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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > John Piper's Response to the Tsunami | Forum Quick Jump
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 1/4/2005 12:17 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
How can a baby be guilty of moral evil? What kind of "benevolent" God would damn someone for something they couldn't help? (In this case, being born).
I’m not arguing the fate of children, John. I think we all hope they are safely tucked away in the arms of God’s love. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 1/4/2005 6:41 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
And then there's the total incoherence of piper's contradiction that we should oppose God's supposed punishment by suppressing the body count. piper thinks God has a divided house, at odds with itself. One hand destroys, one hand brings "comfort" for the destruction the other hand did. Completely unscriptural and completely idiotic.
It’s strange that some people believe in a multifaceted God that sends a tsunami to kill their fellow Christians and children and then turn and pray to this same God for help. It reminds me of the poor innocent Russians who thought Joseph Stalin was going to save them from the very death camps the Soviet Dictator sent them too. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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| Posted 1/5/2005 2:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by vangobel
quote:
Originally posted by Laika
Logically, your thesis is bankrupt.
You've not shown how we are not opposing God and suppressing His body count by bringing 'mercy'.
Scripturally, your thesis is bankrupt.
You've not shown any mass, wanton destruction done by Jesus, the very image of the living God.
You've presented two examples where God revealed the reason for total annihilation, total absence of righteousness. Yet you've not presented revelation for this tsunami.
I'm on the side of God's mercy and Jesus in Hebrews 1 being the exact essence of Yahweh OT God....showing us the Father comes to "heal, help and redeem"
This circular Augustine Reformed reasoning of wanton destruction and judgement is not found in the gospels.....
and oops! we have a little over $2 billion dollars God has worked in the nations to bring aide to SE Asia.
That is gonna do ALOT of Good for starving orphans and I hope Yahweh is ok with that...er....I mean God the "father of the fatherless"
 vangobel
God is love and that's allright with me!!
All examples in scripture of mass destruction exhibit several characteristics, God's 'modus operandi':
1. Removal of God's people from the group before the destruction.
this is important, it shows God WILL NOT destroy His people, EVER
2. A reason given why this group of people are being wiped out, distinguishing them from all the other groups of people.
the Flood
1. Noah and his family on the ark
2. The earth was exceedingly wicked
Sodom
1. Lot and his family
2. Sodom had no righteous in it except Lot
Jerico/Canaan
1. Rahab and her family
2. The wickedness of the Amorite was full Gen.15
the final destruction after judgment
1. all the sheep are 'covered'
2. they're the goats!
They have failed to show 1 or 2 for this tsunami. It does not follow the modus operandi of God.
And they posit God's house divided. God contradicting Himself. Us opposing God's supposed destruction by bringing mercy and suppressing the body count.
They have failed to prove that God is wantonly destructive.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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Tom
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| Posted 1/5/2005 2:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey all-
I think this belongs here. I put it over on another thread too. Ooops.
I guess I'm still too shocked over this to be able to analyze it yet.
I read yesterday about a 20-day old baby who survived on a matress. The baby was later found crying, but fine. Amazing. But then there's the story of an entire congregation that was in the middle of their Sunday worship when they were all swept away and died. An entire church...while worshipping God...was swept away and died. I'm incapable of believing God unconditionally predetermined this in eternity. Call me whatever, fine. I'm simply incapable of this belief of Piper's.
Laika, earlier on another thread I think you reminded Mephi that according to his view this tsunami was the one girl on the track which God compatabilistically brought about by switching the track to avoid 10 girls on another track. But that's not really accurate. The point about the tracks in the Carlie thread was only to say that WHEN God has such options available to him to work compatabilistically (within the confines of LFW and solidified character, etc.) it makes sense to say that his switching the track is entailed by his "doing all he can do to prevent evil and to minimize it where he can't prevent it." But such options aren't always available. I imagine some events are, as they are, apart from any available track-switching, unsuccessfully opposed by God.
But that's moral evil. I'd like sometime to work this out with regard to natural evil. Maybe the Carlie thread will apply. Maybe not. I don't know. But it's not the case with every evil event we see (moral or natural) that the event is automatically the lesser of several evil options God compatabilistically brought about. Sometimes there are no other tracks available down which to redirect the train. You either successfully stop it or you don't.
More later!
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
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| Posted 1/5/2005 3:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika: quote:
All examples in scripture of mass destruction exhibit several characteristics, God's 'modus operandi':
1. Removal of God's people from the group before the destruction.
this is important, it shows God WILL NOT destroy His people, EVER
2. A reason given why this group of people are being wiped out, distinguishing them from all the other groups of people.
the Flood
1. Noah and his family on the ark
2. The earth was exceedingly wicked
Sodom
1. Lot and his family
2. Sodom had no righteous in it except Lot
Jerico/Canaan
1. Rahab and her family
2. The wickedness of the Amorite was full Gen.15
the final destruction after judgment
1. all the sheep are 'covered'
2. they're the goats!
