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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/7/2004 5:17 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Selah
quote:
Originally posted by DLW
And so the question is what do we do when someone else feels led to challenge us on what we feel is our calling or right-teaching/action.
selah:
I guess what I would do is weigh the challenge against a number of factors. For one, I'd consider my own history with the person who's challenging me (their credibility with me through time), the current context, purpose of the challenge, and whether or not I (or trusted counselors in my life) thought it was appropriate. Then I'd pray a lot in order to decide if I should take the challenge personally or reject it as something I can't attend to at this time. (After all, if I'm committed to seeking God - and the challenger feels led by God - then surely God will concur :)
But how do we know God concurs?
I can testify to how Xtns use their political capital is an important part of their public witness to the rest of the world as someone who has lived outside the US for the past two years and spent my previous years as a grad-student interacting heavily with internationals.
Whether we acknowledge it or not, how we act politically is part of our public witness. In saying that, I'm not saying that we should all do what I say. I'm saying that we need to deliberate more on how we actually do act politically. We need to perhaps pay more attention to the National Evangelical Association's "Evangelical Call to Civic Engagement". We need to perhaps suscribe to prism or sojourners' email alerts that deal with current political issues from a Christian perspective.
Its been hard at times being told by people about the things that the US has been responsible for in its int'l manipulations with the politics of other countries. Ultimately, a good deal of the responsibility for this does lie with us citizens for not monitoring the actions of our leaders and holding them more accountable for their actions, restricting them from going where the easy money lies.
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Following politics is part of loving our neighbor. Acting apart from our own interests in politics on the behalf of others is a historically important way that barriers to the sharing of the Gospel or other barriers have been reduced.
selah:
Ok d, I hear you. Following politics and acting apart from our own interests politically can be ONE way of loving our neighbor. Some are called to love their neighbor that way, some in other ways. When we are asked our political opinion - if we have one and if it would help our neighbor - perhaps we should give it. However, there are many many many many other ways of loving our neighbor. I think our job is to discern the best way to love our neighbor now...and then now...and now. Sometimes, in the now, love looks like picking up a tiny piece of trash off the floor just to spare anyone else the task of bending down to do it themselves. (st therese ;)
Sure, but politics is far more ever-present than we often care to admit. You see there are always changes being made and when you change laws/regulations/codes then some people are helped and some people are hurt. Moneyed interests are really good at organizing to advance and protect their interests, lower-to-middle income-types are not so good at organizing and so they are more likely to come out short, quite often.
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It can, but so can posting at discussion-boards or playing on entertainment sets or watching/playing sports or even getting involved in church-politics.
selah:
NO, NOT the entertainment playing...but I'll give you the other two (don't even go there d)
love
selah
Ah, we've found your sacred cow....
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/7/2004 5:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Sahid and DLW (and anyone else who is involved in politics), how are you involved and what does being involved in the political system look like in your opinion?
Just curious. Thank you!
When I was a graduate student, I volunteered a good deal of my time during my last two years to be an organizer to start up a union for graduate employees at my university.
It was kind of fun, creative-witnessing tool. I would pray out loud before my partner before we went out at night to collect signatures so we could have the election. It may have discouraged some from wanting to organize with me, but it was quite ironic when I was having far more success getting signatures than most other people. All this, even though I was probably the most conservative union-organizer ever.
I also got to make friends with many people that I couldn't have otherwise and for whom I am probably their only contact with "evangelical" Christianity.
I wrote letters to politicians. I wrote a letter to Paul Wellstone sharing about my idea, sharing about my alternative-faith-based position and how compromise on the legal redefinition of when human personhood begins could be acheived.
He wrote back to me the following...
August 13, 2002
Dear Mr Wetzell:
Thank you for contacting me regarding abortion and a woman's right to
choose. I know your views on this issue are strong and deeply felt, and please know that I respect your opinions.
Like most Americans, I believe abortion should be safe, legal and rare. Decisions about whether to terminate a pregnancy are some of the most private and agonizing medical decisions a woman can face. Therefore, I do not believe that the government should be able to interfere with a woman's right to make this decision for herself.
However, I do agree that we should work to reduce the number of abortions performed in this country-- not through an outright ban, but by placing a greater emphasis on educating all men and women, especially teenagers, about how unwanted pregnancy can be avoided. To this end, I have consistently supported increased funding for family planning programs.
I also believe that we need to provide greater support for those who
choose to have children. This support should include pre- and post-natal care, parental leave, child care and increased funding for programs which promote adoption. I want to assure you, therefore, that I will continue pressing for measures in the Senate that support children and families.
Again, thank you for contacting me. I hope that you will keep in touch on other matters of mutual concern.
Sincerely,
Paul David Wellstone
United States Senator
I now have a blog where I comment on the NAE's "Evangelical Call to Civic Responsibility", where I point out stuff of interest and I also have links to my own party-platform. I think my party-platform is here at CVM. Just search Christian Pragmatic Progressive Party platform.
