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rsirkel
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   Posted 7/14/2004 11:04 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
“The quality of mercy is not strained;
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blessed;
It blesseth him who gives, and him who takes:
’Tis mightiest in the mightiest: it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown.
It is an attribute of God himself;
And earthly power doth then show likest God’s,
When mercy seasons justice. —
Though justice be thy plea, consider this,
That, in the course of justice, none of us
Should see salvation. We do pray for mercy;
And that same prayer doth teach us all to render
The deeds of mercy.—
Why, all the souls that are, were forfeit once:
And he who might the ‘vantage best have took
Found out the remedy. How would you be,
If He who is the top of judgment should
But judge you as you are?”



Shakespeare
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Mayflower
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   Posted 7/14/2004 11:51 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
.
Amen.

Thank you, Brother...
<><
.
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feelinahole
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   Posted 7/15/2004 9:30 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Micah 6:8. To know mercy we must know God. Without God we cannot be truly merciful, nor know what it truly is. Therefore rather than wonder about mercy (or love), I wonder and seek out God. All things will be straightened out as we grow deeper into who he is and his wonders.
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rsirkel
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   Posted 7/15/2004 10:34 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.


Peace
Ron
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feelinahole
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   Posted 7/15/2004 12:01 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thats certainly right. And that is why we should seek him with our own hearts, "to love God with our whole mind soul and heart," is the greatest commandment. Because it is only in knowing him that we are completed. And this is our duty and what he makes possible. That we may respond to him and know him more and more each day, praise God. God has made it so we can fulfill our duty to him, by opening the door to him. But we must make the choice to walk through that door and continue on the path to him. For we have not been saved to be lazy, but to grow in our knowledge and love of him.
Simply because "he first loved us," doesn't mean we don't have our part in the story (try as some might want it that way).
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rsirkel
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   Posted 7/15/2004 4:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?



Peace
Ron
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feelinahole
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   Posted 7/15/2004 6:59 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't remember anything in what I said that used the word perfect, Ron. Nor did I mention anything about the flesh (or are you afraid you may actually have a responsibility towards God rather than a free ride?). Perhaps you are denying that we have a part to play in our choice towards salvation and "working out our salvation with fear and trembling?" it may be you somehow believe God is everyone and everyone is God, so we don't have to really do anything.

Does the word "work," scare you? It does a lot of Christians. But the Bible is pretty clear that we have a part to play in both our salvation and our growth in God.

It is quite natural when I bring up such issues that people quote such verses. "In the flesh..." does anyone even know what that means...
In the Spirit we still must make choices to grow and follow or not. Your verse has nothing to do with what I am saying.
"We love him because he first loved us." Yes (praise God!), but we must respond with love as well. Or does God make us love him.
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rsirkel
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   Posted 7/16/2004 3:08 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.



The thread was mercy, and was to share with the board the beautiful words testifying to the mercy of God. You brought up works, but if you deem Christ's sacrifice insufficient for your salvation and want to add your own works, go for it. Personally I will trust in Jesus and His life in me to save me to the uttermost. You might call it a free ride I call it the love of God. Your argument is fine, it is just applied in the wrong context.

You are barking up the wrong tree.

Peace
Ron
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/16/2004 6:31 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron, salvation IS that work of God in us, participated within by us with our wills. Salvation is God's saving us. That means that we are changed, no longer enslaved to sin. And it means to that we participate in the glory of God by His Spirit. Scripture says all this.
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feelinahole
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   Posted 7/16/2004 9:08 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron: POW says it well, but let me add a few comments. First, your own words agree with me when you say "I will trust..." which means you must make a choice to trust. Isn't God salvation sufficent so you wouldn't even have to do that?
Second, nowhere in what I wrote did I make any kind of statement that even remotely says that I wish to add to Christ's work. You are truly mistaken.
God makes it possible for us to be saved, but we must respond to the opportunity (as your own words point out).
As far as free rides go, God's love is not one. Those who know God recognize that his love is unlimited towards us, but not unconditional. There is a great difference. God expects things out of those he loves. All people who love greatly do. They expect much so that we will grow much.
If I barking up the wrong tree, its the tree God planted in his scriptures.
My comments have also been about mercy. Simply because I have a different take on it than you do doesn't mean mine isn't in the spirit of the thread.
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/16/2004 9:23 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
That all things pertaining to salvation are accomplished by Christ is not in question -- hopefully. But that Christ accomplishes IN and THROUGH us should not be either.

