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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > John Piper's Response to the Tsunami | Forum Quick Jump
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 1/4/2005 8:36 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Laika: Scripturally, your thesis is bankrupt.
You've not shown any mass, wanton destruction done by Jesus, the very image of the living God.
Spen: All seven of the seals, which result in mass destruction and the deaths of billions of people with the destruction of a large part of the entire Earth is loosed by Jesus who is declared the ONLY one in all of heaven and Earth that is worthy to open the seals and ordain this destruction.
This Lamb of God who opens the seals is the very image of the living God.
Remember the blood on the lintel at the start of the Exodus?
due to righteousness, pass over this household
Remember the ark? Due to the righteousness of Noah, the ark passes through the destruction.
Remember Rahab joining the vessel Israel? Due to this, she passed through the judgment.
You show examples where God, due to complete lack of righteousness, can destroy masses of people. This is revelation for these specific instances.
No revelation yet pertaining to the tsunami.
There's a rainbow at the end of every storm that's God's promise that He will never again destroy masses of people (all unrighteous) by water. How much more will He NOT destroy masses of people, some clothed with Christs' righteousness, by water!
Where's an explanation for God's divided house? God destoying masses of people with water (against His promise!) versus us opposing God by suppressing His body count by fighting against infection, disease and starvation?
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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spenlake
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Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 1/4/2005 9:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
You have complete:
1. lack of revelation
2. lack of logic
but otherwise, Satan is enjoying you're laying the blame on God
You have not answered the question regarding the children that God destroyed in the Flood, Canaan, Sodom, or Jerusalem. Were these children more or less sinful than those killed in the tsunami?
It seems to me that until you can prove scripturally that the infants of the flood, Canaan, Sodom, etc. were more guilty than the infant victims of the tsunami, your logic is no better than mine.
1. You admit that God detroyed the infants of the Flood, Sodom, etc.
2. You will not admit that God could have destroyed the inflants of the tsunami because that would make Him "bloodthirsty" and divided.
3. Thus, infants minutes or seconds old before the flood were more guilty than those infants destroyed in the tsunami or God is divided?
Where is my lack of revelation or lack of logic worse than yours? How is stating that God was responsible for the deaths of the infants of the tsunami less onerous than your blaming God for the deaths of the infants of the flood? Until you prove that the infants were different, you seem to be afflicted by your own statement, "otherwise, Satan is enjoying you're laying the blame on God."
Perhaps it is time to move to an OV ONLY site and avoid such issues altogether?
Spen Lake
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JEE
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| Posted 1/4/2005 10:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Ahem!
I am an Open Theist who does not deny that God at least in some cases brings horrendous temporal catastrophe on mankind. From Noah's flood to the awful judgments depicted in Revelation, GOD is revealed in Scripture to in some cases wreak utter havoc on mankind.
Jesus wasn't sent to destroy the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. However, there is coming a day when HE will judge the world in righteousness.
I don't think we have enough information to say whether the recent tsunami was a direct judgment from God or not. However, since I affirm the idea of an age of accountability (and consequently all innocent children instantly go to heaven), as well as the fact that all people KNOW enough of about God to know they should serve him (Rom. 1), and that everyone also has a God-given conscience by which they intuitively KNOW right from wrong, and that "all are without excuse," (Rom. 1) and consequently no sinner deserves even one breath more than he already has been granted, it does not follow, at least in my view, that anyone who died in last week's exceedingly terrible disaster somehow was done wrong by God in it.
All of us sinners deserve hell, which is far worse than a tsunami. And God will judge each according to his deeds.
While I certainly understand that the created order is cursed as a result of Adam's Rebellion (ever wonder why they call it "the Fall?") and that natural disasters may in fact find their origin in the curse GOD placed on the earth in Gen. 3, I must say I have a lot of difficulty understanding how those who claim this could ONLY be Satan's work can honestly say in the same breath that God is Almighty and the Ruler of the Universe.
Isaiah 45:6
That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun
That there is no one besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other,
7 The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.
Lord, have mercy on us all.
John
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Laika
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Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 1/4/2005 10:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
You have not answered the question regarding the children that God destroyed in the Flood, Canaan, Sodom, or Jerusalem. Were these children more or less sinful than those killed in the tsunami?
I did.
the Flood
Genesis 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7 The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.
11 Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.
13 Then God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth.
God very carefully distinguishs Noah from the rest of the world. The entire world is corrupt, "all flesh had corrupted their way".
In order to totally destroy the unrighteous, God takes the time to remove the righteous BEFORE He destroys everything else.
Where's your revelation that all those destroyed by the tsunami were totally corrupt? You don't have any.
Where's your revelation that God removed the righteous from danger before He destroyed all the others? You don't have any.
the land of Canaan
Genesis 15:16 "Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete."
Where's your revelation that the iniquity of the Indian Ocean coastal dwellers and visitors is complete? You don't have any.
Hebrews 11:31 By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.
Where's your revelation that God removed the faithful ones from the coast before He supposedly sent the tsunami? You don't have any.
And your lack of logic?
Oppose God's supposed punishment by suppressing His body count.
1. That's contradictory to what you think God is doing.
2. It contradicts scripture by supposing God is divided in His purposes, destruction on one hand, "mercy" on the other.
An OV only site? Yeah, so we can move on beyond the unscriptural, incoherent, illogical ideas that you keep bringing again and again...