They have failed to show 1 or 2 for this tsunami. It does not follow the modus operandi of God.
And they have they have God's house divided. God contradicting Himself.
They have failed to prove that God is wantonly destructive
Laika,
Do you maintain that the infants of the flood, Sodom, Canaan, and Jerusalem (you forgot that one) are more wicked than the infants of Thailand?
I agree with you that God does not "judge" his righteous with the wicked. God does, however, willingly send His righteous to death as we see in the passage, "God said, ‘I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute." God also sent His Son to us knowing that we would kill Him. Why is it not possible that God allows death in which some of those who die are His servants, like the apostles, and some who die are the unsaved?
Lazarus was not more evil than those around him and yet Jesus allowed him to die. James was thrown into prison and killed by Herod but God sent an angel to rescue Peter from prison. God rescued some of His servants, "others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, £they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated."
Why did only some have miracles? I don't know. I can tell you that those who died in faith were not judged even though they may have died along with the unbelievers.
Jeremiah, God's true prophet, was carried into Egypt against his will by the sinners and died with the sinners in Egypt where they had carried him along with all those who disobeyed God. He shared in their death but not their judgment. Not all who were taken in judgement to Babylon were "sinners" as we see in Daniel. Yet they all shared the same temporal experience. There were 7,000 righteous men in Israel that experienced the judgment of the draught during the time of Elijah and there were righteous widows that were not miraculously cared for as the wido of a gentile. There were righteous lepers in Israel but God only healed a pagan named Namaan.
Jonathan, the friend of David, was righteous and yet he was struck down in death with his father Saul. Why? Because God had ordained that this would happen.
God will never allow His people to experience death ETERNALLY. He will send them to their death now but this is not destruction. He sent His own Son to His death, but this also was not ultimately for destruction - He is now the firstborn of the dead. We have hope for eternal life because God raised Him.
Spen Lake
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Laika
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| Posted 1/5/2005 3:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Genesis 18:
20 And the LORD said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.
21 "I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know."
22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD.
23 Abraham came near and said, "Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?
24 "Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it?
25 "Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?"
26 So the LORD said, "If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account."
27 And Abraham replied, "Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes.
28 "Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?" And He said, "I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there."
29 He spoke to Him yet again and said, "Suppose forty are found there?" And He said, "I will not do it on account of the forty."
30 Then he said, "Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?" And He said, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."
31 And he said, "Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?" And He said, "I will not destroy it on account of the twenty."
32 Then he said, "Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?" And He said, "I will not destroy it on account of the ten."
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 1/5/2005 3:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
I read yesterday about a 20-day old baby who survived on a matress. The baby was later found crying, but fine. Amazing.
They should name the baby "Moses".
Exodus 2:10 (NRSV)
When the child grew up, she brought him to Pharaoh's daughter, and she took him as her son. She named him Moses, "because," she said, "I drew him out of the water."
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One Love
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| Posted 1/5/2005 4:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika:
quote:
TGB, I invite to abandon the defense of a broken down analogy, that no one cares about, and instead defend the character of God against all these character assassins!
Are you serious? God's character needs to be defended now? And how benevolent of you to take that on. Wow. You sound just like a reverse version of Bruce Ware and 'nem. Congrats...and good luck. 
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Tom:
quote:
I read yesterday about a 20-day old baby who survived on a matress. The baby was later found crying, but fine. Amazing. But then there's the story of an entire congregation that was in the middle of their Sunday worship when they were all swept away and died. An entire church...while worshipping God...was swept away and died. I'm incapable of believing God unconditionally predetermined this in eternity.
Sucks, doesn't it? People dying of a natural disaster...while praising the all-powerful God. I don't think people are really taking into account the nature of this...within the open view. With this event, we see JUST how limited God is. God did all that he could...and couldn't prevent a natural disaster from killing over 150,000+ people. This should be a wake-up call for people who want to assert the "power of prayer"...at least with respect to protection.
See, either way you go...God's in trouble. On one extreme, it's ultimately God's will that this happened...and it was actualized. On another, this WASN'T God's will in ANY way...and God did absolutely everything in his power...and what we see is the result. Pretty damn weak looking God, right? This damn sure doesn't look like the God who could do this stop the earth's rotation, call lightning down from the sky (to kill a person touching the Ark)...or this...
