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Laplace
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
| Posted 10/12/2004 11:58 AM (GMT -6) |   | I've recently read several articles regarding the question of. "What makes a person beautiful"? Obviously, this was geared more towards women.
Several studies produced a number of hypothesis. One stated that symmetry was a key factor in determining what was beautiful or not. Another was body proportion. And another generalized it saying that when we find someone beautiful, we usually associate it with good health and fertility and thus desireable to bear our offspring.
The Bible states that God does not look at the outward appearance that man looks at but looks at the heart. And there are passages in Scripture that endorse following this practice (such as James).
However, in regards to romantic relationships, there seems to be some confusion. God created the concept of beauty and hormones. And He made it so that emotional responses to appearance can be quite independent of what kind of person that is. No matter what Leah did, Jacob still loved Rachel more.
So how are we to resolve this? Obviously, I doubt few would advocate marrying someone whom you have no attraction to at all. Yet, why is it in the realm of romance that we are to "ignore" looking at the heart and not the outward appearance?
Finally, I think it is fine for one to nurture and develop their own gifts (including beauty) much as we would for humility or gratitude. Yet, why (in the Christian community it seems) is there a tendancy to discourage looks?
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 10/13/2004 5:56 AM (GMT -6) | | I've been harping on this subject forever so you probably already know my opinion.
I think God wants us to give people a chance. I think He wants us to get to know individuals whom we don't initially find physically attractive and through getting to know their great personality, there's a greater possibility for physical attraction to develop.
I read a book by a male Christian author a few years back - I wish I remembered the name, and he said the same thing. He pointed out how Christian guys he spoke with always complained that there were no good Christian girls around to date. And he made the observation that there were lots of really great Christian girls available. It was just that the guys weren't giving them a chance because of how these girls looked.
He did give a great example to counter that thinking, though. He described how there was this one girl who was physically not very good looking at all - she had lots of freckles, red curlyish hair that often hung in an unflattering way, her body type was skinny but in a emaciated-looking way, etc. Yet, this guy said that because of her vibrant, Christian personality, many of the guys in that Christian circle found her really alluring, anyway.
I think Christian guys have a really hard time in our culture with looking at a woman's inward beauty first because the media keeps feeding them with all these messages that they should hold out for a woman of physical beauty first and foremost. The media makes them think that there are so many of them available when the truth is, they're not. What the media presents is only a very tiny fraction of the female population. The rest of us simply don't look that beautiful. And I find it difficult to believe that God would put women in such a horrible position where they really don't stand a chance of finding a man who truly wants her and is truly attracted to her. Women can't help how they look, therefore the only logical conclusion is that it's the men who need to readjust their thinking about the importance of physical beauty in a woman - and once they do, their bodily reactions (getting turned on) to these women will follow suit.
Just as Greg Boyd has preached, once we cooperate with the Holy Spirit to reverse the order the Fall caused from the order of body-mind-spirit to the original perfect creation of spirit-mind-body our spirits will control our minds and our minds will control our bodies. Just as our spirits and minds can control whether or not we give in to sin, our spirits and our minds can control our bodies' response to women who are right for men and men who are right for women.
In the case of Jacob and Rachel, Jacob obviously was sinning and not doing this. Leah didn't deserve to be treated so poorly and Rachel wasn't always such a nice gal, despite her great physical beauty.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/13/2004 6:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
I've been harping on this subject forever so you probably already know my opinion.
I think God wants us to give people a chance. I think He wants us to get to know individuals whom we don't initially find physically attractive and through getting to know their great personality, there's a greater possibility for physical attraction to develop.
I read a book by a male Christian author a few years back - I wish I remembered the name, and he said the same thing. He pointed out how Christian guys he spoke with always complained that there were no good Christian girls around to date. And he made the observation that there were lots of really great Christian girls available. It was just that the guys weren't giving them a chance because of how these girls looked.
He did give a great example to counter that thinking, though. He described how there was this one girl who was physically not very good looking at all - she had lots of freckles, red curlyish hair that often hung in an unflattering way, her body type was skinny but in a emaciated-looking way, etc. Yet, this guy said that because of her vibrant, Christian personality, many of the guys in that Christian circle really found her alluring, anyway.