Notice the STRONG singular affirmation of Christ's work being the sole foundation of our salvation in this: www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3467


Peace, Pow
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rsirkel
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   Posted 7/18/2004 4:38 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
feelinahole
quote:
As far as free rides go, God's love is not one. Those who know God recognize that his love is unlimited towards us, but not unconditional. There is a great difference. God expects things out of those he loves. All people who love greatly do. They expect much so that we will grow much.



Ron's reply:
How could God's love possibly be conditioned by man when God commended his love towards us while we were yet sinners and enemies?
What are you thinking, do you think we make God love us by our decisions?

quote:
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


feelinahole
quote:
God expects things out of those he loves. All people who love greatly do. They expect much so that we will grow much.



Ron's reply:
So, feelinahole, do you produce the fruit God is pleased with or is it Jesus in you to whom belongs the glory?

quote:
2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


quote:
1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.



quote:
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.





quote:
Galatians 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
Galatians 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.


The fair shew in the flesh today may not be circumcision, it could be sectarian doctrinal correctness. But after the resurrection of Jesus the faithfulness of God to covenant is no longer a mystery. It is preached as the good news. Why would you want to preach up man's free will?

Peace
Ron

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/18/2004 4:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron, ever read this: www.philthompson.net/pages/library/riveroffire.html ?
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feelinahole
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   Posted 7/18/2004 6:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I preach man's free will because it is throughout scripture. God praises those who do his will by choice. Free will praises God because it shows how wonderful God is and intelligent God is.
We certainly do condition God's love by our choices, or do you think God is so clueless that he loves the world the same as he loves his children? Do you love your children the same as a stranger.
Just as Jesus loved John special (the disciple whom Jesus loved...why would that be pointed out...didn't Jesus love ALL his disciples?), so we effect God by how much we obey him. "if you love me, keep my commandments. I do not believe God is this senile old grandfather type who loves everybody the same and gives us all candy etc., whether we are good or not just because we "accept" him. WE effect God and his love towards us by what we do, say, how we act towards him and others. To postulate God as otherwise is to render him unfair and unjust, which would make mercy irrelevant. Why do anything for God, good or bad, if we know he'll love us regardless. Sadly, Christians buy into such deception in the name of God's "unconditional love" for them. Such love is certainly not biblical, but rather the pulling out of a few verses and tunneling everything else through them.
It is God working in me that produces the fruit, but I must do the job. Remember God praised Abraham for HIS faith, and it was counted as righteousness. We boast in the Lord, but we do boast.
And Ron, why would you so deny how wonderful and loving God is in allowing you to love him freely, to serve him freely, to be proud of what you do for him freely?
BTW, Ron, great verses. I don't see what they have to do with what I am posting. I agree with all of them.
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Bobber
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   Posted 7/18/2004 8:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't see it as true that God loves us more if we serve him. Not in a real sense. I think he's more pleased with some over others for others cause him joy but that has nothing to do with love. Ive raised three children all pretty well now in the twenties. There were times they did things that didn't please me but I still loved them none the less. Jesus said if you being evil....so if you being evil are like that good orloving to your children how much more loving is God who doesn't even have a sin nature and to whom the Bible says he is love? Blush
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rsirkel
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   Posted 7/19/2004 7:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
POW
I've read it now. Thanks for the link.

feelinahole
I don't deny free will I just think preaching human potential is a poor substitute for the gospel.

bobber
Let's hear it for the (parents) who give witness of a love that is faithful to save in spite of opposition. (Sorry bobber didn't read your profile until now.)

Peace
Ron
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feelinahole
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   Posted 7/19/2004 1:24 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am not preaching human potential, I am preaching biblical revelation. God has always desired the cooperation of man in everything he has done in dealing with us. And he has always desired to praise us for what we accomplish through him. You miss my point.
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/19/2004 1:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by rsirkel

POW
I've read it now. Thanks for the link.


Thanks for the feedback, Ron.
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rsirkel
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   Posted 7/19/2004 5:02 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
feelinahole
quote:
I am not preaching human potential, I am preaching biblical revelation. God has always desired the cooperation of man in everything he has done in dealing with us. And he has always desired to praise us for what we accomplish through him. You miss my point.


Ron
I understand what you are trying to point out, but you are missing the gospel.

quote:
Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Romans 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


Peace
Ron
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feelinahole
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   Posted 7/19/2004 5:33 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
(Eyebrow). Depends on what gospel you are talking about. I think I'll just agree to disagree. Pour each of you a round of mercy. Your choice whether you drink it. Bandit2
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John Earp
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   Posted 7/19/2004 8:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Free will primarily serves to do nothing but condemn us. Free GRACE is that by which we may be drawn to Christ, repent, and believe the gospel. Even the ability to accept the Gospel message is predicated upon the prevenient grace of God by which we are enabled to turn from sin and to God.

