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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/7/2004 7:15 PM (GMT -6) |   | This is just me, OK? Been here for a while. Learning a lot. Loving the interraction (some of it). I know we've discussed how the board has changed over time and what we'd like to see for the future. I remember Greg coming on a few months ago and telling us that the site was pretty close to being shut down because it had served it's purpose. Then several folks met him in Indiana and encouraged him to keep it going. Not wrong to do. Good to do.
But where are we today? This is just me talking, OK?
I'm tired of arguing with determinists over and over and over again about the same friggin thing. God knows there's a need for a place where people can come and punch it out over determinism/indeterminism, compatability/incompatability, libertarian frew will/whatever else, open future/settled future, monergism/synergism, blah blah blah. I'm sorry to be down on it all folks, but what I need is a place where I can go and discuss the implications of and issues related to the open view. I wanna hang with folks who share an open worldview and wrestle with the implications. I don't wanna be in the middle of a converstaion about the implications of some point of the open view only to have somebody walk into the convo and wanna argue about whether LFW is really coherent or not, or tell me that my theology is all about inflating man's ego.
You determinists out there, I respect your views and love you in Christ. God bless ya one and all. I'm just worn out from ya. Not worn out from taking time to talk on a board about what concerns me. Worn out from talking on the board about what I know isn't gonna change me or you in a thousand years. Come on. Let's admit it. Be honest. 99% of our rangling has zero to do with really wanting to learn about the other person's views and has zero chance of changing either of us. Been there. Done that. We're familiar enough with each other's positions to know there ain't a chance we're crossing over. So let's just leave it at that, shall we? I mean, what's wrong with just leaving it there? Gosh you guys have worn me out. Sorry. But that's where I am.
Look, can we redesign the whole page layout so that three or four categories can be reserved for "whosoever will" can jump into and mudwrestle over these issues? Beat your brains out. It's a necessary thing to do FOR A WHILE. I did it. But gosh I don't wannt keep running into it. It wears on ya.
Can we design a few other rooms for confirmed, dyed-in-the-wool open theists who wanna talk over family issues without having to defend their shared assumptions on every page to people who wanna debate them? If that won't work, then I think what may happen is those who are tired of the constant conflict and who want to discuss their views without having to defend shared beliefs (i.e., the open view) every five minutes will find or create some other way to do so.
I think the board has hit the wall, or maybe I'VE hit the wall, and served its purpose. That's not to say some good things ain't happnin. They are. And I love it. I'm just needing something different and it can't be gotten here on the board as it stands.
Anybody else feeling what I'm feeling?
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 12/7/2004 9:57 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
This is just me, OK? Been here for a while. Learning a lot. Loving the interraction (some of it). I know we've discussed how the board has changed over time and what we'd like to see for the future. I remember Greg coming on a few months ago and telling us that the site was pretty close to being shut down because it had served it's purpose. Then several folks met him in Indiana and encouraged him to keep it going. Not wrong to do. Good to do.
But where are we today? This is just me talking, OK?
I'm tired of arguing with determinists over and over and over again about the same friggin thing. God knows there's a need for a place where people can come and punch it out over determinism/indeterminism, compatability/incompatability, libertarian frew will/whatever else, open future/settled future, monergism/synergism, blah blah blah. I'm sorry to be down on it all folks, but what I need is a place where I can go and discuss the implications of and issues related to the open view. I wanna hang with folks who share an open worldview and wrestle with the implications. I don't wanna be in the middle of a converstaion about the implications of some point of the open view only to have somebody walk into the convo and wanna argue about whether LFW is really coherent or not, or tell me that my theology is all about inflating man's ego.
You determinists out there, I respect your views and love you in Christ. God bless ya one and all. I'm just worn out from ya. Not worn out from taking time to talk on a board about what concerns me. Worn out from talking on the board about what I know isn't gonna change me or you in a thousand years. Come on. Let's admit it. Be honest. 99% of our rangling has zero to do with really wanting to learn about the other person's views and has zero chance of changing either of us. Been there. Done that. We're familiar enough with each other's positions to know there ain't a chance we're crossing over. So let's just leave it at that, shall we? I mean, what's wrong with just leaving it there? Gosh you guys have worn me out. Sorry. But that's where I am.
