7:20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Mt 15:3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? ... ... 6 ‘then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.  7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, ... 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’" 11 "Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man." 12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?" 13 But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 "Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind . And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."  15 Then Peter answered and said to Him, "Explain this parable to us." 16 So Jesus said, "Are you also still without understanding? 17 "Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18 "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20 "These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man." We are not to judge by superficially, but substantially, not just the outward appearance, but from the resources of one's heart, judging matters that really count.
Joh 7:24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." We need to learn to do this by the leading of the Holy Spirit, it is easy to judge things wrongly.
1Co 2:15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is [rightly] judged by no one. Lastly, I find great liberty in the Lord where we can trust God's wisdom in teaching us "error prone units" to judge righteously despite so much error that will certainly happen. If someone is wrong in their judgment, then, ok, so be it. God never said only judge if you do so without mistake. When people have a humble and God centered world view, such mistakes are no problem. You just say, oh, sorry, I see I was mistaken, and all is well. I live in the USA, and we have a serious self pride/self righteousness problem. Some personal tests may apply.
Are you genuinely glad to be shown you are in the wrong? If so, then even if someone is mistaken that you were wrong, you can kindly thank them for the caring effort because they sought what was best for you. The following is a slap in the face to the typical "judge not" mindset.
Humility happens Pr 9:8 Do not correct a scoffer, lest he hate you; Rebuke a wise man, and he will love you.
Pr 27:5 Open rebuke is better Than love carefully concealed.
Re 3:19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. Judging others should not be the scope of the issue, although certainly it usually is, it should be perfectly fine to rebuke people, and everything is well. It is so wonderful to see a great offense averted when a soul is truly sorry, lives are changed, marriages are saved, and fellowship is restored, all because of how we respond.
Self-humility is that indispensable to right relations. Political "correctness" has blinding effects upon the masses, and so all the more we should be ambassadors of the truth and do right no matter how ineffective you think it may be. A soul that is humble to the things of God, is a mighty and precious thing.
Inclusive or exclusive Love and rebuke are supposed to go hand in hand, and rebuke is (or at least can be) a really harsh sort of judgment! However today, we are skilled at self-defense against even subtle challenges to our "in the right" status. People even are known to say that if you are just being "critical", you may have already crossed the line.
Influence happens Lead the way of truth, if you want others to be more gracious, then display grace. If you want people to be more respectful, then display that benefit. It is by our godly witness in this world that others are most likely to be moved to appreciate and change their lives.
"Politically correct" verses "righteously wrong" Rebuke a wise man, and he will LOVE YOU!?! Talk about a reversal of emphasis. But that is where God has the onus, it's in the response that matters and can straight out what is otherwise crooked, being human and exhibiting error is only being human, and since we all do it, making mistakes should be no problem, it's just natural, what is more important is responding well to them. Although this will not settle every issue of contention, such humility toward one another can just melt so many otherwise undoable problems.
If the shoe of rebuke fits, don't (just) ware it, love it. If it doesn't fit, then you are evidently in the right which is also a good deal, so respond in love, do right, praise God, we are all human, error happens.
Win win You are shown in the wrong, great, everyone wins. You are shown not in the wrong, great, everyone wins. It's only when a person raises their own sense of self righteousness that this "win win" situation becomes hard to implement. We are only responsible for our own actions, and with a humble heart towards godly influence, by our thoughtful purposeful responses, others may be well helped.
God was good and right for teaching us to judge (even rebuke) with righteous judgment. And also for expecting the response to be an others centered blessing mentality.
Thank you much for opening up this wonderful venue and for being a positive influence despite our many differences of opinion and world views. Certainly through us who love Him, Jesus has graced these pages more than once. Thanks for your thoughtfulness and time.
People matter, beliefs matter, humility makes them both more doable, mutual humility and godliness is win-win.
To purposeful grow in Him, 1Way
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 |  1way Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 299 | Posted 12/25/2004 7:41 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Six months and still not response. Maybe he'll respond next year... | | Back to Top | | |
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