The power of freewill saves absolutely no one, and Scripture nowhere indicates that anyone but CHRIST is able to save us. I emphatically believe in free will; however, free will is not my Savior, and cannot be. The power of choice is only sufficient to make us responsible for our actions; but we can never save ourselves by choosing rightly. In ourselves, we can only sin, for as Christ said, "without me you can do nothing."

The Scriptural emphasis is, as Ron so rightly points out, the grace of God working in us to will and to do according to His good pleasure (Phil. 2:13).

By grace are ye saved, through faith. It is not of works, lest any one should boast. Good works flow out of a heart that has been made new by God's gracious empowering presence.

I realize you know these things, feelinahole, I just know from experience that it is all too easy to fall into the trap of making too big a deal out of our ability to choose. It so easily lends itself to the idea of merit.



"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/20/2004 2:03 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John (and others): "I just know from experience that it is all too easy to fall into the trap of making too big a deal out of our ability to choose. It so easily lends itself to the idea of merit."

PoW: I trust that feelinhole does not make that mistake.

Free will is what God uses, once freed, to help us "will and to do" in our working out our own salvation.

We have politicized so much of theological language that we have a difficult time communicating. ANY mention of works (No thanks to Luther's attempt to dump the book of James, and his gall at inserting a word into Romans that Paul didn't write!) automatically gets wrapped up with a bad reading of Galations. Working out our salvation and being transformed by the Spirit in our innermost being and submitting our flesh to the Spirit's healing restoration and liberation from the bondage of sin gets miss-heard as a return to the Pharasaism of trusting our own effort and superficial rules as a replacement for God's work, or even as a club to force God's hand according to our own will. That's the bad fruit of politicising theology!

Feelinhole is not making that mistake.

Neither was Paul saying that to the Galatians!

PoW

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rsirkel
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   Posted 7/20/2004 5:45 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
POW
quote:
We have politicized so much of theological language that we have a difficult time communicating. ANY mention of works (No thanks to Luther's attempt to dump the book of James, and his gall at inserting a word into Romans that Paul didn't write!) automatically gets wrapped up with a bad reading of Galations. Working out our salvation and being transformed by the Spirit in our innermost being and submitting our flesh to the Spirit's healing restoration and liberation from the bondage of sin gets miss-heard as a return to the Pharasaism of trusting our own effort and superficial rules as a replacement for God's work, or even as a club to force God's hand according to our own will. That's the bad fruit of politicising theology!



Ron
Well said. I would agree feelinahole means well and what he says is part of the theological landscape but when it comes to the gospel I think he doesn't see the unveiling of God's faithfulness yet in the good news but like we all have done, is spouting a sectarian doctrine and calling it gospel. I have been guilty of this for 30 years. I didn't realize the error until trust in Jesus was born with the help of the Holy Spirit. Even what I thought was faith in Jesus turned out to be my own subjective activity, always having to be tweaked, and I had misunderstood that it should have been understood in the scriptures as the faithfulness of Jesus that saves. I trust His faithfulness not the activity of my free will. Also when we talk about God working through us I believe self should remain crucified and the life of Jesus bring forth the fruitfulness the Father desires.
That may be hard to conceptualize except in the I am the vine example and man may fear nothing would get done if we wait on the Lord but better Him than me wrecking havoc by free will choices of texts and applying them at my will. That seems to only cause debate but when there is an encounter with Jesus there is shouldn't be any, "well this is my opinion", enough said.

Peace
Ron

Of course I am open to the same charge of spouting sectarian doctrine.
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/20/2004 6:03 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron: That may be hard to conceptualize except in the I am the vine example and man may fear nothing would get done if we wait on the Lord

Cool:

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feelinahole
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   Posted 7/20/2004 9:38 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am so glad Ron thinks I'm well meaning (hopefully God thinks so tooTongue). Thanks, POW for trying to grasp what I am thinking up rather than simply parroting the same 'ole thing over and over (just drop those verses isolated from all these others and, pesto, you have your theology!). No wonder non-Christians have such a hard time dialoging with Christians when there doesn't seem to be a minute particle of openness to many a subject.
John (wheres your new handle), I use to think we were on the same page. Now I realize we are not even reading the same book.
Ron, no hard feelings. You simply do not have a clue as to what I am talking about.
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