Look, can we redesign the whole page layout so that three or four categories can be reserved for "whosoever will" can jump into and mudwrestle over these issues? Beat your brains out. It's a necessary thing to do FOR A WHILE. I did it. But gosh I don't wannt keep running into it. It wears on ya.
Can we design a few other rooms for confirmed, dyed-in-the-wool open theists who wanna talk over family issues without having to defend their shared assumptions on every page to people who wanna debate them? If that won't work, then I think what may happen is those who are tired of the constant conflict and who want to discuss their views without having to defend shared beliefs (i.e., the open view) every five minutes will find or create some other way to do so.
I think the board has hit the wall, or maybe I'VE hit the wall, and served its purpose. That's not to say some good things ain't happnin. They are. And I love it. I'm just needing something different and it can't be gotten here on the board as it stands.
Anybody else feeling what I'm feeling?
Tom
 I just wrote this long, encouraging reply, then realized that I hadn't logged in...and lost it! So, I'll condense it...
Tom, just two years ago, I was a determinist, and thanks to a persistent open theist (the only one I know in person) Here I am! We had lengthy discussions, and I probably looked at him like he was from outer space, but what a difference it made in my life, in my walk, in the way I view the Father, and prayer, and evil, and in the way I minister and pray...
I am thankful for the board. I know that it must get weary...discussing with people who seem set in their views, especially when you know what a difference this would make. But you never know whose lives you may be touching here, and the impact that that will have. I am grateful for the board. I could never talk about open theism in my church. I've tried a little in the past, and have gotten some stern, suprised, mildly angry responses, and came perilously close to being branded a heritic...even labelled "wacked" by my closest family member! So, this is a safe place, and a very encouraging one at that.
I've appreciated your insights on the board.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/8/2004 1:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks Jo-Anne. Appreciate that. There should always be a place where people who are truly interested in learning and considering the issues can come and talk. But not all are interested in that. Some really are quite satisfied with their system (you weren't obviously), and that's OK. I just don't want to argue with them about it anymore, and I want a place where I can go and talk with likeminded folk about issues.
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/8/2004 1:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika? I just KNOW you have something to say.
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 12/8/2004 2:58 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
You came to attack but have modified your approach and several of us have noted and appreciate your maturity and ability to change.
But when three [deleted] all show up at once (bopeep, moronforever, analshaf) and they know each other, you know a coordinated attack was planned and launched solely for malicious reasons.
They have no wish to dialogue, only attack a view they know nothing about.
Laika,
I think that if someone "comes to attack" with some level of love for the truth and is willing to listen to the other party, there is room to grow. What "malice" could there really be? My reasons for coming on this site were primarily because a dear friend of mine joined Dr. Boyd's church and I was interested in what Dr. Boyd was teaching and concerned for him. What better way to learn? I acknowledge that I entered aggressively, but that is not the same as maliciously. I slapped and was slapped in return, but this is not malicious on either side. Even hostility to ideas (which may not be truth) is not "malice." Hostility to people and the desire to harm people is malice. Even more, I can harm people when I teach and support defective ideas with all love and sincerity. No malice, but there may be harm.
I don't think even a coordinated aggressive challenge cannot automatically be called malicious. (I haven't even followed the threads that you reference because I don't care too much - I am not just grinding my ax on this one.) I am sure that you have responded to the arguments with a coordinated defense of the ideas that you considered to be defendable. Perhaps it is an honor that there would be people willing to invest the time and effort to interact?
I do think, however, that you and Tom have a point that needs addressing. It seems to me that there are recent discussions that degenerate into a very anal phase with neither side making any progress with the same issue being restated for pages on end. This would be extremely frustrating and wearing. It isn't wearing by sake of cogent argument demonstrating unknown weaknesses in a system but more like the widow who determined to simply pester the judge into action. I recommend that you simply let the other party have the last word and agree to disagree. Their arguments are visible and readable to all and carry no more weight than they do. Failure to respond doea not mean "losing." If they insist on pushing past this point, they are simply being rude and disrespectful, which is improper for those that consider themselves Christians. I think that it would be proper to appeal to this.