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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Truth Aficionado
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Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 1/4/2005 11:02 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
(and consequently all innocent children instantly go to heaven)
John, where in Scripture does it say that all children (get out of jail free card) go straight to heaven? | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 1/4/2005 11:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Deut. 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands.
10 But those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction;
he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him.
Deut. 30:15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
Isaiah 10:23 The Lord, the LORD Almighty, will carry out the destruction decreed upon the whole land.
Hosea 7:13 Woe to them,
because they have strayed from me!
Destruction to them,
because they have rebelled against me!
I long to redeem them
but they speak lies against me.
Jonah 3:10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.
2 Pet. 3:5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
Proverbs 14:32 When calamity comes, the wicked are brought down, but even in death the righteous have a refuge.
_____________
John
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 1/4/2005 11:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Spen,
It seems to me, that the fate of infants, children and the unborn is not clear in scripture. On the contrary, the target of God’s wrath has been very clear in the past. Do you have a revelation of God’s wrath for those killed in the tsunami or are you claiming it’s a sign of the times?
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 1/4/2005 11:16 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
(and consequently all innocent children instantly go to heaven)
John, where in Scripture does it say that all children (get out of jail free card) go straight to heaven?
Hi Mark,
Like many doctrines (such as the Trinity, the existence of God, etc.), it is inferred from several scriptures, though obviously not expressly stated. For example, Jesus said of children, "of such is the kingdom of God." Paul said in Romans that "by the law is the knowledge of sin." 1 John says "sin is a transgression of the law." Romans 9 and Isaiah 7 says, "before the child will know to choose the good and refuse the evil..."
The age of accountability idea is inferred from the fact that sin is a voluntary transgression of a known law. It wasn't until good ol' Augustine started promoting his ideas of God, sin, and man that any Christian theologian ever even suggested that God tosses little babies into the fires of hell. The idea of the damnation of infants derives directly from Augustine's idea of Original Sin, absolute predeterminism, and the Manichean idea he held on to that that which is physical (i.e., human mortal bodies) is by definition evil.
John
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 1/4/2005 11:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Well then with that said; let’s keep the woman and children out of this. Sorry for the interruption, carry on with the war.  | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 1/4/2005 11:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Genesis 9:
11 "I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth."
12 God said, "This is the sign of the covenant which I am making between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all successive generations;
13 I set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth.
14 "It shall come about, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow will be seen in the cloud,
15 and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16 "When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth."
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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JEE
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Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 1/4/2005 11:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
(and consequently all innocent children instantly go to heaven)
John, where in Scripture does it say that all children (get out of jail free card) go straight to heaven?
One may just as rightly ask where in Scripture does it say that children go straight to hell?
This begs the question of what merits God's condemnation and wrath, simply being born human or SIN?
Scripture reveals that God judges people for their DEEDS, not for their nature:
Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
Rev. 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John 5:28“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out–those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
How can a baby be guilty of moral evil? What kind of "benevolent" God would damn someone for something they couldn't help? (In this case, being born).
John
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Laika
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| Posted 1/4/2005 11:41 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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spenlake
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Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 1/4/2005 11:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika: He's provided nothing. Nothing showing the unrighteousness of all those killed, infants or adults. Note: God removed the righteous before He brought total destruction on everyone else. spenlake has provided nothing.
Spen:
as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
Even for those who are "righteous" through the gospel, God can send His servants into places where He knows they will suffer and die.
1. He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
2. “For this reason also the wisdom of God said, ‘I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute.
Spen Lake
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JEE
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Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 1/4/2005 11:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Laika,
I personally don't have enough information about this specific disaster to say whether it was a direct judgment of God or not. I am only saying that it possibly was, based on the many passages in Scripture in which God does this sort of thing.
I am also simply saying that it seems to me that your view wants to ascribe to Satan a level of power that the New Testament denies he has. Hebrews 2 says that Christ "destroyed" him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. 1 John 3 says that Christ came for this very purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. Jesus, before going to the Cross, said that "the prince of this world is JUDGED."
While I certainly realize that the kingdom has not yet come in its fullness on the earth, and that Satan still goes about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour, it is not clear to me from Scripture that Satan somehow has the ability to cause earthquakes and tsunamis.
John
quote:
Originally posted by Laika
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Where's your revelation of this tsunami? How did God bring the faithful through the waters?
Hebrews 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.
Where's your revelation of this tsunami? How did God bring the faithful through the waters?
Hebrews 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.
31 By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.
Where's your revelation of this tsunami? How did God bring the faithful through the waters?
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 1/4/2005 12:02 PM (GMT -6) | | I’ve listened to Mr. Piper on the radio quite often as I commute. I find him to be very articulate and to quite often preach a good message. But, the one area I have found him to fail miserably (outside of his attacks on Boyd) is that of counseling victims of grief. Mr. Piper and his sidekick told a story of a Christian woman that was suffering badly (a loss of a love one or something) and they came off very cold with no true answers for this woman. Their message was basically that’s God for you, deal with it.  | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 1/4/2005 12:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I am not endorsing Mr. Piper in what I have been posting. I find that there are parts of his message that seem hyper-Calvinist to me. I have been at his church and I did hear the gospel preached. I have also been at Dr. Boyd's church and also heard the gospel preached.
The issue with these posts has to do with the wrath of God and God's sovreignty, not some battle between Piper and Boyd.
Boyd was a side note, sorry, I thought the issue was John Piper's Response to the Tsunami. | | Back to Top | | |
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