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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 7/4/2004 7:38 AM (GMT -6) |   | .
Some are quiet because they know they'll get "whacked" if they voice
their views.
POLITICS:
It's a divisive issue -- especially amongst brothers & sisters in Christ who
have differing worldviews regarding what it means -- to use ones vote "lovingly."
It may genuinely surprise a few folks to learn that:
YES, there are Pro-LIFE Democrats; and
YES, there are Republicans who are Christian -- and (for whatever reason) have chosen to end a pregnancy through abortion.
Indeed -- there really are Christians who are both progressive in their political views (advocating for real-life solutions to homelessness, poverty, racism, etc.); AND conservative in their theology.
The two can and do co-exist very nicely.
I "vote my conscience."
Not easy when a person believes in The Sanctity of Life (ALL life!); while
ONE political party supports abortion and
THE OTHER political supports the death penalty.
Can I endorse the plank-by-plank political platform of either
major political party??
In good conscience, I cannot.
Therefore, each time I enter a voting booth to cast my ballot, I feel like I am faced with choosing between -- the lesser of two evils.
(Okay. I made myself vulnerable. Whack me. And then -- listen to the deafening silence that results).
Sahid wrote:
quote:
Why is it that I can talk about any random thing I please and people will discuss with me, but as soon as I talk about anything related to politics or voting no one has anything to say? It's happened a couple times now. You can talk about being loving, but you can't talk about how to use our vote lovingly....
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 7/4/2004 9:34 AM (GMT -6) | | .
"In essentials, unity; In matters of opinion, liberty;
In all things, love."
==============================================================
.
Amen, Brother.
Peace & blessings,
<><
Sahid wrote:
quote:
... open theism is at the root of my political beliefs.
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/4/2004 10:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
Why is it that I can talk about any random thing I please and people will discuss with me, but as soon as I talk about anything related to politics or voting no one has anything to say? It's happened a couple times now. You can talk about being loving, but you can't talk about how to use our vote lovingly. (The notable execption is abortion. Everyone loves to talk about every aspect of abortion.) Maybe I should find a forum specifically on politics, but open theism is at the root of my political beliefs.
Sahid, son, I feel your pain.
Try going back six months or so in the "Let's solve the problem of Evil" thread. I tried to get this forum to deal with political issues for a long time and to not much avail. Most of the time, the only person who would respond was a guy named Honorman who quite often was more rhetoric than reason in his posts.
As I see it, the board leadership wants very much to ensure that OVTheism is as accepted as a valid Evangelical Theology. That has sort of become the raison-d'etre of the board and so its most serious posts revolve around OVTheism and the shenanigans of Piper and the Pipettes. As Tigress posted on "The Cross and the Sword", the directors had in the past expressed a desire that the board be geared toward "pure theology", whatever that means.
I switched to TheologyWeb full-time this past year. In part, because I didn't really have time to post regularly on two boards and because TWeb has (two) political science forums and a lot more people to interact with and a lot more non-Christians who one can witness to through one's posting demeanor.
TWeb, incidentally, has a good number of OVTheists and several debate threads on the subject. The down-side of the site is that its owners and most of its admins are dispensationalists that tolerate certain posters with terrible demeanors because they advance the same ideas as they have.
Are you a student at Baylor University? I have a good friend, John Pisciotta, who is a professor at Baylor and a leader of the pro-life activist group at Baylor as well.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/4/2004 7:38 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Why is it that I can talk about any random thing I please and people will discuss with me, but as soon as I talk about anything related to politics or voting no one has anything to say?
Shhhh! Don't break the silence. I like talking about random things.
Personally, since you are asking everyone, I would have to say that for me I find three things that block me from wanting to discuss politics. First, I don't trust politicians nor political parties. I never know what is the TRUTH in what is said. Second, there is so much gray that I find often times both sides of an argument can be right to some degree. I have found the minute I "think" I have my political view worked out someone throws something out that makes me rethink again. Does this make sense? Third, some issues are WAY too sensitive and passionate for me to discuss -- I have a difficult time remaining loving. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/5/2004 7:45 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Selah
Hi dlw,
Well, I posted to you last night about your comments earlier in this thread, but decided to remove my post because ...let's just say ...it wasn't nicer than God...
thankyou.
quote:
Anyway, now I think I'll just say this... it strikes me as gross when you come on dr. boyd's website with some political agenda, cut him and others down by saying things like "most serious posts revolve around OVTheism and the shenanigans of Piper and the Pipettes" ETC (and then call honorman full of rhetoric!) You spew rhetoric dlw and you seriously lack decorum.