I think Christian guys have a really hard time in our culture with looking at a woman's inward beauty first because the media keeps feeding them with all these messages that they should hold out for a woman of physical beauty first and foremost. The media makes them think that there are so many of them available when the truth is, they're not. What the media presents is only a very tiny fraction of the female population. The rest of us simply don't look that beautiful. And I find it difficult to believe that God would put women in such a horrible position where they really don't stand a chance of finding a man who truly wants her and is truly attracted to her. Women can't help how they look, therefore the only logical conclusion is that it's the men who need to readjust their thinking about the importance of physical beauty in a woman - and once they do, their bodily reactions (getting turned on) to these women will follow suit.
Just as Greg Boyd has preached, once we cooperate with the Holy Spirit to reverse the order the Fall caused from the order of body-mind-spirit to the original perfect creation of spirit-mind-body our spirits will control our minds and our minds will control our bodies. Just as our spirits and minds can control whether or not we give in to sin, our spirits and our minds can control our bodies response to women who are right for men and men who are right for women.
In the case of Jacob and Rachel, Jacob obviously was sinning and not doing this. Leah didn't deserve to be treated so poorly and Rachel wasn't always such a nice gal, despite her great beauty.
Amen, Tigress.
There is might that is said in the Bible concerning beauty in the context of "temptation." Sin that we consider ugly and repulsive seldom entices us. The "ideal wife" of Proverbs 31 says little about beauty except:
Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain,
But a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised.
Give her the product of her hands,
And let her works praise her in the gates.
Spen Lake
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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 10/13/2004 2:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Laplace,
quote:
The passage in Proverbs 31 speaks about beauty being fleeting and charm deceptive, yet are we saying then that we should date/marry those we don't find physically attractive even if they have the other fine qualities listed?
It just seems a bit strange that God designed us (men at least) to be so visually orientated in terms of romance and at the same time says that it's the least important of the traits to be concerned with.
I would say that God intended us to be attracted to physical beauty. One might speculate, though, that even our appearance has been negatively affected by the Fall. Just a thought. If that's so, then now that we're on the other side of the Fall, we deal with genes that tend to make us fat, get acne, etc.
But we also have to deal with the real objectives of marriage. And that's where Proverbs comes in. It is warning us that the conditions that make for a happy marriage are such that godliness trumps beauty. Had the Fall not occurred, this choice (godliness over beauty) might not have been necessary (at least not to the same degree) - for surely there are mutations that have adversely affected our appearance.
But again, I'm just speculating - but it does resolve your dilemma, if true. For, in that case, God would not have ORIGINALLY INTENDED the conflict in interests (beauty vs. character) that you are talking about.
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 10/15/2004 4:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
Laplace,
quote:
The passage in Proverbs 31 speaks about beauty being fleeting and charm deceptive, yet are we saying then that we should date/marry those we don't find physically attractive even if they have the other fine qualities listed?
It just seems a bit strange that God designed us (men at least) to be so visually orientated in terms of romance and at the same time says that it's the least important of the traits to be concerned with.
I would say that God intended us to be attracted to physical beauty. One might speculate, though, that even our appearance has been negatively affected by the Fall. Just a thought. If that's so, then now that we're on the other side of the Fall, we deal with genes that tend to make us fat, get acne, etc.
But we also have to deal with the real objectives of marriage. And that's where Proverbs comes in. It is warning us that the conditions that make for a happy marriage are such that godliness trumps beauty. Had the Fall not occurred, this choice (godliness over beauty) might not have been necessary (at least not to the same degree) - for surely there are mutations that have adversely affected our appearance.
But again, I'm just speculating - but it does resolve your dilemma, if true. For, in that case, God would not have ORIGINALLY INTENDED the conflict in interests (beauty vs. character) that you are talking about.
Most people don't look that hideous and I think they simply look the way God wants them to look (excluding acne, overweight, etc.) I think the Fall has simply corrupted people's idea of what true beauty is. For instance throughout history, men have found certain things attractive in women that God never intended them to find attractive - like foot-binding in Asia where the girls' feet were bound from birth so that when they were adults their feet were small and deformed. Also, the wearing of tight corsets in the 18th and 19th centuries so that women's waists were only 5 inches and their inner organs and ribs were deformed because of it. Or the practice of body mutilation in tribal cultures like in South America where the women stretch out their lower lips to huge proportions, or the African tribes where women stretch their earlobes the same way, or extend their necks with all those metal bands.
Even today in our culture men are still attracted to women who mutilate themselves with tattoos and breast implants and plastic surgery, and the women are expected by men to be too skinny even though it's only natural for women to put on a few pounds with age. Men need to stop expecting women to drastically alter and mutilate themselves in order to please them. It's totally sinful!
