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DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 9/19/2003 5:03 AM (GMT -6)

I think it would be very apropos for WHC to sponsor a debate on the politics of abortion.

I think that one of the weights laying on the US right now is the high level of acrimony in our gov't and that the abortion debates/politics has polarized our country in a way that has only been surpassed by slavery in the past.

However, one can agree that abortions are wrong and to be discouraged and still disagree about what we politically should do about it.

It would be great to have a representative of MCCL, a moderate(perhaps, Tim Penny), and a representative of a Christian pro-choice activist group to have a debate on the subject of how politically we should deal with abortion or try to resolve our differences.

By sponsoring a debate like this and publicizing it, WHC would be performing a very important community service and hopefully jar Christians into conceptually separating their beliefs on what is right personal conduct regarding abortion and how they should strategize politically regarding abortion.

dlw

Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes."

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 9/19/2003 5:44 AM (GMT -6)

DLW,
With all due respect, your push to compromise on abortion politically is no different than compromising on any other moral issue like slavery. What you're proposing Christians do about abortion is the same thing as allowing a certain amount of slavery in order to gain political clout for what you consider "more important" issues. In God's eyes, there's never a good enough excuse to legalize the breaking of one of His moral laws - murder.

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 9/19/2003 5:48 AM (GMT -6)

I think WHC should sponsor a debate between DLW and Tigress followed by a wedding. Tongue

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 9/19/2003 5:51 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Tigress

DLW,
With all due respect, your push to compromise on abortion politically is no different than compromising on any other moral issue like slavery. What you're proposing Christians do about abortion is the same thing as allowing a certain amount of slavery in order to gain political clout for what you consider "more important" issues. In God's eyes, there's never a good enough excuse to legalize the breaking of one of His moral laws - murder.

Ah, but this is why a debate is needed. You can get rid of slavery, as we did, but that won't make everything right. To ensure the security and stability of the african-americans, you have to find a way that they can compromise with the powers that be in their former slave-holding states to get some protection for their property. This requires compromising with "the enemy", the former slaveholders. We did not do this after the Civil War and the social situation of the African-Americans worsened after they were made "free".

Compromise is always necessary. You can repeal Roe-V-Wade, but then you gotta fight it out at the state-level and even then you got to deal with all those who will be practicing "civil-disobedience" and still performing abortions. Then, you got to consider how pro-choicers will use the media to probably unfairly publicize their cause and seek to legalize abortion again.

In the end, you may end up at the compromise level I am advocating that we focus on politically, but with a huge waste of time and resources and a good heaping of acrimony as well.

If your gonna cast stones on the south for their system of slavery, perhaps, you should also consider how workers were treated in the North?

dlw

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 9/19/2003 5:54 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Laika

I think WHC should sponsor a debate between DLW and Tigress followed by a wedding.

And then followed by a hanging... Knife

dlw

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 9/19/2003 5:59 AM (GMT -6)

Hey, I'm not saying that abolishing slavery automatically caused black people to be treated fairly and decently by everyone in the U.S. I'm just saying that in regards to abortion, making it legal will only add to the already poor spiritual climate of our youth (as well as everyone else). They've been raised to believe that their ancestors were amoeba's that oozed out of the sea. They've been bombarded with media that shows no regard for the sanctity of life. They've watched as adults have aborted unborn babies that could have been themselves under the wrong circumstances and now you're telling me that legallizing abortion is somehow going to make the political playing field more level for Christians. Gimme a break! The more we water downs our morals, the less Christlike we become. You're playing right into the hands of the Enemy, my brother. Don't be deceived. God expects more from you than that.

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 9/19/2003 5:59 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by DLW

quote:
Originally posted by Laika

I think WHC should sponsor a debate between DLW and Tigress followed by a wedding.

And then followed by a hanging...

That's a "knife". K N I F E

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 9/19/2003 6:03 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Laika

quote:
Originally posted by DLW

quote:
Originally posted by Laika

I think WHC should sponsor a debate between DLW and Tigress followed by a wedding.

And then followed by a hanging...

That's a "knife". K N I F E

Laika,
Go lay down by your dish!

DLW,
Kiss my arse! Kisses

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 9/19/2003 6:30 AM (GMT -6)

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 9/19/2003 6:34 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Laika

Blecchhhh!!!! Dead

Bad dog!

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 9/19/2003 7:03 AM (GMT -6)

Can we please not turn this link into a Tigress and Laika link?

thankyou,
dlw

Triskal
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198

Posted 9/19/2003 7:14 AM (GMT -6)

I agree that WHC should sponsor some kind of debate. They need to take a more active position towards the issue of abortion. We always talk about not being afraid to confront issues, why haven't we confronted this issue? My mother works at a crisis pregnancy center and is always talking about how WHC needs to get more involved with this very controversial issue. I think sponsoring a debate would be the perfect way to do that.

"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 9/19/2003 7:17 AM (GMT -6)

I think this board has shown that there is much to debate on this issue still.