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Numbers 16
1 Korah son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and certain Reubenites-Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth-became insolent [a] 2 and rose up against Moses. With them were 250 Israelite men, well-known community leaders who had been appointed members of the council. 3 They came as a group to oppose Moses and Aaron and said to them, "You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the LORD is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the LORD's assembly?"
4 When Moses heard this, he fell facedown. 5 Then he said to Korah and all his followers: "In the morning the LORD will show who belongs to him and who is holy, and he will have that person come near him. The man he chooses he will cause to come near him. 6 You, Korah, and all your followers are to do this: Take censers 7 and tomorrow put fire and incense in them before the LORD . The man the LORD chooses will be the one who is holy. You Levites have gone too far!"
8 Moses also said to Korah, "Now listen, you Levites! 9 Isn't it enough for you that the God of Israel has separated you from the rest of the Israelite community and brought you near himself to do the work at the LORD's tabernacle and to stand before the community and minister to them? 10 He has brought you and all your fellow Levites near himself, but now you are trying to get the priesthood too. 11 It is against the LORD that you and all your followers have banded together. Who is Aaron that you should grumble against him?"
12 Then Moses summoned Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab. But they said, "We will not come! 13 Isn't it enough that you have brought us up out of a land flowing with milk and honey to kill us in the desert? And now you also want to lord it over us? 14 Moreover, you haven't brought us into a land flowing with milk and honey or given us an inheritance of fields and vineyards. Will you gouge out the eyes of these men? No, we will not come!"
15 Then Moses became very angry and said to the LORD , "Do not accept their offering. I have not taken so much as a donkey from them, nor have I wronged any of them."
16 Moses said to Korah, "You and all your followers are to appear before the LORD tomorrow-you and they and Aaron. 17 Each man is to take his censer and put incense in it-250 censers in all-and present it before the LORD . You and Aaron are to present your censers also." 18 So each man took his censer, put fire and incense in it, and stood with Moses and Aaron at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 19 When Korah had gathered all his followers in opposition to them at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting, the glory of the LORD appeared to the entire assembly. 20 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 21 "Separate yourselves from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once."
22 But Moses and Aaron fell facedown and cried out, "O God, God of the spirits of all mankind, will you be angry with the entire assembly when only one man sins?"
23 Then the LORD said to Moses, 24 "Say to the assembly, 'Move away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.' "
25 Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram, and the elders of Israel followed him. 26 He warned the assembly, "Move back from the tents of these wicked men! Do not touch anything belonging to them, or you will be swept away because of all their sins." 27 So they moved away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram. Dathan and Abiram had come out and were standing with their wives, children and little ones at the entrances to their tents.
28 Then Moses said, "This is how you will know that the LORD has sent me to do all these things and that it was not my idea: 29 If these men die a natural death and experience only what usually happens to men, then the LORD has not sent me. 30 But if the LORD brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the grave, [c] then you will know that these men have treated the LORD with contempt."
31 As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them, with their households and all Korah's men and all their possessions. 33 They went down alive into the grave, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community. 34 At their cries, all the Israelites around them fled, shouting, "The earth is going to swallow us too!"
35 And fire came out from the LORD and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense.
36 The LORD said to Moses, 37 "Tell Eleazar son of Aaron, the priest, to take the censers out of the smoldering remains and scatter the coals some distance away, for the censers are holy- 38 the censers of the men who sinned at the cost of their lives. Hammer the censers into sheets to overlay the altar, for they were presented before the LORD and have become holy. Let them be a sign to the Israelites."
39 So Eleazar the priest collected the bronze censers brought by those who had been burned up, and he had them hammered out to overlay the altar, 40 as the LORD directed him through Moses. This was to remind the Israelites that no one except a descendant of Aaron should come to burn incense before the LORD , or he would become like Korah and his followers.
41 The next day the whole Israelite community grumbled against Moses and Aaron. "You have killed the LORD's people," they said.
42 But when the assembly gathered in opposition to Moses and Aaron and turned toward the Tent of Meeting, suddenly the cloud covered it and the glory of the LORD appeared. 43 Then Moses and Aaron went to the front of the Tent of Meeting, 44 and the LORD said to Moses, 45 "Get away from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once." And they fell facedown.
46 Then Moses said to Aaron, "Take your censer and put incense in it, along with fire from the altar, and hurry to the assembly to make atonement for them. Wrath has come out from the LORD ; the plague has started." 47 So Aaron did as Moses said, and ran into the midst of the assembly. The plague had already started among the people, but Aaron offered the incense and made atonement for them. 48 He stood between the living and the dead, and the plague stopped. 49 But 14,700 people died from the plague, in addition to those who had died because of Korah. 50 Then Aaron returned to Moses at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting, for the plague had stopped.