I talk to my family and try to get them to pay a little more attention to politics. At TWeb, I try to be even-handed in how I deal with politics, discouraging demagoguery and encouraging more productive discussion.
I did contribute money this past December to Wesley Clarke who was my preferred Democratic Candidate and, lately, I've been trumpeting the idea that the Republican Party would be smart if they replaced Bush with John McCain as their candidate.
One can say that debating with others isn't really going to make political changes, but honest debate does spread knowledge and can modify people's views so they make act differently and that can make a difference in an election.
I mean one of my fellow posters at TWeb who is from a conservative background, gave a post just today that insisted that to judge Farenheit 9-11 one has to watch it and he acknowledged that Moore couldn't be condemned in his view for spinning the facts, anymore than Ann Coulter does from a conservative-perspective.
This showed a maturity that treated one's political opponents with love and that focuses on discerning the facts versus the spin rather than condemning the director from the outset as a liar.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 7/7/2004 7:11 AM (GMT -6) | | DLW: your response reminds me of an ole LArry Norman song, which contains the line "nothing really changes everything remains the same, we are what we are til the day that we die."
Bush and America are evil, if everybody will just listen to me the answers are right here.
Still trying to save the natives from their ignorance...how totally cool; howver, some of us are just destined for hell.
BTW, Moore has the right to his views. He doesn't have the right to call them a documentary, when they are not. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/7/2004 7:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by honorman
DLW: your response reminds me of an ole LArry Norman song, which contains the line "nothing really changes everything remains the same, we are what we are til the day that we die."
Bush and America are evil, if everybody will just listen to me the answers are right here.
Still trying to save the natives from their ignorance...how totally cool; howver, some of us are just destined for hell.
Look man, I'm sorry. Its not personal, just my assessment of the level of our past exchanges.
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BTW, Moore has the right to his views. He doesn't have the right to call them a documentary, when they are not.
All documentaries frame issues and propagandize a view-point.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 7/7/2004 10:07 AM (GMT -6) | | DLW: you have no need to apologize...I am not offended in the least. I believe much of what I stated before was rhetoric, just as I believe much of what you now state is the same thing. I just find it humorous (I am not sure why) that you took your leave and came back just the same.
As far as Moore is concerned, there if genuine difference. He has stated and is on record stating that his sole reason for making this movie is to oust Bush (you should be very pleased!). His is not a point of view, but a prejudice. There is a tremendous difference. One does not make movies to air pet preeves. Unless you have quite an ego! I would add that even if I agree with Moore I would still want Bush to win. Moore is so blalantly obnxious and so caters to the left and his suprerior feeling of rightness that I would be ashamed to consider myself in his arena. Fortunately no one sees his movies but the converted. God does indeed reign! | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/7/2004 11:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
just as I believe much of what you now state is the same thing. I just find it humorous (I am not sure why) that you took your leave and came back just the same.
Um, most of my remarks on this post have been about why I believe deliberating on politics is a good thing for Christians to do. That isn't really considered rhetoric.
[kidding]Yeah, I tried to search my soul and discover the truth but I just couldn't find my way to your level of enlightenment on things.[/kidding]
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As far as Moore is concerned, there if genuine difference. He has stated and is on record stating that his sole reason for making this movie is to oust Bush (you should be very pleased!). His is not a point of view, but a prejudice. There is a tremendous difference. One does not make movies to air pet preeves. Unless you have quite an ego! I would add that even if I agree with Moore I would still want Bush to win. Moore is so blalantly obnxious and so caters to the left and his suprerior feeling of rightness that I would be ashamed to consider myself in his arena. Fortunately no one sees his movies but the converted. God does indeed reign!
Prejudice:a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
1. I don't think Moore's dislike of Bush as president is based solely on preconceived judgment or opinion. 2. There are grounds to dislike the BushAdmin's presidency. 3 is the most likely possibility with class being the basis for the prejudice.
But Bush did have a life of privilege and get nominated for president based on his name/connections rather than a long-string of lifetime accomplishments.
I don't understand why if you agreed with Moore, you would still want Bush to win. And I know as a matter of fact that people have seen the movie and decided that they were not going to vote for Bush, no matter what.
My Uncle, who has been a faithful moderate Republican primarily for social issues, wrote me the following just yesterday.
I saw this movie last night. Except for him picking on John Ashcroft, I had to agree with Michael Moore. If you wanted to attach "write in John McCain in 04" bumper stickers on your web site, I would gladly print it out and spread the word!
I've also read accounts of people who normally don't get involved with politics getting geared up to vote this fall because of the movie.
Movies are the popular medium. F9-11 is like the first of its kind and, unfortunately, likely to spawn many other propaganda films in the future.
But, hey, lets let the subject drop.
I hope you are well.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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