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
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Laplace
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
| Posted 10/15/2004 6:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Tigress,
In response you your last post, I wanted to ask you what you thought about a woman (or man) trying to "enhance" her appearance if she knows that's is what is appealing to men in her culture.
For example, is it "vain" for woman to shave her legs? Or what about dying her hair. She obviously is trying to change her appearance from what she was naturally born with (in the same way as breast implants). What about high heels and makeup? These obviously go beyond just hygenic purposes.
I do believe that both sexes are to blame in part for these unreasonable standards for beauty. Men insist on women who look like supermodels. And women in turn feel that appearance is the only way to attract a guy and neglect the other inner virtues.
Yet, in our culture anyway, often dating choices are made for other external reasons (interests, appearances, money, etc). The days of arranged marriages (where appearance was not as high on the checklist) are long gone.
I'm trying to imagine what it'd be like if the Christian community as a whole tried to tell its congregations: Men, looks comes second to godliness. And women, stop trying to make yourselves more beautiful. Would such an arrangement work and provide happy, godly married couples?
The only difference I can see between a good friendship and married relationship between a man and woman is the sexual aspect (also children). Tigress seems to believe that "friends first" will eventually develop the "zing" given enough time. I can tell you it won't always be the case (one may feel that way, but the other may not). As Harry said to Sally, "Sex always gets in the way".
In conclusion, perhaps the Fall did change our perceptions and emphasis on beauty (including the need for clothes). But it seems to bring people together and to have a healthy marriage, Eros needs to be part of that. And the problem is (for guys anyway), it is triggered primarily by appearance. Can that response be changed? Perhaps. But I'm at a loss for doing that practically.
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 10/15/2004 8:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laplace
Tigress,
In response you your last post, I wanted to ask you what you thought about a woman (or man) trying to "enhance" her appearance if she knows that's is what is appealing to men in her culture.
For example, is it "vain" for woman to shave her legs? Or what about dying her hair. She obviously is trying to change her appearance from what she was naturally born with (in the same way as breast implants). What about high heels and makeup? These obviously go beyond just hygenic purposes.
I do believe that both sexes are to blame in part for these unreasonable standards for beauty. Men insist on women who look like supermodels. And women in turn feel that appearance is the only way to attract a guy and neglect the other inner virtues.
Yet, in our culture anyway, often dating choices are made for other external reasons (interests, appearances, money, etc). The days of arranged marriages (where appearance was not as high on the checklist) are long gone.
I'm trying to imagine what it'd be like if the Christian community as a whole tried to tell its congregations: Men, looks comes second to godliness. And women, stop trying to make yourselves more beautiful. Would such an arrangement work and provide happy, godly married couples?
The only difference I can see between a good friendship and married relationship between a man and woman is the sexual aspect (also children). Tigress seems to believe that "friends first" will eventually develop the "zing" given enough time. I can tell you it won't always be the case (one may feel that way, but the other may not). As Harry said to Sally, "Sex always gets in the way".
In conclusion, perhaps the Fall did change our perceptions and emphasis on beauty (including the need for clothes). But it seems to bring people together and to have a healthy marriage, Eros needs to be part of that. And the problem is (for guys anyway), it is triggered primarily by appearance. Can that response be changed? Perhaps. But I'm at a loss for doing that practically.
In response:
Yes, I do think it's wrong for women to have to do those things and it really ticks me off that we have to. I mean, I can't even go outside in shorts in hot weather unless I shave me legs. And if I don't have time to shave my legs in the morning I just have to wear pants and feel hot (temperature-wise).
For the longest time I refused to wear any make up except Cover-up to cover red pimples. But, now I'm 30 and still not married so now I've given in a bit and when I go out socially I wear make up, sometimes. But I shouldn't have to. Most guys don't even give me a second glance even with the make up. What the heck am I supposed to do?! It's not fair!
I think it's downright wrong to dye hair and get implants and plastic surgery (unless one is in a car accident or something that deforms their face). I don't ever wear high heels either. I absolutely loathe them. Those deform women's bodies, too by causing back and leg problems and vericose veins. They ironically cause ugliness to occur while at the same time trying to make women look more beautiful.
If a guy can't accept me for who I am, he's definitely not a man of God!
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 10/15/2004 10:48 AM (GMT -6) | | In the Song of Solomon and in the Book of Revelation, the idea of a "bride ADORNED for her husband" is specifically held up as a good thing.