I think it would be important for such a debate to focus on the politics of abortion, cuz that is an area where disagreement is easier to accept and perhaps, it might avoid some of the acrimony that is prevalent over the subject.

Acrimony, unfortunately, is one of my favorite words these days..
dlw

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 9/19/2003 7:27 AM (GMT -6)

I think Greg Boyd prefers to keep the Church out of politics because our commmission is to make disciples of all nations. Do you really want WHC to end up being a soapbox for truly fanatical right-wingers or extremely radical leftists? The place could turn into a circus and the media frenzy would tarnish the name of Jesus through it all. The Church must be careful because we represent Him, and if we come across as bigots or too liberal, we do Him a great disservice.

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 9/19/2003 7:34 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Tigress

I think Greg Boyd prefers to keep the Church out of politics because our commmission is to make disciples of all nations. Do you really want WHC to end up being a soapbox for truly fanatical right-wingers or extremely radical leftists? The place could turn into a circus and the media frenzy would tarnish the name of Jesus through it all. The Church must be careful because we represent Him, and if we come across as bigots or too liberal, we do Him a great disservice.

Church/State relations have played an important role in Christianity throughout its history. Anabaptism was a response to official state persecution of a religious minority. There is strong historical evidence that Christianity is still vibrant in the US as opposed to Europe, because Churches supported the rights of common people here, instead of being a mouthpiece for those in power.

The point is that right now one of the biggest problems facing our country is the high level of acrimony in our gov't and abortion politics has contributed to that. A debate would allow all sides to hear each other and perhaps understand each other better and that would contribute to reducing the level of acrimony in our gov't and put us in a better position to deal with the many serious issues that loom on the horizon for our country.

If that isn't part of Greg Boyd's Calling then I'll just have to say shame on him and shame on WHC.

dlw

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 9/19/2003 7:39 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Tigress

Hey, I'm not saying that abolishing slavery automatically caused black people to be treated fairly and decently by everyone in the U.S. I'm just saying that in regards to abortion, making it legal will only add to the already poor spiritual climate of our youth (as well as everyone else). They've been raised to believe that their ancestors were amoeba's that oozed out of the sea. They've been bombarded with media that shows no regard for the sanctity of life. They've watched as adults have aborted unborn babies that could have been themselves under the wrong circumstances and now you're telling me that legallizing abortion is somehow going to make the political playing field more level for Christians. Gimme a break! The more we water downs our morals, the less Christlike we become. You're playing right into the hands of the Enemy, my brother. Don't be deceived. God expects more from you than that.

DLW,
Did you read this post of mine? It was just before the ones between Laika and me. What is your response to this?

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 9/19/2003 7:48 AM (GMT -6)

The purpose of this link for me is to suggest a debate, not enter a debate here.

I'm sorry for giving you the wrong impression, but I don't really want to debate this issue here.
dlw

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 9/19/2003 8:00 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by DLW

The purpose of this link for me is to suggest a debate, not enter a debate here.

I'm sorry for giving you the wrong impression, but I don't really want to debate this issue here.
dlw

Mmm-hmm. Deep down, you just know I'm right! Wink

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 9/19/2003 8:02 AM (GMT -6)

Either that or I know you are a nitwit Blush

.
dlw

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 9/19/2003 8:25 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by DLW

Either that or I know you are a nitwit.
dlw

Man, it's a good thing you're thousands of miles away! Flame2

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 9/19/2003 8:47 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Tigress

quote:
Originally posted by DLW

Either that or I know you are a nitwit.
dlw

Man, it's a good thing you're thousands of miles away!

Actually, I was just thinking the exact same thing...
dlw

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 9/19/2003 9:13 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by DLW

quote:
Originally posted by Tigress

quote:
Originally posted by DLW

Either that or I know you are a nitwit.
dlw

Man, it's a good thing you're thousands of miles away!

Actually, I was just thinking the exact same thing...
dlw

Killjoy!

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 9/19/2003 9:15 AM (GMT -6)

Sycophant! Evil Tongue

dlw

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 9/19/2003 10:36 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by DLW

Sycophant!
dlw

Oh, whatEVer Mr. I-post-huge-articles-on-politics-and-economics-so-I-must-be-supersmart Wetzell. If it annoys you so much, why do you keep on engaging me in all our flirtatious verbal sparring? Big Smile

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 9/19/2003 10:43 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Tigress

quote:
Originally posted by DLW

Sycophant!
dlw

Oh, whatEVer Mr. I-post-huge-articles-on-politics-and-economics-so-I-must-be-supersmart Wetzell. If it annoys you so much, why do you keep on engaging me in all our flirtatious verbal sparring?

It is an amusing diversion to exchange barbs with one such as you.

It certainly isn't meant to be flirtatious. That's the problem with internet communication, it is too difficult to read the mood of the poster and what they mean in posting something.

That is why you need to spend more time doing face-to-face contact with real guys!!!! If I'm in the US, I'll come and sing the song, "But not for me" at your wedding... Shy

dlw

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