I believe that I have learned much on this site and am grateful for it. I may not have become an OVer, but I am learning to disagree with more life/love than I have before. It isn't just a matter of finding "self-control" but I simply feel more life/love and it just comes out different. Perhaps the gospel is at work even in me? I also suppose it could be that this is what 800+ posts does to one, but thank you to those that have helped me.
Spen Lake
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 12/8/2004 5:27 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by Laika
You came to attack but have modified your approach and several of us have noted and appreciate your maturity and ability to change.
But when three [deleted] all show up at once (bopeep, moronforever, analshaf) and they know each other, you know a coordinated attack was planned and launched solely for malicious reasons.
They have no wish to dialogue, only attack a view they know nothing about.
Laika,
I think that if someone "comes to attack" with some level of love for the truth and is willing to listen to the other party, there is room to grow. What "malice" could there really be? My reasons for coming on this site were primarily because a dear friend of mine joined Dr. Boyd's church and I was interested in what Dr. Boyd was teaching and concerned for him. What better way to learn? I acknowledge that I entered aggressively, but that is not the same as maliciously. I slapped and was slapped in return, but this is not malicious on either side. Even hostility to ideas (which may not be truth) is not "malice." Hostility to people and the desire to harm people is malice. Even more, I can harm people when I teach and support defective ideas with all love and sincerity. No malice, but there may be harm.
I don't think even a coordinated aggressive challenge cannot automatically be called malicious. (I haven't even followed the threads that you reference because I don't care too much - I am not just grinding my ax on this one.) I am sure that you have responded to the arguments with a coordinated defense of the ideas that you considered to be defendable. Perhaps it is an honor that there would be people willing to invest the time and effort to interact?
I do think, however, that you and Tom have a point that needs addressing. It seems to me that there are recent discussions that degenerate into a very anal phase with neither side making any progress with the same issue being restated for pages on end. This would be extremely frustrating and wearing. It isn't wearing by sake of cogent argument demonstrating unknown weaknesses in a system but more like the widow who determined to simply pester the judge into action. I recommend that you simply let the other party have the last word and agree to disagree. Their arguments are visible and readable to all and carry no more weight than they do. Failure to respond doea not mean "losing." If they insist on pushing past this point, they are simply being rude and disrespectful, which is improper for those that consider themselves Christians. I think that it would be proper to appeal to this.
I believe that I have learned much on this site and am grateful for it. I may not have become an OVer, but I am learning to disagree with more life/love than I have before. It isn't just a matter of finding "self-control" but I simply feel more life/love and it just comes out different. Perhaps the gospel is at work even in me? I also suppose it could be that this is what 800+ posts does to one, but thank you to those that have helped me.
Spen,
I've seen what I thought was a change in how you post, and how you respond, but then I thought that perhaps I never really "knew" you to begin with, if you know what I mean. I know that being part of this board has helped me grow, and especially to be more gracious. It has helped me deal with people's ideas, without having to defend mine to the death. I respect those who are determinists, because I was a determinist not-so-very-long ago. Not only was I a determinist, but I was a loving Christian, who cared about lost people. I was "raised" Southern Baptist, and have a deep appreciation for those roots (oops, my roots are showing again!).
T.G.B. Isn't it possible to begin a thread that is specifically for O.V.ers? Perhaps that is naive. We all grow weary. I know there were threads that made me feel weary, and I needed to retreat for awhile. I went through a time of personal growth this summer, and am enjoying getting back into the board a bit more. I start university in January though, so we'll see how much time I have then! 
I have seen more graciousness on this board then I've seen in most churches. I do miss Dr Boyd's involvement. It was an honor to meet him and his wife, and to see what humble people they were, and how passionate they are about the Father.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 12/8/2004 12:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Amen.
quote:
I'm with you Tom
Blessings, bro --- Ross
<><
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 12/8/2004 9:21 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 12/9/2004 7:24 AM (GMT -6) | | .Tom wrote:
quote:
This is just me, OK? Been here for a while. Learning a lot. Loving the interraction (some of it). I know we've discussed how the board has changed over time and what we'd like to see for the future. I remember Greg coming on a few months ago and telling us that the site was pretty close to being shut down because it had served it's purpose. Then several folks met him in Indiana and encouraged him to keep it going. Not wrong to do. Good to do.