I happen to think my wife's beautiful even when she doesn't think she is; however, I think I speak for most normal men (yes, even Christian men) when I say that when my wife fixes herself up for me, I find my feelings of attraction and appreciation for her only increase (not to mention the fact that it makes me feel that she really loves me and wants to please me, as I her). Sugar's always sweeter than vinegar.
How would the ladies feel if their significant other didn't care how he looked? Most of us guys don't "fix up" (wear decent clothes, shave, brush our teeth, comb our hair, pick what kind of car we will drive, etc.) because it's something we necessarily enjoy (well, except for the car), either; we do it to to be attractive to the ladies and to out-do all the other guys. We're hard-wired that way, not unlike the way a rooster struts around the yard and preens himself, just to impress the chicks. 
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 10/15/2004 11:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laplace
I've recently read several articles regarding the question of. "What makes a person beautiful"? Obviously, this was geared more towards women.
Several studies produced a number of hypothesis. One stated that symmetry was a key factor in determining what was beautiful or not. Another was body proportion. And another generalized it saying that when we find someone beautiful, we usually associate it with good health and fertility and thus desireable to bear our offspring.
The Bible states that God does not look at the outward appearance that man looks at but looks at the heart. And there are passages in Scripture that endorse following this practice (such as James).
However, in regards to romantic relationships, there seems to be some confusion. God created the concept of beauty and hormones. And He made it so that emotional responses to appearance can be quite independent of what kind of person that is. No matter what Leah did, Jacob still loved Rachel more.
So how are we to resolve this? Obviously, I doubt few would advocate marrying someone whom you have no attraction to at all. Yet, why is it in the realm of romance that we are to "ignore" looking at the heart and not the outward appearance?
Finally, I think it is fine for one to nurture and develop their own gifts (including beauty) much as we would for humility or gratitude. Yet, why (in the Christian community it seems) is there a tendancy to discourage looks?
Hello Laplace,
To answer your question I think it would be helpful if we differentiated between the natural loves and agape love. All three of the natural loves ("storge" (affection, especially within families), "philia" (friendship), and "eros" (love between sexes) are secondary loves that can become a form of idolatry and dangerous when elevated to an equal ranking of agape love. The natural loves are often subject to perversion, for instance self-centeredness. Agape elevates the natural loves (or need loves) above their self-centeredness that can be associated with costs of particular attachments, including beauty. In the case of romancing a beautiful looking woman, we would be talking about the complicated natural love of eros. Eros has been historically mistaken as a form of god like transcendence or erotic transcendentalism. Eros can be mistaken for an overwhelming life force. Don’t be deceived, the voice of eros is not the voice of God Himself. It is through our imagination, dreams and longing of the heart that we find eros so often attaching its self, a longing of the heart that ultimately can only be filled by our unity with the Godhead. To preserve natural loves from going sour, we need to stay rooted and grounded in agape love. It is the Triune love of the Godhead that encompasses all other loves. It is by His love we should be known by and it is by this same love that we should be drawn towards others. We should recognize the beauty in people by their outward appearance manifested through their fruits of love.
People can only strive to be godlier but the truth is we are merely human. It is only natural to be attracted to a beautiful woman. But at the same time we can not let that attraction run away uncontrollably. This uncontrollability is what I feel our society promotes by exploiting woman. I think it’s a woman’s responsibility to take good care of her self in regards to hygiene, diet and overall appearance. But somewhere we have to have a balance between breast implants and washing behind the ears.
Friendships (philia) are usually between the same sexes, in most cases friendship would not be a common ingredient that would likely lead to eros. I think it would be much more likely that storge (affection) would be the common ingredient found in all natural loves.
The safe bet is to keep all that we hold dear to us in its proper place and perspective. Not to get life from any of the natural loves or temporal pleasures of this world, but to get life from Christ. Physical beauty is temporal and is subject to decay with age. Superficial love will always struggle to enjoy the fruits of mature love that comes through God.
So that’s enough ring around the rosy. To answer your question, frankly I don’t know why God made some woman so beautifully attractive, temptation maybe. The forbidden fruit might have looked awfully good to Eve too. Many like King David have fallen victim to the temptation of a beautiful woman. I’ll go with temptation bro.
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 10/15/2004 11:27 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
I think God hard-wires men to be attracted to women so that he doesn't have to keep reminding people to "be fruitful and multiply."
I afraid man’s appetite  for being fruitful wouldn’t be in much jeopardy if the entire world was full of woman with three teeth and a mustache. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 10/15/2004 12:02 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 10/15/2004 1:36 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Speak for yourself, bub.