My agenda for coming to Boyd's website was to further the flavor of OVTheism that I had developed while in grad-school that emphasized that politics was part of our free-will autonomy and to get Doc to interact with me to a greater extent than he had previously done. I'm not serving a political party or insisting that people view things politically the same way I do. I'm just stressing that there is a need for greater habits of political deliberation among Christians today.
I am critical primarily of how he treats the topic, but not completely critical. That's not the samething as cutting him down.
I did cut-down Piper et al, but I'd submit that if you had been a graduate of Bethel College who had taken 4 classes from Boyd and become an OVTheist and was getting his PhD at the time when Boyd was under attack by Piper et al and OVTheists were forbidden to become professors at Bethel then you would have a lower view of Piper and the Pipette's shenanigans.
And yes I do use rhetoric and I probably do break with decorum from time to time, my point with Honorman had more to do with the general tendency of his posts to lack much factual/analytical substance, which I have generally tried to include in my posts here.
quote:
Though I know I love you, I'm mad at you!
Pipettes - gee. BE NICE dlw.
I'm sorry man. I always get a crack out of Piper and the Pipettes. My father, a very nice person, himself started calling them "the Borg".
quote:
selah
know what I think? Politics are stupid. There, now come pick on me. Whack me. who cares... temporal eternal temporal eternal temporal...
Politics is inevitable. I personally hate politics and find it disgusting much of the time, but I know professionally how it important it is and because of how I've developed my gifts I find that it is easier for me to analyze and frame political issues than most people and so it seems to be part of my God-given calling to deal with politics. But ultimately we all have to deal with politics, the question is whether we want to try to be more deliberative in how we do it or not.
I remember Boyd saying the same thing about Theology. We are all theologians, the question is whether we want to be good theologians or not.
I think the biggest difference from when I graduated from college and studied under him is that something similar holds for political science, but I don't see him encouraging deliberation on political issues as being a way of glorifying God, lowering barriers to the sharing of the Gospel.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/5/2004 9:16 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Selah
quote:
Originally posted by DLW
...That's not the samething as cutting him down.
ok, you say tomato...
Being critical of someone's beliefs in one area is by no means cutting them down. I think Boyd has a wonderful ministry and is a man of God and a great theologian. I think his Spiritual Warfare Theodicy is too manicheistic and that is why it doesn't deal as well with political-stuff.
quote:
quote:
I did cut-down Piper et al, but I'd submit that if you had been a graduate of Bethel College who had taken 4 classes from Boyd and become an OVTheist and was getting his PhD at the time when Boyd was under attack by Piper et al and OVTheists were forbidden to become professors at Bethel then you would have a lower view of Piper and the Pipette's shenanigans.
I submit that you don't understand where I'm coming from dlw. See, MY view of Piper isn't what is important. God's view is. I don't see how beating a dead horse is loving/helpful/or good for anything. Do you?
I'm not beating a dead horse. I was giving my own characterization of the sorts of issues that prevail at CVM.
quote:
And, I completely disagree with your comment that SERIOUS posts have to do with him and the "Pipette's". That's why I asked you to direct me to such posts.
I've seen a lot of posts/threads that have been about the latest Anti-OVTheism book or the National Association of Evangelical's potential disbanding of Sanders and Pinnocks.
That's what I meant by Piper and the Pipettes. Stuff on the ongoing developments of how OVTheism is received by "Evangelicals".
quote:
I'm not defending either side dlw. I'm just thinking outloud that if you are much happier at TWEB, then why come here? Using names in your posts when those people aren't here to address what's been said just seems unnecessary (especially since people are in process... for all we know they are experiencing transformation as we speak!)
I came back because I'm in transition and I got caught up with certain threads here and was interested in sharing about my experiences with Sahid.
I have nothing against Honorman, personally. But almost all of my exchanges with him were not very stimulating for me. It felt a good deal of the time that he was responding just to respond to me somehow and a good deal of the time he was the only one who responded and so I was relating to Sahid.