But where are we today? This is just me talking, OK?
I'm tired of arguing with determinists over and over and over again about the same friggin thing. God knows there's a need for a place where people can come and punch it out over determinism/indeterminism, compatability/incompatability, libertarian frew will/whatever else, open future/settled future, monergism/synergism, blah blah blah. I'm sorry to be down on it all folks, but what I need is a place where I can go and discuss the implications of and issues related to the open view. I wanna hang with folks who share an open worldview and wrestle with the implications. I don't wanna be in the middle of a converstaion about the implications of some point of the open view only to have somebody walk into the convo and wanna argue about whether LFW is really coherent or not, or tell me that my theology is all about inflating man's ego.
You determinists out there, I respect your views and love you in Christ. God bless ya one and all. I'm just worn out from ya. Not worn out from taking time to talk on a board about what concerns me. Worn out from talking on the board about what I know isn't gonna change me or you in a thousand years. Come on. Let's admit it. Be honest. 99% of our rangling has zero to do with really wanting to learn about the other person's views and has zero chance of changing either of us. Been there. Done that. We're familiar enough with each other's positions to know there ain't a chance we're crossing over. So let's just leave it at that, shall we? I mean, what's wrong with just leaving it there? Gosh you guys have worn me out. Sorry. But that's where I am.
Look, can we redesign the whole page layout so that three or four categories can be reserved for "whosoever will" can jump into and mudwrestle over these issues? Beat your brains out. It's a necessary thing to do FOR A WHILE. I did it. But gosh I don't wannt keep running into it. It wears on ya.
Can we design a few other rooms for confirmed, dyed-in-the-wool open theists who wanna talk over family issues without having to defend their shared assumptions on every page to people who wanna debate them? If that won't work, then I think what may happen is those who are tired of the constant conflict and who want to discuss their views without having to defend shared beliefs (i.e., the open view) every five minutes will find or create some other way to do so.
I think the board has hit the wall, or maybe I'VE hit the wall, and served its purpose. That's not to say some good things ain't happnin. They are. And I love it. I'm just needing something different and it can't be gotten here on the board as it stands.
Anybody else feeling what I'm feeling?
Tom
Edited by - TGB on 12/08/2004 12:21:55 AM
No, Tom, it's not just you.
At one time or another, everyone has experienced similar feelings.
Perhaps not here on this discussion board, but in other situations.
It's about...
HEALTHY <<< Boundaries >>>
In my humble opinion, the present issue is simply another manifestation of the age-old "boundaries" quandary.
I think that we, as (loving) "Christians," have a particularly difficult time finding the courage (as Tom just did), to say, "Enough! This is over the edge; it goes too far."
In other words, something or someone has violated our "boundaries."
I recall that some these issues were recently discussed on another CMV thread;
however, I believe that it's an ongoing dilemma (for many of us), that should be further explored:
What does it mean to HAVE "healthy boundaries"?
In this situation, I think that Tom demonstrated healthy boundaries by voicing the need for a safe place that is "free" of 'internet trolls,' who at times visit the CMV website to grind an ax.
What does it mean to SET "healthy boundaries"?
Can we feel comfortable stepping into that role?
How can we recognize when our boundaries are being crossed? When should we exert our right to set boundaries?
I think we've all been in situations when we become vaguely (or, acutely!) aware that a person was violating our personal boundaries. Sometimes, it takes years before we finally "get it;" and, by then we may be teetering on the edge of burn-out.
And, some people are so skilled & ingratiating in their ability to cross boundries that we aren't even aware that they are consuming our lives -- until a friend or family member lovingly points it out.
How can we work on OUR ability to set healthy boundaries with people who tend to be boundry-less?? (Is that a word?? If not, it should be...)
As healthy (and, loving) Christians, when do we have the right; and, responsibility, to say: "You're invading my personal space. You're encroaching upon my time, my space, my family, my values, my life. You're crossing my boundaries."
I'll open a thread on the topic of "healthy boundaries",
to see if anyone could share their own experiences in this area; and offer suggestions regarding how to go about developing the skill & courage, to set 'healthy boundaries'...
Peace & blessings,
<><
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