Sure easy for you to say, now that you’ve already been spoiled by your beautiful wife. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 10/15/2004 2:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Speak for yourself, bub.
Sure easy for you to say, now that you’ve already been spoiled by your beautiful wife.
LOL. Actually, I've never been attracted to unattractive women.  Is that even possible?
Yea it’s funny how God gives us such an array of incomparable choices. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 10/15/2004 2:16 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 10/15/2004 4:54 PM (GMT -6) | | Tigress,
quote:
Most people don't look that hideous and I think they simply look the way God wants them to look (excluding acne, overweight, etc.) I think the Fall has simply corrupted people's idea of what true beauty is.
That's a good point, too. The point is, there may be some degree to which the Fall has emphasized the conflict of interest. And it's that conflict that Laplace was trying to resolve, I think. And lest you think I'm unreasonable, my son has acne, my wife doesn't shave her legs regularly, and I'm no Marlboro man.
I think the sensitivity to appearance varies from person to person as do most sensitivities. I think the differences between John, Spark, and I demonstrate that. What is NOT particularly relativistic is the qualities in a woman that make for a good wife!!!!! And that's what Proverbs is arguing.
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 10/19/2004 7:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
In the Song of Solomon and in the Book of Revelation, the idea of a "bride ADORNED for her husband" is specifically held up as a good thing.
I happen to think my wife's beautiful even when she doesn't think she is; however, I think I speak for most normal men (yes, even Christian men) when I say that when my wife fixes herself up for me, I find my feelings of attraction and appreciation for her only increase (not to mention the fact that it makes me feel that she really loves me and wants to please me, as I her). Sugar's always sweeter than vinegar.
How would the ladies feel if their significant other didn't care how he looked? Most of us guys don't "fix up" (wear decent clothes, shave, brush our teeth, comb our hair, pick what kind of car we will drive, etc.) because it's something we necessarily enjoy (well, except for the car), either; we do it to to be attractive to the ladies and to out-do all the other guys. We're hard-wired that way, not unlike the way a rooster struts around the yard and preens himself, just to impress the chicks.
Brushing teeth is for health in addition to attractiveness, so doing that is mandatory for both sexes. Brushing hair is about good hygiene as well as not looking like a lunatic, in addition to looking attractive. I'll give ya shaving though, because a lot of guys simply look crappy with facial hair and there's really no other reason for shaving than aestetics. But, clothes and cars are only superficial things that a decent Christian woman could care less about - or at least I could care less about them - unless his clothes make him look like a geek or a clown or something.
I guess I'm trying to say that what I hear when men say they prefer their women to dress up and wear make-up, is conditional love. I wasn't born with make-up on. I shouldn't have to wear it just to be accepted by a potential husband. If I and all women am not considered beautiful by men naturally, without make-up, then it's the men who are flawed in their concept of beauty - our natural beauty is not flawed. God made us the way we are and HE thinks we're beautiful that way, so God's male children should also find God's female children just as beautiful as well.
Personally I think it's an insult to God to expect women to apply make-up because it's like saying God did a lousy job with women's looks. I highly doubt we'd look much different even if the Fall hadn't happened. And even if we did, what I said above still applies - God finds us beautiful so his male children should think no less of us.
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
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JEE
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Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 10/19/2004 11:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
Brushing teeth is for health in addition to attractiveness, so doing that is mandatory for both sexes. Brushing hair is about good hygiene as well as not looking like a lunatic, in addition to looking attractive. I'll give ya shaving though, because a lot of guys simply look crappy with facial hair and there's really no other reason for shaving than aestetics. But, clothes and cars are only superficial things that a decent Christian woman could care less about - or at least I could care less about them - unless his clothes make him look like a geek or a clown or something.
So with no outward "worldly" standards for guys, you should have no problem finding one.
quote:
I guess I'm trying to say that what I hear when men say they prefer their women to dress up and wear make-up, is conditional love.
Hmmm. I guess it's more the feeling of being appreciated by someone enough for them to want look their best for us (which really goes both ways--Respectfully, Tigress, I sincerely doubt your claim that outward appearance doesn't really matter to you, for if you really don't have any outward standards to go by, you would find plenty of guys to fit into that (all-inclusive) category).
quote:
I wasn't born with make-up on. I shouldn't have to wear it just to be accepted by a potential husband.
I assume you weren't born with clothes on, either.