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Is all this just bull#*&$??? Is God powerful enough to create a localized fissure in the earth to swallow people AND CLOSE IT RIGHT BACK UP...and bring a plague that kills thousands of people on the spot...but NOT powerful enough to quell a friggin tectonic plate movement and subsequent tsunami??? Is God NOT powerful enough to rescue ANYONE in a church full of people praising HIS name??? (and make no mistake, this wasn't the ONLY church destroyed in this!)
Again, is this all just a bunch of bull@#$%??? What the #&@# is all this??? Please tell me!
I can understand why some people would rather have God "mysterious" than weak!
Hmph. Yeah, let's process this.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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One Love
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| Posted 1/5/2005 4:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Ok. Let's get real. Rant time.
Are we really expected to believe that God is powerful enough to do even HALF of the stuff mentioned in the Old Testament...and stuff in the New Testament (like stopping a storm with some WORDS and thangs)...and THEN turn around and believe that God was COMPLETELY UNABLE to bring the loss of live lower than the current talley of 150,000+?
Are we really expected to believe such utter nonsense? We'd be better off denying some of the miracles in the Bible...rather believing such foolishness. What "creational factors" completely outside of God's will could allow for such a belief? Is Satan and the demons REALLY so powerful as to cause so much "natural" evil...among the praying believers even?? What USE is prayer then? What USE is the belief that God can protect? Heck, we don't even know if God saved that ONE baby. For all open view theists know, it could have been sheer friggin luck!
Surely you guys are thinking of this, right?
How could ANYONE "believe God" for any friggin thing like healing from disease, financial breakthrough, or ANY such thing...if God is, in fact, so weak and limited that he COULD NOT stop this tsunami from killing so many??? How could ANYONE "believe God" can heal terminal cancer, break emotional bondages or any such thing at will? If anything, it would seem that God gets LUCKY...just like we do.
Is this the God who creates a way out of no way? Is this the God who claims to be the powerful being who owns the cattle of a thousand hills? Would YOU trust this God to protect you crossing the fu#kin' street, for crying out loud???
Think about this, dammit!
Sigh...rant over...I think. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 1/5/2005 4:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Daniel 10:
11 He said to me, "O Daniel, man of high esteem, understand the words that I am about to tell you and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you " And when he had spoken this word to me, I stood up trembling.
12 Then he said to me, "Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to your words.
13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.
A God not meticulously controlling this world.
If God sent the tsunami, then we're opposing Him and suppressing His body count by steming infection, disease, starvation. His house is divided.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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One Love
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| Posted 1/5/2005 5:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Powell shock at Aceh destruction
Not many buildings are left standing in Meulaboh
US Secretary of State Colin Powell has visited Indonesia's Aceh province to see for himself the devastation caused by the Indian Ocean tsunami.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4147853.stm
"I have been in war and I have been through a number of hurricanes, tornados and other relief operations, but I have never seen anything like this."
--Colin Powell | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 1/5/2005 5:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika:
quote:
A God not meticulously controlling this world.
If God sent the tsunami, then we're opposing Him and suppressing His body count by steming infection, disease, starvation. His house is divided.
Answer my questions, man. Do you believe that Numbers 16 happened? That God has that kind of mind-boggling power? Moreover, do you really believe God is so weak that he ABSOLUTELY, BY NO MEANS could have stemmed the destruction and loss of life anymore than what we see..even while trying EVERYTHING GOD POSSIBLY COULD?
Do you believe this? | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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| Posted 1/5/2005 5:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
Laika:
quote:
A God not meticulously controlling this world.
If God sent the tsunami, then we're opposing Him and suppressing His body count by steming infection, disease, starvation. His house is divided.
Answer my questions, man. Do you believe that Numbers 16 happened? That God has that kind of mind-boggling power? Moreover, do you really believe God is so weak that he ABSOLUTELY, BY NO MEANS could have stemmed the destruction and loss of life anymore than what we see..even while trying EVERYTHING GOD POSSIBLY COULD?
Do you believe this?
Yes, Numbers 16 really happened. God destroyed only those responsible.
Just as He only destroyed the wicked in the flood, at Sodom and Gomorrah, at Jerico and in Canaan and in the final judgement.
Each time, He removed His people before He destroyed the rest.
This tsunami does not carry the hallmark of God's righteous judgement on wicked people. It carries the hallmark of a vicious, arbitrary, capricious being who we can oppose because the being is not only our enemy but the enemy of God as well.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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One Love
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| Posted 1/5/2005 5:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika,
You didn't answer all my questions, buddy. I'll ask them again...
Moreover, do you really believe God is so weak that he ABSOLUTELY, BY NO MEANS could have stemmed the destruction and loss of life anymore than what we see..even while trying EVERYTHING GOD POSSIBLY COULD?
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