If he's been transformed then God bless, but I was just sharing my past experiences.
quote:
quote:
I'm sorry man. I always get a crack out of Piper and the Pipettes. My father, a very nice person, himself started calling them "the Borg".
This may be an area of transformation you might want to explore...
My Father is also a very nice person and HE calls "them" beloved.
That's great.
quote:
quote:
Politics is inevitable. I personally hate politics and find it disgusting much of the time, but I know professionally how it important it is and because of how I've developed my gifts I find that it is easier for me to analyze and frame political issues than most people and so it seems to be part of my God-given calling to deal with politics. But ultimately we all have to deal with politics, the question is whether we want to try to be more deliberative in how we do it or not.
That's cool. If it is your God-given calling, then by all means do it. Also, if it is your God-given calling, then by all means do it in Christ. It is not my God -given calling, for sure.
sure, with my below caveats.
quote:
quote:
I remember Boyd saying the same thing about Theology. We are all theologians, the question is whether we want to be good theologians or not.
Well, technically we are all theologians.
the·o·lo·gi·an n.
One who is learned in theology.
the·ol·o·gy n. pl. the·ol·o·gies
The study of the nature of God and religious truth; rational inquiry into religious questions.
We are not all politicians.
pol·i·ti·cian
n.
1. One who is actively involved in politics, especially party politics. 2. One who holds or seeks a political office.
2. One who seeks personal or partisan gain, often by scheming and maneuvering: “Mothers may still want their favorite sons to grow up to be President, but... they do not want them to become politicians in the process” (John F. Kennedy). 3. One who is skilled or experienced in the science or administration of government.
One does not have to be a politician to be involved with politics.
The Theology:Theologian, Politics:Politician analogy doesn't work.
A better analogy would be Theology:Believer and Politics:Citizen.
quote:
quote:
I think the biggest difference from when I graduated from college and studied under him is that something similar holds for political science, but I don't see him encouraging deliberation on political issues as being a way of glorifying God, lowering barriers to the sharing of the Gospel.
Well, I can't speak for him. Lowering barriers (tearing down walls) sure seems to be his heart though. Maybe he has actual reasons (like impact) for shooting at the targets he does? Maybe you do too. Me too.
And maybe we all see in part as through a mirror darkly and can call upon each other to do things differently if we feel led to do so.
quote:
Ok. Thanks for listening. I think I'm a little sensitive these days (and my son is hogging the video games...)so, what to do...
thanks for speaking in love and not anger.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 7/5/2004 2:28 PM (GMT -6) | | One, historically, Christians have not been very political. Two, many people have limited time and must prioritize. Three, it may be that people are not interested in what you are posting. Four, there may not be as many people posting as we think. There are many reasons why people would not answer, many not political. Five, DLW. Simply because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are posting rhetotic. It may simply be that you don't understand the subject yourself.
It should also be noted that DLW also left because he had a hard time following the rules... | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/5/2004 5:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
We live in a democracy where we are responsible for governing the country and making sure the people are rightly taken care of
Okay, I understand something new (I love the learning that can happen when we open our minds!) Thanks for challenging me, Sahid and DLW. As I reflected on the Old Testament I thought of several times where the people of God had to get involved in order to win their freedom. Many used their leadership for the glory of God. When I reflected on the New Testament again I know that one thing Christ did do was upset some of the cultural laws by allowing women to be places they were not supposed to be -- A non-violent protest so to speak.
I agree that we should not take our right to freedom of speech for granted. The biggest obstacle, however, is how to speak while remaining loving and respecting those who differ. I believe the common theme that has been established on this thread is that we have gifts and some Christians have a greater calling to be involved in politics than others. We are ALL called to follow the Spirit and this would include in how we live in the political system we are a part. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/6/2004 1:09 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
One, historically, Christians have not been very political.
In the medieval ages one of the most controversial but important topics was the relationship between Church and State. Historically, Christian leadership was one of the main checks against secular leadership. Nowadays we have many intermediary institutions between us and the State, but historically in the US churches did play an important role as intermediaries helping people have greater voice in the governance that affected them.
quote:
Two, many people have limited time and must prioritize.
True, and that's why it matters whether religious leaders like Boyd endorse following/deliberating/action on politics as an activity that Christians should engage in or are more milk-toasty.