It's not about acceptance (I accept and love my wife even when she isn't fixed up)--it's about appreciating someone enough to want to look one's best for them. Do you think the Church shouldn't "adorn herself" spiritually to please her divine husband?
quote:
Personally I think it's an insult to God to expect women to apply make-up because it's like saying God did a lousy job with women's looks. I highly doubt we'd look much different even if the Fall hadn't happened. And even if we did, what I said above still applies - God finds us beautiful so his male children should think no less of us.
I'm sure the Amish, Mennonites, Hutterites, and other "plain dress" groups would agree with you. However, it is not clear to me how you are not in fact being inconsistent in recognizing that, say, shaving is a good idea for men to do (because they generally LOOK better), but that women should just default to the lowest common denominator because it's "an insult to God" to say the natural look isn't enough. It seems to me that, by it's own definition, your point of view insults God's wisdom in giving facial hair to men.
In Charity,
John
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Tigress
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| Posted 10/19/2004 11:50 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
Brushing teeth is for health in addition to attractiveness, so doing that is mandatory for both sexes. Brushing hair is about good hygiene as well as not looking like a lunatic, in addition to looking attractive. I'll give ya shaving though, because a lot of guys simply look crappy with facial hair and there's really no other reason for shaving than aestetics. But, clothes and cars are only superficial things that a decent Christian woman could care less about - or at least I could care less about them - unless his clothes make him look like a geek or a clown or something.
So with no outward "worldly" standards for guys, you should have no problem finding one.
quote:
I guess I'm trying to say that what I hear when men say they prefer their women to dress up and wear make-up, is conditional love.
Hmmm. I guess it's more the feeling of being appreciated by someone enough for them to want look their best for us (which really goes both ways--Respectfully, Tigress, I sincerely doubt your claim that outwards appearance doesn't really matter to you, for if you really don't have any outward standards to go by, you would find plenty of guys to fit into that (all-inclusive) category).
quote:
I wasn't born with make-up on. I shouldn't have to wear it just to be accepted by a potential husband.
I assume you weren't born with clothes on, either.
It's not about acceptance (I accept and love my wife even when she isn't fixed up)--it's about appreciating someone enough to want to look one's best for them. Do you think the Church shouldn't "adorn herself" spiritually to please her divine husband?
quote:
Personally I think it's an insult to God to expect women to apply make-up because it's like saying God did a lousy job with women's looks. I highly doubt we'd look much different even if the Fall hadn't happened. And even if we did, what I said above still applies - God finds us beautiful so his male children should think no less of us.
I'm sure the Amish, Mennonites, Hutterites, and other "plain dress" groups would agree with you. However, it is not clear to me how you are not in fact being inconsistent in recognizing that, say, shaving is a good idea for men to do (because they generally LOOK better), but that women should just default to the lowest common denominator because it's "an insult to God" to say the natural look isn't enough. It seems to me that, by it's own definition, your point of view insults God's wisdom in giving facial hair to men.
In Charity,
John
Aha! I knew someone would argue that! But hair is different from skin. Hair is meant to be managed and styled, while skin is meant to be left alone! All head hair has to be styled somehow in order to not look ridiculous so of course the same goes for facial hair.
And the argument that we weren't born with clothes on doesn't pass muster either because I'd be perfectly fine with all of us running around naked if lust didn't exist, but the fact is, it does so we must wear body coverings for modesty's sake.
Finally, most women have long hair, again because most men prefer that, and long hair takes a lot longer to style than short hair - once again putting unfair pressure on women to work harder to please men. If men had to go to as much trouble as women have to to look nice I wouldn't be making such a big deal about this but the fact of the matter is women have to take at least twice as long to look nice for men as men do for women. And men are so much more judgemental of women's appearance than women are of men, so to me it's really obvious that men are the ones committing the sin of judging based on outward appearance and not on the heart when God clearly said in His Word that all people are only to judge based on the heart and not on outward appearance.
It's simply a worldly, Satanic idea that a woman trying to go to that much trouble to look good for her man is such a great way to show that she cares for him. She should only be expected to be clean and have kempt hair - just like that's all men have to do. She shouldn't be expected to take forever to do her hair up in all sorts of elaborate styles or even not-so-elaborate ones that still take forever depending on her hair type, and to take forever putting on make-up and spending all sorts of money on same.
It's ironic that men always complain about how long it takes women to get ready when if the women didn't, then the men would complain that they don't look nice for them.
It's ironic that men complain that women are being vain by taking forever to look nice for men, when that's exactly what men expect them to do in the first place.
What a bunch of impossible-to-satisfy hypocrites!
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
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