We are fallible in the priorities we set for our lives.
quote:
Five, DLW. Simply because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are posting rhetotic. It may simply be that you don't understand the subject yourself.
It had nothing to do with whether they disagreed with me. Whether someone posts with actual content or not is not usually something that is open to multiple interpretations. I think I recognize this.
And my point was not to slam Honorman, but to characterize many of our interactions on political threads as not being really much of a debate as I had hoped for.
quote:
It should also be noted that DLW also left because he had a hard time following the rules...
I left because the forum was a bad match for me and the CVM leaders were changing the rules on me.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/6/2004 1:15 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Selah
quote:
And maybe we all see in part as through a mirror darkly and can call upon each other to do things differently if we feel led to do so.
selah:
Yes, if we feel led. I suppose.
And so the question is what do we do when someone else feels led to challenge us on what we feel is our calling or right-teaching/action.
quote:
quote:
thanks for speaking in love and not anger.
selah:
I hope this was not sarcasm. I think I did speak in anger. The fact that I love you completely in Christ may have not come through in my post...sorry.
No, it wasn't sarcasm. The love did come through.
quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All I'm trying to say is that I don't believe politics should be a primary focus for a Christian.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We are called to:
Be sanctified...
Think on what is pure, lovely, good....
Fix our eyes on Jesus...
Love our neighbor...
Work on that plank in our eye...
Clean the inside of the cup - that the outside might become clean as well...
Persevere...
Not be entangled with civilian affairs...
Following politics is part of loving our neighbor. Acting apart from our own interests in politics on the behalf of others is a historically important way that barriers to the sharing of the Gospel or other barriers have been reduced.
quote:
Actually, 2 Timothy 2:4 sums up what I've been trying to say "And as Christ's soldier, do not let yourself become tied up in the affairs of this life, for then you cannot satisfy the one who has enlisted you in his army" Politics (traditionally understood) seems to "tie us up in the affairs of this life" (imho) it shifts our focus off the eternal.
love
selah
It can, but so can posting at discussion-boards or playing on entertainment sets or watching/playing sports or even getting involved in church-politics.
The temptation to get tied up in the affairs of this life is ever present, but it doesn't me we have nothing to do with different affairs of this life.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 7/6/2004 6:12 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by DLW
And so the question is what do we do when someone else feels led to challenge us on what we feel is our calling or right-teaching/action.
selah:
I guess what I would do is weigh the challenge against a number of factors. For one, I'd consider my own history with the person who's challenging me (their credibility with me through time), the current context, purpose of the challenge, and whether or not I (or trusted counselors in my life) thought it was appropriate. Then I'd pray a lot in order to decide if I should take the challenge personally or reject it as something I can't attend to at this time. (After all, if I'm committed to seeking God - and the challenger feels led by God - then surely God will concur :)
quote:
No, it wasn't sarcasm. The love did come through.
selah:
I really appreciate you saying that.
quote:
Following politics is part of loving our neighbor. Acting apart from our own interests in politics on the behalf of others is a historically important way that barriers to the sharing of the Gospel or other barriers have been reduced.
selah:
Ok d, I hear you. Following politics and acting apart from our own interests politically can be ONE way of loving our neighbor. Some are called to love their neighbor that way, some in other ways. When we are asked our political opinion - if we have one and if it would help our neighbor - perhaps we should give it. However, there are many many many many other ways of loving our neighbor. I think our job is to discern the best way to love our neighbor now...and then now...and now. Sometimes, in the now, love looks like picking up a tiny piece of trash off the floor just to spare anyone else the task of bending down to do it themselves. (st therese ;)
quote:
It can, but so can posting at discussion-boards or playing on entertainment sets or watching/playing sports or even getting involved in church-politics.
selah:
NO, NOT the entertainment playing...but I'll give you the other two (don't even go there d)
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud Lee | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/6/2004 7:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Sahid and DLW (and anyone else who is involved in politics), how are you involved and what does being involved in the political system look like in your opinion?
Just curious. Thank you! | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 7/6/2004 7:51 PM (GMT -6) | | (Smile.   ) If thats the way you wish to remember it. Just remember your own words.
Following politics is part of loving your neighbor. Most excellant! | | Back to Top | | |
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